I have became the very happy owner of an english hammerless double rifle, sold by Army & Navy CSL in London. I have tried to find out some background information such as year of manufacturing and so on.. Unfortunately I have had less luck, my rifles serial number does not match the A&N record books wich is kept by the University of Glasgow.

Some facts:
#7467 on several marks.
#11033 on the barrels(should be A&N No).
London proof stamps
cal .303Brit
Typical Webley&Scott double rifle reciever.
http://bildbanken.nordiq.net/pic/ems225821.jpg

Anyone with any idea how to go on? Or where to find Internet published pictures of British proof stamps? Anyone with a similar rifle from A&N.....

Martin

Martin,

I have several A&N doubles. If you can email me 2 pictures - one of the proof marks on the barrel flats, one of the toplever including the barrel / action join, I should be able to tell you roughly what year it was made (or a range of years).

The gun looks like a Webley Long Bar action - it will be a Webely Screw grip or PHV 1 Action but can't tell you until you send the photo of the toplever etc. Gun is of a higher grade as it has intercepting safety's on the fences.

The A&N Serial No of the gun will be the one on the trigger guard and other places (#7467 on several marks??).
Is this what you thought was the serial number or did you use #11033 on the barrels ?

Hope this helps. Look forward to you email.

500 Nitro

Martin
That is a nice looking double. Have you shot/developed a load for it yet? Many of the 303 doubles were regulated for 215 grain bullets. Is the load marked on the bbl flats.
Is the scope in good shape, if not there are companies that can refiburish it. A scope on a double really adds to its field ability.
I hope you plan to hunt with it.
These British doubles belong on hunting trips.

Did you check out both serial numbers with the University? It is possible that the gun could have been rebarreled or possibly sleeved by another maker or possibly by A&N. Not having the records correspond makes this interesting.

What name is on the action and does it match what is on the barrel. Do the proof marks on the barrel flats correspond to the ones on the action? Does it say sleeved or have any signs of a sleeved gun?

I assume it is a Birmingham proofed gun and if made after about 1921, it will likely have a coded marking that will give an idea of the date of proof.

Looking at proofmarks can be interesting.

Thank you for your interest!

500NE - check your mailbox.

NE 450No2 -No, I have not developed a load yet but I have tried with Winchester 180gr and Norma 150gr cartridges. Winchester makes double shots between 12 an 30 mm at 80 meters and with Norma 30-50mm. Isn't that amazing!!
I agree, a rifle like this is built for hunting. I will use it on moose, pig and deer. I shot a wild boar two weeks ago with this rifle, worked great!!

Richard - Both numbers exists in the record books but tells that it is a 12 bore shotgun from 1879 or 1882. It is impossible to fit a 12 bore barrelset to this thin reciever so it has not been converted and I dont think it has been rebarreled(but you never know).
I forward a link to a picture of the stamps.
http://bildbanken.nordiq.net/pic/ems093211.jpg

Martin

I have a description of British proof marks that cover the period after 1925 through 1953, and the "new ones" that started in 1954. Most of your proof marks are a little different that those in use in 1925. You rifle looks like it was proofed before then. Your proof marks look like those in use by the London Proof House as the ones for the Birmingham Proof House from 1925 foward are quite a bit different. Wish I had copies of before 1925. When 400 Nitro sees this thread he may be able to give you the correct info.

Are your firing pins leaving those indentions on the bottom of the ejectors, or were the ejectors made that way to make pushing the firing pins back in the action face easier?

Glad you are already hunting with the rifle.

I read these as London proof marks between 1904 and 1925.

Do you have pictures of the action flats, showing the proof marks?

NE 450 No 2
-First I thought that the firing pins had worn the marks in the ejector but they have not, it is made so originally. The pins have no spring that pulls the them back so without the "intentions" the pins would get stuck and broken. Between 1904 and 1925 sound very likely.

Richard
- The only marks on eaach side of the action flats is a V with a crown above, same type as on the barrel flats.

Martin

The following is the reply and email from Martin. He may have made a link t the pictures he sent
by email.

The action is the standard Webley Long Bar Screw Grip action with intercepting sears / safety's.

As you said, the toplever shaft is a threaded which is visible by looking into
the hole where the doll head is fitted. The OTHER way of telling a Webley Screw Grip
is by the SPADE shape of the Dolls Head AND that it touches / intersects with the TopLever
Spindle. Very few actions I know of do this. Most have metal some action metal between the
dolls head and the Toplever Spindle.

