judging by his examples, i think that was the point

[ 12-22-2002, 07:36: Message edited by: Curtis_Lemay ]

In the early 1900s, the .45-70 was predicted as not making it to the middle of the century.

Get my drift?

Puncher

I would like to see a graph showing .45-70 sales from its birth to now. I am not saying the 7mmRem mag will be wiped out, but will say you sure won't see 10% of the sales you saw in its hey day.

GF, why is the Rem mag superior to the WSM? Velocity, accuracy? What? I mean, they can use the same bullets, get very simular velocities. Do you think that long actions ignite the powder more consistently than a short action? Just curious on why you think so.

The 7mm Rem Mag is larger than the WSM, it will always have more velocity for equal pressure, it feeds better, it fit's standard size rifles better. I keep hearing all this bullshit about how accurate they are, but the groups I keep hearing about are twice the size my 7mm Rem mag did out of the box.

well lets see the first 3 shot grup i shot whit my 7mm rem mag was 12mm at 100m (>1/2") and it still can out shoot enny shoter that have tried it, including the owner And I still have not finisht dewloping the loads for it.
The oald rifle in 7mm rem meg wood do 22mm at 200m so I cane not see eny reasin for it to disaper!!!!!

[/QUOTE]The 7mm Rem Mag is superior to the WSM!!!!!!!!![/QB][/QUOTE]

GSF,

I meant that in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way. Thought it was obvious.

The 7mmRemMag is already a classic IMO.It will not be made obsolete by the WSM or RUM. Just like the 30-06 is alive and well, decades after the arrival of the .308Win and 300WinMag.

MM

GSF, I will give you feeding part. But the rest seems just emotional "I got one, so it must be better, and your hurting my feelings", talk. And I don't mean any offense with that. I am a perfect person to look at this. One, I don't have either round. What can I say, I like .270 and .300 rounds. Two, I see freinds in my club shoot both and argue this stuff all the time. I cracked up last week, they were outside fighting about it. Well, I thought it was funny. Three, I have seen the load data for both and velocities on thier chronos. Its a toss up. I have seen people try to load there 7mmRem Mag to meet the velocity of others and get pressure signs quick. As far as accuracy, again, another tossup. Yea, a fat short column of powder is supposed to be more consistent to ignite than a long one and I buy that, but I think the quality of the thoat, barrel and crown far outwieghs that. In other words, us mortals probably couldn't tell the difference.

Superior? Come on, you got to be kidding me. Just as good in most circumstances we are in? You bet. Would an elk or moose know the difference in one or the other when hit? Nope and never will!!

[ 12-23-2002, 22:36: Message edited by: bigcountry ]

bigcountry, of the 3 cartridges, the .270 WSM makes the most sense. The 7 WSM, and 300 WSM are outclassed by the 7 MM Rem , and 300 Win mags.

I agree with that statement. But there are a bunch of people out there, obviously not you, you wants the performance of a 7mm or 300Win with no belt in a short action. Thats me. I know the reason is bad, but had a 300Win that was machined very poorly from the factory and the headspace was off and I was getting that bulge you see sometimes on my brass at the head. So here I am 10 years later, anti belt. I love new calibers and bullets. I mean if we all sat around with what we need, that would be boring, everyone with a 30-06, and a red chevy truck. Enjoy the variety.

The 7MM Rem Mag is a excellent sized cartridge. They kick pretty good but are about the minimum to get a decent bullet way out there.

It's about the best all around cartridge there is except for reloading. And the only reloading problem I have had with it is the headspace problem that is built in by the defective belted design. This can be overcome by making cases out of longer brass like the .300 Win mag or having a custom chamber made up by a knowledgeble smith (see thread here by John Ricks).

www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004190

I have loaded that cartridge right to the max and have the chronograph data. I never had any pressure peaks with it using 4831.

It's just that the 7MM WSM and the entire short mag group make more sense and since nothing new has come out for 40 years! there is considerable excitement over these new rounds.

All of us are just speculating for the fun of it on what will happen demand wise but at the moment it seems that the new rounds are off to a great start.

The short magnums are an excellent solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I've never understood the big deal about shaving ounces off a rifle anyway. It's just a whole lot easier to shoot well with a heavy gun with some barrel weight, especially offhand. I'd rather lug a 9lb. 7mm that is easy to shoot than run up mountainsides with a 7 pounder, then miss because it's impossible to hold the whippy- barreled thing still. Also, with the length of the heavier 7mm bullets, the short cases ballistics will go to heck unless the rifle is long throated enough to seat the bullet out like it should be- and then you will have to use a standard length action.

