know exactly when your trigger is going to release the striker or hammer and the shot will be fired?

And how many of you are totally surprised each time when, while pressing the trigger, the rifle fires?

It has long been taught to new shooters that one should just press on the trigger until the gun suddenly fires, rather than trying to pull the trigger to get it to fire at the exact instant everything looks perfect.

Is that just a way to keep new shooters from jerking the trigger or flinching? Or is it the way it should always be done?

If it is more accurate to do it that way, why are a consistent trigger pull ('breaking point' and 'weight of pull') so important? Wouldn't quite variable trigger pull breaking points and weights work just as well, or even better, by making a person keep pressing until he definitely was 'surprised' by the gun firing?

I'm not taking sides on either side of this discussion for the moment, I'd like to see how the poll comes out, and what comments any of you may have on the subject.

Question:
What happens with the trigger when you are shooting?

Choices:
I press the trigger slowly until it surprises me with its break.
I know exactly when my trigger is going to break and I may even adjust my aim whiling pulling smoothly to that pont.

Question:
So, is the speed with which you press or pull the trigger important?

Choices:
Yes
No

Question:
Do you think top competitors like to be surprised by when the shot fires?

Choices:
Yes, it works best.
No, they have shot enough to do better when they know exactly when the shot will fire

 

Shooting at targets and shooting at game under field conditions are a bit different, but either is best done with a clean, predictable trigger.

When shooting at a target from the bench you should be able to predict within an ounce or two when your trigger is going to break. I regard the proper technique as steadying your crosshair on the aiming point, putting pressure on the trigger, and as you center the aiming point subtly increasing the pressure on the trigger as your crosshair settles in the exact place you want it and your rifle fires simultaneously. It's not exactly a "surprise" when it fires, but it is neither within the microsecond that you think "fire!". The firing pin fall should occur within a very small window of time, but not at an exact and perfectly predictable time since that almost always results in squeezing too hard and too fast and moving your crosshair slightly from the aiming point.

Hunting in the field is somewhat different. You want the same predictability in the trigger (although it can be a few ounces heavier). Proper trigger control on game shot from something less steady than a sandbagged bench should allow you to make the gun fire exactly when the aim is right. "Right" in this instance is a much larger area than aiming to within a couple of hundredths of an inch on a benchrest target. "Right" is roughly a three to five-inch circle centering on the animal's vitals.

I grew up on the typical British rifles of the era. So the 303 Enfield No4 and the BSA martinin .22LR.

BOTH having double stage triggers, well certainly the No4, and both a point at which you knew when the gun would fire.

I've carried that on and I suppose you like best what you are used to.

Ditto with my shot guns. Again although single stage I know exactly when it will and will not fire.

This post goes hand in hand with the Followthrough post.

You really need to know when the gun is going to shoot. Trigger control is just that. You want a smooth consistent trigger pull that does not affect the Hold. Being surprized is not being in control. I was taught this at the Olympic Traning Center at a coach seminar.

Aiming, Breath Control, Hold Control, Trigger Control, and Followthrough are all Fundamentals; as such all are inter-related and important.

Personally I think either technique can be (nearly) perfected and is.I was tought to use military triggers and those that when touched go bang. roger

The gun I use the most and have used the most for 20+ years is also the gun I shoot the best with by far.
I know exactly when the trigger is going to break.
Would be strange that I didn't know considering how many times I have pulled that trigger

As for your questions, I want to know when the trigger is going to break. That is why I try my best to get them all to the same pull weight. I believe, as already stated that it helps with the "follow through". As to speed, yes it makes a difference since a faster trigger pull COULD lead to a jerk and take the gun off line. I would think all competitors want to know when the trigger breaks as it is part of breathing, hold, etc.

Steve Kostanich is a gunsmith up in Chehalis, WA.

in 1989 he built me a Hunter Class benchrest rifle, on a Rem 700 SA. He put a third lever in the trigger, ala the 40X that was an ounce and three-eights, two stage. You could actually feel it hit the end of the first stage, and then just "think" shoot.

