It seems the standard is that most of us want a rifle that will shoot a 3 or 5 shot group under and inch at 100 yds. Perosnally I prefer half that.

I can't hardly remember that last time I shot a modern bolt action rifle that wouldn't shoot groups under and inch at 100 yds. Maybe one or two but I can't recall.

I have shot a lot of the 30 and under calibers. 223, 220 swift, 243, 6mm, 25-06, 257 wby, 270, 280, 7mm RM, 7mm STW, 300 win mag, 300 ultra etc etc and and a few others and some of them in multiple cartridges and I can't remember an instance off a bench where I couldn't shoot less than an inch group at 100yds and most of them quite a bit less than an inch. This is with reloads as I rarely ever shoot factory ammo.

I have a plain jane Rem 700 ADL in 243 that I inherited from my Grandpa. I had retired it for a couple years but decided to stick a Simmons whitetail hunter on it as it was the only spare scope I had, this year it was the only rifle I used for deer hunting. It doesn't matter if you are shooting 80gr BT's, 87gr Hornady's, 87gr Bergers, 95gr Bergers, 95gr Ballistic Tips whatever if you do your part it will put them in one ragged hole.
We found loads with the 87gr Hornady's and 95gr bergers that shoot to the same zero.

At one time I have either owned or shot all of the above calibers and could shoot groups with nearly all bullets touching and definately under an inch with good reloads and normally if I shot one that wasn't I could call the shot before looking at the target. and 99% of the rifles were factory stock.

I've come to the conclusion that its usually the shooter that can't shoot MOA and not the rifle. Especially in a modern bolt action.

Try hunting positions you cant take the bench with you.

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
Try hunting positions you cant take the bench with you.

I shoot hunting positions plenty. Im just talking about shooting the rifle from a bench to see what it is actually capable of and for zeroing in purposes

Today quit a number of rifles will shoot an inch or better for 3 shots, few will shoot a 5 shot group an inch and under..All mine will but I went thru a lot of guns to find them plus they all shoot most loads to the same POI and that adds a great deal of difficulty in putting together a set of rifles that will do that, and its expensive swappng and trading around.

Any gun will shoot and inch from time to time and lot of folks don't keep records and if they get an inch the believe they have a one inch gun. A one inch gun will shoot one inch all day long, not just now and then..

For 5 shot groups then 1.5 to 1.75 is extremely good and 2.0 in acceptable today..

Yup

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Today quit a number of rifles will shoot an inch or better for 3 shots, few will shoot a 5 shot group an inch and under..All mine will but I went thru a lot of guns to find them plus they all shoot most loads to the same POI and that adds a great deal of difficulty in putting together a set of rifles that will do that, and its expensive swappng and trading around.

Any gun will shoot and inch from time to time and lot of folks don't keep records and if they get an inch the believe they have a one inch gun. A one inch gun will shoot one inch all day long, not just now and then..

For 5 shot groups then 1.5 to 1.75 is extremely good and 2.0 in acceptable today..

I've shot several and nearly all of them I could shoot under an inch pretty much everytime with newer rifles, and with dad toying with the loads could get them to shoot much better. As I said before I think most of the time its the drivers that can't shoot an inch and not the rifle.
However I think once a gun is zereod its time to get off the bench and shoot from field positions.

I think rifles today on average have better barrels etc. To me 2 inches is not acceptable for anything but a woods rifle were ranges will be close

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
Like I said before, I still think most of the time its the shooter that can't shoot under an inch and not the rifle

You must be lookin' over my shoulder

or at my targets!

Best

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
Like I said before, I still think most of the time its the shooter that can't shoot under an inch and not the rifle

You must be lookin' over my shoulder

or at my targets!

Best

GWB

Maybe its just those voices in your head again

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
Like I said before, I still think most of the time its the shooter that can't shoot under an inch and not the rifle

You must be lookin' over my shoulder

or at my targets!

Best

GWB

Maybe its just those voices in your head again

The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
"I can't think of anything to say except...
I think it's marvellous! HaHaHa!"

GWB

The range I shoot on about every weekend has an area in front of the 100yd range that is grass about the first 45yds, then a gravel french drain like area with the 50yd berm, then a creek that is about 5-10yds wide, then the rest of the distance to the 100yd back stop is mostly red dirt/clay. For the last two weeks, the temperature/temperature change and humidity, etc have made it almost impossible to test loads/rifles. I'm not a great benchrest shooter but can generally shoot sub 1" groups with my rifles and handloads. The last two weekends I thought my rifles or loads or scopes were going to crap. My groups with known loads were running 1.5" or bigger. (I normally shoot a given load on several weekends with different conditions to see that the only thing that changes is the group size.) Several of the other regular shooters were experiencing the same thing that I was. After trying several small changes like primers, seating depth, etc, I called a friend that is a gunsmith and competitive benchrest shooter. He told me that he had been working on a couple of rifles and loads during the same two week period and had experienced the same results. The only thing he could suggest was that the air conditions over the 100yd range were so varied that the bullet was having to travel thru 6-8 different conditions and were affecting the bullet stability.

I agree that most modern bolt rifles with good ammo are probably capable of shooting sub 1" groups, but mother nature can put a wrinkle in that went she wants to.

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
Try hunting positions you cant take the bench with you.

You can't????