My battered old curio still keeps knocking them down and as long as i can get ammo for it i dont see any need for change--i think the writer that said they were finished has a hole in his head that let his brains out.Viva la 7 mm magnum

jstevens, I am with you. I also have a 7mmRem mag (2 of them) and it is a better deal for me than the shorts. The short mags are loaded hot and still really dont out perform the existing 7RM. With all things being equal, I think this craze for ultra light rifles is now to the marketing scam point. How many nice calibers have we seen ruined by too short of barrels that they cant even develop their true velocity potential. For all the reasons guys talk about with the short fat mags, the only thing I truely see that is nice is someone finally admitted you dont need a belt on a magnum. I would like to see some serious shooting being done with the fat mags and prove to me they really offer something in the accuracy dept. My current rifles seem very accurate to me,with hand loads, just what are they going to do, put every bullet in the same hole, because if they can't do that, who wants them.

I've had a 300 WSM, I've got a 270 WSM and they won't exceed their std length magnum stablemates. Sorry, I haven't been able to accomplish this feat. With that said, I used to own a Browning Abolt 7mm RM and I've cried ever since I got rid of it ( In a fit of insanity!!! ). The 7mm RM is the best rifle I've ever owned. For proof, I never had a deer move after being shot with it. I didn't make shoulder shots or neck shots either. A nosler 140gr Ballistic tip through the lung area and lights out. I can't say that for my 270 Win., 7mm STW or 7mm-08. I hope the 7mm RM isn't dead and gone. I might revive out of my insanity one day and go get me another one.

The gun control crowd will be the demise of the 7mm Rem Mag long before some short action fatassed ultramag thingy ever will.

Just like Vince Gill's new song, EVERYBODY IS LOOKING FOR THE NEXT NEW THING. Like what has been said here before by so many. 1. the gun manufacturers are always looking for new next new things to spur new interest
2 that is what they have R.&D. departments
3 that is why they have advertising departments.
4 everyone has an opinion as to what is best and some, many are willing to spend their bucks to try to out do what has alredy been done. After all your dad did not have all the answers on just about everything, until you got old enough to appreciate his answers. Then you found out he was right more often than not, remember?
So, if the gun and ammunition companies continue to come out with new and exciting calibers and guns, do I need to buy them or not.I have a tried and true 7MM mag. that has taken everything that I have ever shot at with it. I now have a .338 rem. mag. that I took to Africa because I thought my trusty 7mm. mag. was a little light for the game that I was going after. Both take game very well. I hand load for the 7mm because I have had it for over 30 years. Will I go out and guy a new "next new thing" to get another 200 f.p.s. no, will I continue to shoot and enjoy my 30 year old gun yes. And like in the song, after you get to the top, then they will be looking for another "next new thing" to come along with. Do you need it, probably not. Will the 7MM. mag be here for the next few years, you can bet on it. Long after a bunch of us no longer need anything to shoot.

If the short magnums had come along first, there may have been no 7mm Remington, although the history of the .284 Winchester is an argument the other way ( and may serve to illuminate the scenario when an slightly improved cartridge goes up against an entrenched standard, that being the 30-06/270/280 family ). I won't be trading my 7mm RM any time soon; it is a good balance of power, recoil, and accuracy. The marginal improvement in those areas isn't worth the cost for my trips.

TC! made a most excellent observation of some hunters. Lots of hunters I have had the pleasure of hunting with are not primarily gun enthusiasts...the gun is just a tool to get the job done.

I, on the other hand, started out as a shooter first and am trying to learn as much as possible from fellow hunters that have a jump on me.

The 7Rem Mag will never go away, but sales of the caliber will be hit by the short Mags & ultra Mags. I think the 7 Rem Mag is a great caliber, BUT, I also think the WSM is a more advanced catrtidge design. Just look at the PPC cases the Benchrest guys are shooting. I believe they know something about accuracy.

I would probably buy a WSM over a Rem Mag because of this AND because I don't already own a 7 Rem Mag, so I have no loyalty to it. I also don't WANT the fastest 7mm..I want something that won't burn my barrel out in 3 shots like a 7mm-378 Wthby. My biggest debate is between the .280Rem and the 7WSM. I think the 7WSM will be MOST appealing to shooters that DON't already own a .284 and can pick whichever one they want. If I already owned a 7REM Mag that shot tight groups??? NO WAY would I go out looking for a new Shrt-Mag!!

Thanks my 2 cents worth....

B26354

Deckard, in all seriousness, is it possible to burn the barrel out in a 7mm Wby Mag with just 3 shots? That seems far fetched to me. In all seriousness, with just 3 shots, the 7mmwby mag burns the barrel out? What experience do you have with the 7 mm wby, I am interested, as I am building a 240 wby mag, and I understand the barrel burning potential, but as long as you arent popping off more than 3 rounds, and then letting the barrel cool, is there a problem with just 3? Not being a smarta##, I want to know.

faulgur,
if you read Deckard's post again, he said 7mm-378 Wthby. I think with that statement he meant the 7mm Ultra's and STW's etc., not the 7mm Wthby. Just a heads up

Faulgur
A quote taken from Saeeds 30-378 reloading data:

"125 rounds fired – erosion is very noticeable, and the eroded area seems to have increased slightly."