I have varmint rifles like that, and a couple bench guns.

I am a fan of DST's in my Mauser hunting rifles, and I really like the set trigger on the CZ's. I want that feel.

The best way I can describe what I do is that I pull the trigger, in a fast but controlled way, so that I know exactly when the weapon will fire.

If I'm shooting targets, or if I've got time for it, I try to make sure the break of the trigger surprises me. When I shoot like this, long rough triggers don't bother me. In field shooting, I'm consciously pulling through the trigger to get the shot off before the animal's gone.

If I start anticipating the trigger's release, I can often shoot okay for an extended period (20-30 shots), but I eventually start opening up my groups.

I teach CCH classes and the NRA curriculum included portion that my partner teaches, always talks about "surprise" break and how that is a good thing. I rarely say anything during class to argue the point but occasionally a student will and I then can support that "surprise" and a gun going off is never a good thing. Even a double action revolver, I know when the break is and that is when the sights must be aligned. Also that is the Point of no return before you send the bullet into "forever" and you need to know when that is for several reasons, including accuracy in my book.
Great question!

I know when the gun is going to go off. The rifles I shoot have two types of triggers: either a well-adjusted single stage with a clean break around 1.5-2 lbs, or a two stage military trigger. With either one, I know when the gun is going to shoot.

I believe world class target shooters have eliminated the conscious from their trigger control technique. Just as a touch typist does not look at the letter "a" on a sheet of paper and consciously will his/her left little finger to strike the "a" key, the shooter's subconscious recognizes and acceptable sight picture and increases pressure without any conscious effort.

Shooting standing, the amount of time required for the conscious brain to recognize an acceptable sight picture and then consciously order the trigger finger to fire the shot is long enough that the front sight can easily stray off the target before the firing pin falls.

This subconscious trigger pull is what I have strived for throughout my shooting career, but still have not mastered to the point that I can use it consistantly.

Shooting at running game is another proposition altogether. There a shotgun style slap at the trigger is what is called for.

some of the best triggers I have ever had were on my shotguns.
if you slap at a shot gun trigger you will miss.
especially if you intend shooting more than one bird from a flock, or multiple targets.
you can feel them take up and stop right before the break same as a rifle or revolver.
everything should be done as a fluid motion including the trigger press.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
if you slap at a shot gun trigger you will miss.

I would dearly like to see you demonstrate your deliberate squeeze on the outgoing bird at station two or six doubles, or either bird at station eight in international skeet, where you start at the low gun position and can shoulder the gun only after the bird is out of the house. Oh, and you don't know when the bird is coming out, because there is a built in random delay of up to three seconds after you call for the it.

Shooting trap, or pass shooting at ducks or doves, or shooting stations three four and five at skeet I can see how that might work, but with the bird coming out of the house at 100 miles per hour it's a whole different ball game.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The best way I can describe what I do is that I pull the trigger, in a fast but controlled way, so that I know exactly when the weapon will fire.

Me too.

Shooting at game and at targets to me are polar opposites.

I made a couple misses this season though when I pulled the trigger and though it took way longer and much more pull to make the rifle go off than normal.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The best way I can describe what I do is that I pull the trigger, in a fast but controlled way, so that I know exactly when the weapon will fire.

Me too.

I've got 25? rifles. Most have OEM milsurp triggers. Some good, some lousy.
My 270 I know exactly when the trigger will break. Same with my AR15's

This is going to fly in the face of all that is considered normal or practical by many folks, but since I have never done any target shooting other than sighting in a rifle, I fire a rifle the same as I do a shotgun. When the crosshairs or the irons reach the spot where I want to put the bullet, I slap/yank/pull, whatever is necessary to make the gun go bang. It is not pretty or text book by any means, but it has been working for me for 40+ years.

