quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

a concept as important today as
it was to Jefferson, especially for the Children of Texas.

Perhaps you may choose to teach your kids the proper use of the F-word.

But heck...I wouldn't ask a man to sell me a $500 rifle for a penny either...so what do I know???

We all gotta have something to get indignant about - eh?

Think about this:

What's empathy, honor, integtity, ethics, word, and promises to a Psychopath?

I say they are tools in a vast tool box, for the manipulation of people who abide and cherish those and other virtues.

It could be that to understand what I said, one would have to be a Psychopath or have suffered through dealing with one, or have been married to one. In the latter case, the preacher damn sure stuttered at my wedding, the significance of which I didn't catch at the time.

I now know the true meaning of the term "the f***ing you get, for the f***ing you got". Nonetheless, virtues are still important, yet they take on new significance, given the whole context in which they are applied.

KB

I have said my piece and am outa breath. I'm out of here.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Are you making no distinction between a penny auction that runs its course, and one that was closed early? Is closing early just an excuse?

KB

No difference.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I have said my piece and am outa breath.

Me too.

I find it interesting that there is such a range of opinion on this topic. My curiosity has been satisfied, regarding the aspect and some of the general basis of disagreement and conflict in human nature.

It's a small wonder as to why the courts and attorneys are flourishing.

Often I think it would be so much simpler if the world and the way we see it, and deal with it, was all in black and white, no color or shades of grey. In a way, I envy those who see things that way, especially right ahd wrong. Easy answers to ethical questions are so convenient.

KB

I emailed this thread to a friend that is also an attorney and asked his opinion....here it is:

quote:

This would almost certainly be taken up in a small claims court. The judge would assess whether both parties entered into this agreement in good faith and with a bid of one penny, the answer would be most likely no. The likely finding would be "no sale".

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I emailed this thread to a friend that is also an attorney and asked his opinion....here it is:

quote:

This would almost certainly be taken up in a small claims court. The judge would assess whether both parties entered into this agreement in good faith and with a bid of one penny, the answer would be most likely no. The likely finding would be "no sale".

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Are you making no distinction between a penny auction that runs its course, and one that was closed early? Is closing early just an excuse?

KB

no, closing it early is copping out, or, as you described "cold feet" ..

you backed out

My final word as well.

Remember this for the classified forum here. No problem screwing a seller before, no problem with it in the future.

I'm late to the game but that's ok. But a Quick Summary might be:

Sounds like Flock Shooter screwed up by being dumb and now wants to weasel out of the auction and along the way is recruiting camp followers.

What say ye????

Larry, if you don't want to do any business with me, that suites me, but I'll tell you that I consider your comment inappropriate. You will not find one person on this forum, where anything of value changed hands, who has had a bad dealing with me thru the classifieds. And also, with fawn killer Teancum, you are in bad company.

KB

some jazbo skips on his storage unit rent for six months, somebody has to auction it or pay 10cents a pound for the dump fee, so a grand piano for a buck is a deal for both guys , but atyping error for a one item personal stuff cant be corrected, its a matter of honor

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
KB,
let's turn this around ..if you had wanted 500 for it, and someone bid 5,000 and it ran up that high, would you offer to refund the 4500 difference?

i didn't think so.

yeah, no answer?

Had something similar happen once at a store.

They had a nice Leopold scope listed for half of what it should be. I told the manager that I would like that scope, but that he should make sure the price is correct.

Took them ten minutes, but they did agree to let me have it for what the tag said. It had been mislabeled, but the manager said that was his problem, not mine.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
KB,
let's turn this around ..if you had wanted 500 for it, and someone bid 5,000 and it ran up that high, would you offer to refund the 4500 difference?

i didn't think so.

yeah, no answer?

Jeff,

I said I was out...but...I'll bite!

If he contacted me and said he was sorry but he let his typing finger over-load his wallet...I would probably post some "mild" negative feed-back and offer to the next highest bidder.

I WOULD NOT THREATEN WITH A SUIT! That my friend...is what is wrong with our society today!