A PHV1 Action is also made by Webley but has a dolls head that is hard
to describe. See attached photo of both the Screw Grip and PHV1 actions side by side
and from above.

Serial No's

Number11033 is only marked on one place, between the barrel flats and the
forend locking hook - I would Guess this is the Webeley No and the 7467
number that is marked under the sight blade, under the forend lever, in
the forend wood but not on the action. is the ARMY & NAVY No.
The fact that the Toplever has no blung left on it could mean that the
trigger gaurd is worn and the number has worn off (unlikely) so it may
never have had the number on it. Suggest try University of Glasgow with
the 7467 number.

Action - Crown over V on the water table (which you refer to as
barrel plane) is the LONDON inspection or "View" mark which is applied
after FINAL proof.

Barrel Flats - in order on your photo from Breech end to Muzzle end

The Lion on a line above curved letters (my description) is LONDON
preliminary black powder proof.

Crown over V - as explained above

Crown over what looks like CP - Final Black Powder Proof Mark for use
with NITRO powder.

303 - calibre

NP below arm with a Scimitar - LONDON Semi Smokeless Proof of all Guns

NITRO PROOVED - In use between 1916 and 1925 for breech loading rifled
barrels with bore diameter no larger than .315 (therefore 303 cal of
.312 falls within this). NOTE - After 1925 this mark was used for
Nitro Proof of ALL barrels chambered for a military round, even if not
themselves of military origin or destined for military use.

Without further research, I would estimate that your gun was made between 1916 and 1925,
however it is a post 1904 gun which is good for a 303 as better ammunition was available.

The proof marks are in very good, clean condition and because of this
and the abscence of a reproof mark, I would say that the gun has not
been reproofed which means it was originally built as a Nitro 303 double
(ie the 303 was originally a Black Powder round and Black Powder 303
doubles are around.)

Hope this helps

500 Nitro

500 Nitro
Thank you(and you others) very much for your information. This will help while I plan to visit the Glasgow university to go through the record books. Now I hopefully dont need to go through all the books in my search. I will let you know if I find it in the records.
Martin

Now this is a good post!!!

500Nitro, would you post pictures of the two differant Webley Actions?

Mickey1 or Martin,

I do not know how to post pictures, however Martin has the pictures so if he can post
them with a link I have no problem with this.

If you (or anyone else) can post pictures I'll email them to you - send me an email.

500 Nitro

Mickey 1
I have now published 500 Nitro's pictures of Webley long bar action.

http://bildbanken.nordiq.net/pic/ems003654.jpg
http://bildbanken.nordiq.net/pic/Webley%20Long%20Bar%20Action%202.jpg

Martin

500 Nitro

Thanks and in the future I can post pictures for you. I got the Alex Henry by the way. Better than the pictures.

Martin

Thank you. So much talk revolves around this action or that and it is nice to have pictures explaining these things occasionally.

Mickey1 thought it would be a good idea if I posted an explanation of the photos that
Martin posted 2 posts above this one.

1st Link
Left is Jospeh Lang 500 Nitro Extractor on a Webley SCREW GRIP Action. Right is Army & Navy 500 Nitro on a Webley PHV1 Action. Things to Note are the shape of the Dolls head/Third bites of each action.

2nd Link
Left is the Webley SCREW GRIP Action - Note the SPADE SHAPE of the Dolls Head AND
that it touches / intersects with the TopLever Spindle. This is the quickest way of telling a Webley Screw Grip,
however the SPADE SHAPE of the Dolls Head must be correct.
Right is Webley PHV1 Action - Note how their is some action metal between the dolls head
and the Toplever Spindle.

The Jospeh Lang / Webley SCREW GRIP Action ON THIS GUN has Intercepting Safety's - the small screws
on the bottom curve of the fences. Although Intercepting Safety's are GENERALLY a sign of a Higher Quality gun,
it is not always the case - I have seen an tidentical Army Navy 500 Nitro to the one in the photo, the only difference being that it had Intercepting Safety's.

The Through Pin in the Stock of the LEFT Gun (Joseph Lang) is ORIGINAL - I have heard alot of people around the world say they are additions (some may be BUT some guns they did come with these originally.

I hope this helps in explaining the actions. In 2 days time I will be taking the Army and Navy 500 on 2 weeks
hunting after Buffalo in the Northern Territory.