The post I made a short while back concerning Lora shooting the doe, involved my concept of shooting, basically without thinking. For the past two seasons she had for reasons known only to her, although admittedly part of her problem was due to changes in her vision and needing new glasses, but the major issue was that she changed a couple of aspects of her shooting style.

Lora is one of those folks that can shoot a gun, iron sights or scope, with both eyes open. There is nothing wrong with that if a person can do it, I can't. To me and the way I learned/trained myself to shoot, it seems un-natural. Her attempt to change up that aspect of her shooting style was my fault to a large extent. Because of my comments about not being able to understand how she could accurately shoot that way, she began trying to shoot with one eye closed. When I realized that she was doing that, I got her to go back to keeping both eyes open. The second issue was that she was blinking just as she fired the rifle. Wasn't really a flinch as much as a relaxing of muscles allowing the muzzle to drop a fraction of an inch, resulting in her shooting under the target or really low on the target.

The combination caused her to develop a little bit of a mental block that causing her to miss easy shots at deer. The afternoon she killed the doe I convinced her to try the method of the instant that the crosshairs settled where she wanted the bullet to go, take the shot.

I am not saying my method is perfect or even good, but it works for me.

XA.
it might seem like things are happening at 100 mph but they ain't.
it's not a deliberate slow pull of the trigger but a controlled pull of the trigger.
it's done in a controlled manner not a haphazard panicked point and yank.
if you track the bird and have a shooting point and remain fluid in your motions those skeet targets are not hard to hit.
it's the same principle used in shooting steel plates, and when taking double tap shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
XA.
if you track the bird and have a shooting point and remain fluid in your motions those skeet targets are not hard to hit.

I presume you are talking about American skeet targets. The common phrase used to describe International skeet targets is that they look like rocket propelled aspirin tablets. American skeet targets in comparison look like sofa cushions.

International targets have to be specially made to withstand the stress of being thrown so fast. American targets are thrown at about 45 miles per hour. International targets are generally conceded to be thrown twice as fast. Certainly if you don't break the outgoing bird in doubles before it reaches the center stake, the incoming bird will be out of bounds before you can swing on it.

In American skeet, with the gun already shouldered and the target released immediately, it is no trick to break the targets on station eight shortly after they leave the trap house.

In International skeet, with the shooter starting in the low gun position and having to wait for the target to appear before mounting his gun, the targets are almost invariably broken directly above the shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
I believe world class target shooters have eliminated the conscious from their trigger control technique. Just as a touch typist does not look at the letter "a" on a sheet of paper and consciously will his/her left little finger to strike the "a" key, the shooter's subconscious recognizes and acceptable sight picture and increases pressure without any conscious effort.

Shooting standing, the amount of time required for the conscious brain to recognize an acceptable sight picture and then consciously order the trigger finger to fire the shot is long enough that the front sight can easily stray off the target before the firing pin falls.

This subconscious trigger pull is what I have strived for throughout my shooting career, but still have not mastered to the point that I can use it consistantly.

Shooting at running game is another proposition altogether. There a shotgun style slap at the trigger is what is called for.

This.

Especially when firing a rifle from the standing position.

XAUSA,
I loved shooting International Skeet while in College at RIT, Rochester NY. Rochester Brooks was just down the road and Trap and Skeet were PE classes!! I learned to shoot a shotgun there. We shot with some very great shooters from all over the globe from time to time. I had a ball and spent every spare dime on reloaded 12 gauge target ammo. My favorite station was Station 8. Lost most of my targets on 4... I was too impatient back then. Still am probably.

My first contact with International was in the Marine Corps. The Marksmanship Training Unit at Quantico had both International Skeet and a full blown 15 trap set up for International Trap. I was privileged to shoot with two Marine Corps members of the US Olympic Team. While I was in school in Germany, the local gun club also had trap and skeet setups I could use.

Later, back home in Tennessee, the Nashville Gun Club had a field set up for International and a couple of former members of the Army AMTU International Skeet Team who were stationed at Fort Campbell shot there frequently.