I hope to stay away this time...but...I'l close with my original point. The penny bidder was NOT hurt. KB got negative feedback...Nuff Said!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
KB,
let's turn this around ..if you had wanted 500 for it, and someone bid 5,000 and it ran up that high, would you offer to refund the 4500 difference?

i didn't think so.

yeah, no answer?

Let's seeee .... I tried to give you some slack, because your question is self-evidently ridiculous and self-refuting.

$5000 less $500 = 900% increase

As I said, I let the other ad continue, because it already had bids which put the penny lurker out of the picture.

The continued ad started at a penny and it's now at $420.

$420 less $.01 = 4199900% increase

Should the bid for $420 be the winner, I have no intentions of refunding $419.99.

Does that answer your question?

Perhaps to your way of thinking, I should take the $419.99 profit, and give it to the poor penny lurker that I f***ed out of a rifle for nothing? Or perhaps your honorable suggestion is to tell the "winner" sorry, but the honorable thing is to sell to the first bidder, at $.01.

On the other hand, assuming that I have no honor, as you and others say, then I can keep the $419.99 with a clear conscience. But you and the Larry types of course are obligated by your honor, integrety and ethics to refund the $419.99.

Now, I get it. I see why guys like you and Larry have to start with a reserve. It's because you are worried you may have make a refund to preserve your self-precieved honor.

Furthermore, your question has other possible ethics questions embedded. Say the bidder realized his mistake, or for whatever reason, and backed out of the $5000 deal? Should the seller go after him with an attorney? Forgive? Leave bad feedback?

Seems to me it's a no-sale if the buyer backs out, and the only recourse is bad feedback, and relist the item.

Suppose you just happen to be dealing with Larry. The deal closes, and you offer to refund or forgive the portion that you think is too much. Here comes Larry, with his honor baggage, and says that he has to pay the full bid amount, to preserve his honor. So, the two of you disagree. Each has honor at stake, which is priceless. So, does Larry sue you to make you take the full $5000, or do you sue Larry to have the court make him take the refund?

Only those with such honor and intregity can answer that one. Since I have none, I have no answer, except perhaps in compromise you both may be able to squeeze a charitable donation for your tax returns out of it - for the same dollar amount. I doubt the IRS would catch it. And if they did, they couldn't figure that one out anyway.

KB

Wow

Some people will go to great lengths to convince themselves and some of their camp followers that what they did was ethical.

Interesting that flock shooter and Hoths#t were raving about a rifle sold by Seafire a while ago on these boards. Hotsh#t doesn't seem to be coming to the rescue of his camp follower and flock shooter is digger it deeper with each posting of "justification" and antidotes.

Amazing and pitiful!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
Wow

Some people will go to great lengths to convince themselves and some of their camp followers that what they did was ethical.

Interesting that flock shooter and Hoths#t were raving about a rifle sold by Seafire a while ago on these boards.

In your dreams, fawn sniper. After all, I'm the one who introduced this, because I thought it was an interesting expiriment to see what others thought about it, since I'm rather sure I'm not the only one who has gotten himself into a similar situation. I figured I was vulnerable, somewhat, but had little to worry about, from those inclined to be nice.

Now, I admit that I feel the need a bit to be defensive, because there are trolls like you out there, who join in late just for their own amusment, especially when there's no expense or nothing at stake for themselves. A free ride lurker - so to speak. You and I have been in the midst of troll debate before, with predictable results, most of which were a crash of real discussion. That's a likely outcome here as well, with your input.

I don't need to convince myself or others, really. Besides, I didn't say what I did was ethical. Instead, I said it is an ethical dilema or quandry, and I did what I believed was right, considering the whole picture.

One basic thing that has come to light about this is there are plenty of people, like yourself and Larry, who have an irrational concept of good faith, and how it is applied to dealings with others. In my book, those are the kinds of people in which law suits and disagreement are borne.

I do feel the need to keep the facts straight, and the twisted logic stright, because people like you just love to mess with the facts and distort things, just to stirr it up - just like a troll. I know you enjoy stuff like this, in a perverted way.