I agree with Atkinson: lots of variables contribute to accuracy. I can't say that I shoot as well one day as on another...i want to ...but it just doesn't happen. I've sold a couple of rifles that I couldn't achieve better than 3/4" (regret it now) I have a Steyr M-III professional in .30-06 that I would put up against any rifle any day of the week. It's very forgiving and just shoots. I have other rifles that on a given day I can shoot a 5 shot ragged one hole group. A week later...same load and it shoots 1.5". it's not the rifle...it's me, it's temps, maybe humidity impacts, or other shooters at the next bench over...who knows? I commend anyone who can be that consistent. To me hunting situations is the payback. When I can drop a deer at 200-300 (318 yards is my personal best)...that means more than 1 hole groups to me. Range time..knowing how your rifle performs always pays off in the field. just one person's opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Today quit a number of rifles will shoot an inch or better for 3 shots, few will shoot a 5 shot group an inch and under..All mine will but I went thru a lot of guns to find them plus they all shoot most loads to the same POI and that adds a great deal of difficulty in putting together a set of rifles that will do that, and its expensive swappng and trading around.

Any gun will shoot and inch from time to time and lot of folks don't keep records and if they get an inch the believe they have a one inch gun. A one inch gun will shoot one inch all day long, not just now and then..

For 5 shot groups then 1.5 to 1.75 is extremely good and 2.0 in acceptable today..

1(one) shot groups not 5 shot groups is what matters in a hunting rifle. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
1(one) shot groups not 5 shot groups is what matters in a hunting rifle. roger

Bartsche,
you're preachin' to the choir.

I shoot groups and measure velocity as a tool to devise optimum loads. However it has long been my contention, a better way to determine the capability of a rifle is to shoot one shot at a target set up at the same location/distance on three different days.

Though not done on different days, here are thee shots on two targets, fired about 1 hour apart. The barrel had been previously fouled and had 15 to 20 rounds through the tube before these were fired. The first two shots were fired to determine the point of impact. The third shot was fired after adjusting windage.


Two shots fired about 1 hour apart from same setup.


Single shot fired after adjustment for zero.

Best

GWB

We have booked this cineshot after christmas during a hunting week.

http://jaktmarkerna.se/film.html

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
Like I said before, I still think most of the time its the shooter that can't shoot under an inch and not the rifle

You must be lookin' over my shoulder

or at my targets!

Best

GWB

Maybe its just those voices in your head again

The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
"I can't think of anything to say except...
I think it's marvellous! HaHaHa!"

GWB

I knew it all along

ahh to have those young eyes again.
There was a time when I could hold 3MOA with am M1 or a revolver. Now I can hardly see the sights!

quote:

Originally posted:
I can't hardly remember that last time I shot a modern bolt action rifle that wouldn't shoot groups under and inch at 100 yds. Maybe one or two but I can't recall.

That may very well identify the problem. Recollection.

Many shooters say their rifles will shoot under an inch all the time. Few proove it either in competition or in the field shooting at game.

And they still manage to kill their game often enough to continue the sport.

Incidentally, I suspect it is the ammo which has improved the most, Shooters who have improved second most, and Rifles which have improved the least in absolute accuracy capability over the last 60 years.

At least that seems to be the case with the literally hundreds of rifles I have shot and tested over the years. Some of my better shooting rifles are unaltered and were made at least 60 (or even 80) years ago. One of them was made at some unestablished date, but the Swiss maker went out of business in 1895.

I don't seem to have that kind of luck. I've had several rifles that I can't get to shoot under an inch, one of which I still own and is the most expensive on my rack. Now before you blame the shooter, know that I have 2 factory rifles that I can consntently shoot under an inch, ones even a .338.

The one I mentioned that doesnt shoot is a semi-custom job that ran me $800. The gun *will* shoot a 1" 3-shot group but WILL NOT shoot a 1" 5-shot group, nor will it shoot 1" groups consistently. The gunsmith and I are still debating on what a sub-MOA gun is. his claim is since it did shoot sub 1" once or twice, his accuracy guarantee is satisfied, even if the the 5 shot groups are 2".

There's a big difference in rifles that CAN shoot a 1" group and one that DOES shoot 1" groups. To me an accurate rifle puts 5 shots in 1 - 1.3" no matter the day, temperature ect. My guess is there's alot of rifles that'll shoot that 1" group but won't do that. Least thats been my experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
I don't seem to have that kind of luck. I've had several rifles that I can't get to shoot under an inch, one of which I still own and is the most expensive on my rack. Now before you blame the shooter, know that I have 2 factory rifles that I can consntently shoot under an inch, ones even a .338.

The one I mentioned that doesnt shoot is a semi-custom job that ran me $800. The gun *will* shoot a 1" 3-shot group but WILL NOT shoot a 1" 5-shot group, nor will it shoot 1" groups consistently. The gunsmith and I are still debating on what a sub-MOA gun is. his claim is since it did shoot sub 1" once or twice, his accuracy guarantee is satisfied, even if the the 5 shot groups are 2".

There's a big difference in rifles that CAN shoot a 1" group and one that DOES shoot 1" groups. To me an accurate rifle puts 5 shots in 1 - 1.3" no matter the day, temperature ect. My guess is there's alot of rifles that'll shoot that 1" group but won't do that. Least thats been my experience.

You need a new gunsmith.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

You need a new gunsmith.

Agreed. Beyond the bad barrel work he bedded the rifle into the stock permanently, I have yet to confront him about this. I definitely won't be sending anymore business his way.