Using cartridges in this "bore Vs capacity" ratio class is generally reserved for two groups.

1. People who shoot very little but like to talk about having the biggest / meanest gun on the planet.

2. People who like to spend money on new barrels.

My advice would be to take the extra money you would spend on overpriced proprietary ammunition and custom dies, and spend it on range fees and hunting trips.

More fun + Less money = Happiness (And a full freezer)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by allen day:
[QB]I don't consider the fastest 7mm available to be the "ultimate 7mm" cartridge any more than I'd consider the fastest car on the road to be the 'ultimate' automobile. Speed counts, but there are other considerations when it comes to cartridge evaluation, including availability, barrel life, barrel length requirements, shootability, etc.

Ditto and ditto again. I would add only magazine capacity and and and, well I know there's something else I would add

Thats right, so I guess all these posts saying the 7mmRem Mag is faster, means the older 7mmRemMag is definately not better????

Big Dog, got it, you are right.

JW. For the record, I have no need for a shooting range, I have my own.
I understand the velocity concept very well, thankyou.

Remington has had only one "successful" magnum. Their marketing of the 7 rem mag and the Model 700 were very effective. I heard about the 7mm Remington Mag before I heard about hippies. As far as I know the hippies had their day in the sun and the 7mm is still killing elk.

Here is my point. The mag writers get paid for writing good things about this or that. If you look back over the last 40 years a lot of writers have been paid a lot of cash to say a lot of good things about the 7mm Rem Mag. Now Remington is pushing their new magnums. Maybe the Aussie writer got stiffed on a nice 7mm mag article. Some upstart got the dough for praising a new cartidge that will do almost the same thing for more money in Remingtons pocket. This is no longer the day of Jack O'Conner where the editor held sway. It is the bottom line. So if you like the old 7 Mag just pretend you can't afford a new rifle/cartridge and will have to settle for second best. I'm sure the folks that make their living writing stories for gun rags will understand.

Gentlemen

I would say that 7 mm rem mag, 270 win, 3006, 300 win mag, 300 wby and 375 H&H and a few more, have been around too long to fade away.

Not a chance that they will wannish because of a short and fat dude like the WSM and his buddies from remington

Let see for who long the RUM, WSM type will be popular. I guess that remington line will go under first, some of them will be one hit wonder and then fall back

/ JOHAN

I believe Winchester needs to get patted on the back for such a "marketing Scheme" for most of the WSM's I seen out so far ONLY match what's already been done by an older stand by cartridges. I laugh when I visited Winchester's webcite and saw the comparison of the 270WSM against the Wby 270....Please.

I really hated to see Remington jump on the bandwagon when they introduced their version of the short magnums. Although, when Remington came out with the Ultra's, that's nice to have also. The Ultra's do have a conciderable gain over the standards in velocity, and the brass is cheaper than the ones that have Weatherby head stamped on them for sure.

I'll just have to make more room in my safe to put the Ultra's next to 7mm Rem Mag for the Ultra's do not replace others, they just give one more rifles to buy..... As far as the WSM's, Just because their short fat, and cute, doesn't make me fat, dumb and happy. Winchester needs to put bigger fatter pills (338 and up) on the end of them WSM rounds, and see what type of balistics happen. There's a big croud out there that can't shoot the full powerhouse 375H&H's and bigger round loads. They would also like to throw big pills downrange W/O having to visit the chiropractor after the range session ended.....

Dennis

Thats pretty funny:

I think in our camps there are. 2 30/30's, a 25-35, 2 or 3 300 savages, a 40 -65, 6 or 7 270's and 06's, at least one krag, a 257 roberts, and then there's me; I'm the punk carrying that overbore, barrel burning, throat corroding new fangled .264 win mag. Hell, we hav'nt even got to that modern 7mag yet.

Talk about battered curios.

the guys and the guns.
turfman
turfman

I wonder how many die sets are out there for 7mm Rem mag.?As soon as they are no longer useful and I see them (and the guns) in the landfills would I believe such a venerable cartridge die off.I think it won't happen.Alot of the reason that 30/30,270 Win.,30/06 Spr. is still so popular is because of the sheer number of rifles and dies/brass still in use,not to mention the "niche" they can fullfill.I don't have a 7mm Rem mag.,but I don't believe they will ever be outdated.I opted for the 270 Win. based on factory ammo/brass availability.The 280 Rem. may be a little more versatile,but for my needs the 270 Win. is the ticket!Now what about my 35 Rem.???

[ 01-05-2003, 21:57: Message edited by: small fish ]

It may no longer be the ultimate in 7mm's but will be with us for a long time.