Remind me of my "raving" about a rifle sold by Seafire. I have forgotten all about that.

And, BTW, put your neck out there, and tell us about some of the ethical quandries you've been into. Surely a clean living, and honorable guy like yourself has got some stories to tell, wrongs righted, dilemas resolved, based on your honor, or sense of right and wrong, that we can delight in second-guessing.

KB

Please explain. Person A says "I will sell you this for a penny". Person B says, "OK, I'll buy it for a penny." Person A says "No, I won't sell for a penny." How does that turn into Person B being a scammer and trying to steal something?

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R:
Please explain. Person A says "I will sell you this for a penny". Person B says, "OK, I'll buy it for a penny." Person A says "No, I won't sell for a penny." How does that turn into Person B being a scammer and trying to steal something?

I don't know the answer to that, since I can't recall ever being in a situation as you described, either A or B. I don't have anything worth a penny, that I would bother to sell, especially at auction, rather than just give it away, nor have I ever been a scammer, or a thief. No experience first hand, only observation of others.

Perhaps a scammer, or thief, or penny-lurker, or a person having said he would sell something for a penny, could speak up and explain to this innocent person with an honest and excellent question.

Once, I did see an airplane that was worth $50,000 or more, sell for a dollar. The owner had landed on skis on a frozen lake, and as it turned out - frozen is a relative thing. The plane went through the ice, and stopped, resting on the wings. The ice was thick enough to support it that way.

So, what's a guy to do, with a super-cup partially submerged in a frozen lake - call ghost busters? He called in the biggest helocopter on the Kenai Peninsula. The crew looked over the situation, discussed it with the owner, that it was up to him to hook it onto the salvage cable dangling from the chopper, when overhead. It was up to him to package his plane right where it wouldn't start flying on the trip to town, and BTW, unless he sold it to the salvage company for a dollar, no strings attached, they would just go home now.

I had to witness the actual bill of sale, which the owner gladly signed, and he had to actually receive a dollar, with witnesses. Then the recovery proceeded. The crew boss explained that if any trouble was encountered on the way to civilization, such as swaying, rotating, or anything that put the chopper in danger, they would just drop the airplane.

Once in town, safely, then the title was transfered back to the owner, for a dollar, plus the salvage bill. That's taking care of business and taking care of good faith. The salvage company had no intent to own the airplane for a dollar, but there were other considerations.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R:
Please explain. Person A says "I will sell you this for a penny". Person B says, "OK, I'll buy it for a penny." Person A says "No, I won't sell for a penny." How does that turn into Person B being a scammer and trying to steal something?

I don't know the answer to that, since I can't recall ever being in a situation as you described, either A or B. I don't have anything worth a penny, that I would bother to sell, especially at auction, rather than just give it away, nor have I ever been a scammer, or a thief. No experience first hand, only observation of others.

LOL you really are a delusional aren't you. What a tool.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R:
LOL you really are a delusional aren't you. What a tool.

Oh, so your question was loaded after all, and not innocent? Imagine that.

So, in addition to making it personal and calling me delusional, what else are you calling me? Perhaps, dishonest, unethical, a lier, a thief, a scammer. Be bold, say what you really mean.

If you really mean it, then the honorable thing is to explain how you arrived at your judgmental conclusions. Be a man, rather than a bully.

KB

I thought it was pretty clear. I think you are delusional and a tool. I didn't make it personal. Now if I said you when an UGLY tool, that would be personal. Honorable? Seriously? I'm just as honorable as this thread and forum deserves. And I'd only be a bully if I pushed you down and took your lunch money.

Uh Huh, I see.

Incidentally, what's a tool, in the context that you mean it?

KB

And what happend to the original thread?

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Uh Huh, I see.

KB

Finally something intelligent.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R:
And what happend to the original thread?

This one replaced it. I haven't looked at it for a while.

KB

quote:

Incidentally, what's a tool, in the context that you mean it?

"A Penny for your thoughts" The Twilight Zone,season 2 episode 52, 1961.....