500 Nitro

500 Nitro & Mickey 1
A friend of mine has a A&N 500 NE wich had not a "through pin" originally but was repaired with a pin a few decades ago after a hunting trip. In my own case, I have also repaired the stoch with a pin, seems like this is one of few week points of those actions(Wich Joseph Lang & sons obviously already knew a hundred years ago).
Martin

Martin,

Before I purchased the Joseph Lang, I showed the Written Description to a friend of mine - he immediately
said "that will have a traingular pin through the stock just behind the action". He was correct and I sad look
at the photo on the following page. I asked him how he knew and his response was that he had owned 3 or so
over the years !!!

Interestingly neither of the Army & Navy's have a pin. I suppose it's like having 1 or 2 Cross Bolts on large
calibre bolt action rifles.

If anyone says to you "it's just an Army and Navy", at least you can correct them. Also, because of the way the British Gun Trade worked, it was sometimes easier for servicement to order a gun through the Army & Navy Stores Ltd than to get to the London or Birmingham gunmaker.

Personally, I would take an Army & Navy double anyway as a lot of the ones I've seen are Webley's.

500 Nitro

Pretty rifle-should be a lot of fun in .303...

Martin:

Congratulations on getting your Army & Navy. These Webleys make nice rifles and offer a lot of gun for the money at current prices.

As noted by the previous posters, it was undoubtedly built for Army & Navy CSL by Webley & Scott. The proof marks establish date of manufacture as previously noted. The two numbers present on the gun are a cypher though, as you discovered from A & N's records.

The Army & Navy serial number range for shotguns and rifles retailed during the period established by the proof marks, 1904 to 1925, would be roughly 45000 to 66800. Also, according to the serial number table in Brown's "London Gunmakers", numbers 7467 and 11033 both fall in the 1890-1896 period. Although this does not exactly match the dates you got for those numbers from the University of Glasgow, it is clear that the A & N guns bearing those numbers were built well before 1900, which yours was not. It is unlikely that either number is an A & N serial number. While it was not unusual in the British trade for gunmakers to retail guns "bought in" from others bearing only the trade maker's number and no serial number of their own, this would seem unusual for Army & Navy as they had their own numbering system and their guns usually bear both numbers. I have no idea why this rifle would be an exception, but it appears to be.

The number 11033 stamped between the fore-end loop and the hook is in the correct range for Webley & Scott double rifles made during this period and this is their number. On A&W (spade shaped top extension) and PHV-1 (club shaped top extension) doubles for built "for the trade" (for another gunmaker or retailer) Webley usually stamped their serial number (usually five digits in the nitro era) on the right side of the fore-end loop itself. However, I have seen a few with the number located where yours is.

Since it is unlikely that either number belongs to Army & Navy's sequence and neither appears to be a patent number, the number 7467 must also be Webley & Scott's. Note that this number is stamped in three places - on parts that were being hand fitted to each other and to the gun. My guess is this was used as a unique job number and stamped on these parts to aid the benchmen in keeping them with the correct gun while working with several during the same period. Army & Navy was strictly a retailer and would have had no need to stamp their number in this manner, but Webley & Scott as the true maker certainly might have. Why Webley would not have used their final serial number for this purpose instead of a separate one, I have no idea. Perhaps Webley assigned serial numbers only when the gun was ready for proof instead of when the order was received, who knows?

The above are my thoughts on your question. Hope you enjoy your new rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Let me just say that I am impressed as all h--l with the knowledge and erudition displayed by you guys.

There is a wealth of knowledge by folks who love and have studied double rifles on this forum.
400 Nitro, Mac and 450NE No.2, 500 Nitro are well read and done extensive field research on double rifles.

What makes their knowledge and others on this forum unique, is that they freely offer it to those who seek to learn about double rifles. Fortunately for me 400 Nitro has been a good friend for several years. His love of the british double rifle is the driving force in his research. He's a good man, a great friend!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rusty

thought I knew a little about doubles, see my recent post under "double rifle honesty", see my 8/99 DGJournal article "Major Sloan's Rigby", but compared to those guys I am an absolute ignoramus .

Vig

Vig:

I have that issue and read the article. That was a lovely old Rigby in a great caliber. Pity you didn't take it with you when you went to Africa - "dreary counsel" is right. Fine article.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."