"Mr. Hector B. Poole, resident of the Twilight Zone. Flip a coin and keep flipping it. What are the odds? Half the time it will come up heads, half the time tails. But in one freakish chance in a million, it'll land on its edge. Mr. Hector B. Poole, a bright human coin, on his way to the bank."
Hector B. Poole, a timid bank clerk, gains telepathic powers after tossing a coin that miraculously stands on its edge. He discovers that he is able to "read" other people's thoughts, and is surprised to hear the things people are thinking around him.
He first "hears" his boss thinking about a weekend affair he is planning with his mistress. He then "hears" a businessman, Mr. Sykes, trying to take out a large loan to pay for a run at the horse track to win back money he has embezzled from his company. Hector informs his boss, Mr. Bagby, and thwarts the businessman's plans. Hector then "hears" Miss Turner, a co-worker, has been admiring Hector from afar, but wishes he would be more bold. Hector "hears" her thoughts and decides to take her into his confidence by revealing his "gift" to her.
Eventually he uncovers an apparent plot by an old trusted employee, Mr. Smithers, to steal money from the bank. The plot is eventually disproved; the veteran bank employee admits he has been thinking about stealing money from the bank for years, but would never go through with such a plan. Mr. Bagby fires Hector, but later reinstates him when he discovers Hector was correct about Sykes. With the encouragement of Miss Turner, Hector uses his knowledge of Mr. Bagby's tryst to blackmail his boss into giving him not only a better position as an office manager at the bank, but also Mr. Smithers a long overdue vacation.
After work, as Poole returns home with Miss Turner, he inadvertently knocks down the coin he stood up earlier. To his relief, his ability to read minds is gone; but he is still a changed man, for the better."

Closing naration;
"One time in a million, a coin will land on its edge, but all it takes to knock it over is a vagrant breeze, a vibration or a slight blow. Hector B. Poole, a human coin, on edge for a brief time in the Twilight Zone."

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
How does one make the leap that equates refusing to let somone take advantage and essentially steal a valuable rifle for a penny, to breaking one's word? What's one's word got to do with it?

KB

You said you would sell it for a price .. it was met . there was NO taking advantage of anything. you changed your mind .. the only person breaking the terms, well, aint the buyer

Bullshit: When an item is listed in such a manner & makes 1/40,000th of its true value then there is patently something not right somewhere.
Could be an error by the seller in either spelling or how the item was listed, or it could be inexperience at using auction sites.
If you take advantage of such a mistake then IMO you're morally bankrupt.

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
How does one make the leap that equates refusing to let somone take advantage and essentially steal a valuable rifle for a penny, to breaking one's word? What's one's word got to do with it?

KB

You said you would sell it for a price .. it was met . there was NO taking advantage of anything. you changed your mind .. the only person breaking the terms, well, aint the buyer

Bullshit: When an item is listed in such a manner & makes 1/40,000th of its true value then there is patently something not right somewhere.
Could be an error by the seller in either spelling or how the item was listed, or it could be inexperience at using auction sites.
If you take advantage of such a mistake then IMO you're morally bankrupt.

How is one to differentiate a mistake or ignorance on the part of the seller from a legitimate attempt to start the bidding a low level from a remote location accross the internet? Also, how does arriving at the conclusion that the auction is legitimate and not the result of ineptitute make someone a scammer? What's more scammish? Bidding a penny on an auction that allows bidding a penny or cutting off the auction when someone legitimately bids a penny.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
I'm late to the game but that's ok. But a Quick Summary might be:

Sounds like Flock Shooter screwed up by being dumb and now wants to weasel out of the auction and along the way is recruiting camp followers.

What say ye????

Yup. This is what the flockshooter is trying to do alright. Good luck

If it went the full duration of the auction, hell yes, I better get it for my bid price.

Since the auction in question here went one day out of seven I just call it a failed auction and would just be upset that the auction did not go the full duration so I could win it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R:

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
How does one make the leap that equates refusing to let somone take advantage and essentially steal a valuable rifle for a penny, to breaking one's word? What's one's word got to do with it?

KB

You said you would sell it for a price .. it was met . there was NO taking advantage of anything. you changed your mind .. the only person breaking the terms, well, aint the buyer

Bullshit: When an item is listed in such a manner & makes 1/40,000th of its true value then there is patently something not right somewhere.
Could be an error by the seller in either spelling or how the item was listed, or it could be inexperience at using auction sites.
If you take advantage of such a mistake then IMO you're morally bankrupt.

How is one to differentiate a mistake or ignorance on the part of the seller from a legitimate attempt to start the bidding a low level from a remote location accross the internet? Also, how does arriving at the conclusion that the auction is legitimate and not the result of ineptitute make someone a scammer? What's more scammish? Bidding a penny on an auction that allows bidding a penny or cutting off the auction when someone legitimately bids a penny.

Where does any of your post have relevance to what I said?
Nowhere did I mention scams or any attempt to deceive.

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
How does one make the leap that equates refusing to let somone take advantage and essentially steal a valuable rifle for a penny, to breaking one's word? What's one's word got to do with it?

KB

You said you would sell it for a price .. it was met . there was NO taking advantage of anything. you changed your mind .. the only person breaking the terms, well, aint the buyer

Bullshit: When an item is listed in such a manner & makes 1/40,000th of its true value then there is patently something not right somewhere.
Could be an error by the seller in either spelling or how the item was listed, or it could be inexperience at using auction sites.
If you take advantage of such a mistake then IMO you're morally bankrupt.

Excuse me, sir. If a person placed a no reserve, starting at 1¢ AND HAD AT LEAST THREE CHANCES TO CHANGE STARTING PRICE, he has flatly stated he would sell it for 1¢.

Morally bankrupt? for accepting a man's stated, 3 times approved, price for something?

I won't respond in that JV manner, other than to tell you that your presumption is incorrect. There was no typo, and KB even says he opened it that way INTENTIONALLY ...

perhaps we should review another term, such as critical reading skills?

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
KB,
let's turn this around ..if you had wanted 500 for it, and someone bid 5,000 and it ran up that high, would you offer to refund the 4500 difference?

i didn't think so.

yeah, no answer?

Let's seeee ...blah blah blah blah ... non-answer
KB

This isn't an essay answer question. It was a simple yes or no question.

I didn't represent the long drawn out wrangling question that attempted to answer

if it sold for more than what you wanted, would you have kept the total?

Of course you would .. just as you SHOULD have accepted the results of the auction.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

+1

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I emailed this thread to a friend that is also an attorney and asked his opinion....here it is:

quote:

This would almost certainly be taken up in a small claims court. The judge would assess whether both parties entered into this agreement in good faith and with a bid of one penny, the answer would be most likely no. The likely finding would be "no sale".

This sums it up pretty well for me. I would not be afraid to have a handshake deal with kabluey. There's a difference between a scammer and someone that has an oops moment. Learn from it and move on.

Now stop

When you close a auction early on GB you get a warning, copied below. See #2

Ending an auction early is generally not a good idea if bids have been placed on the item. If there is a winning bidder at the time the auction is closed you are obligated to sell the item to the winning bidder. This means that the item must be sold to the high bidder if 1.) the reserve price has been met or 2.) the item has no reserve price and bids have been placed. Since many bidders wait until the last minute to place a bid, ending an auction early may reduce the amount you will receive for the item.

Using this page will end the auction immediately. Make sure that this is what you want to do.

I don't recall seeing anything like that, consequently I think it's total BS. I don't have anything running now that has bids, and I wouldn't close one again anyway.

I would like to see the previous post confirmed.


OK, I confirmed it myself, and it does say that. I completely breezed by it before.

I probably would have closed the auction anyway.

So, Kebco, if you are so worried about it, why don't you take it upon yourself to force me to comply with the rules, and send the rifle to the guy for a penny? What's in it for you? Satisfaction of making me wrong? I already admitted that I was wrong. What else do you want?

No - I won't kiss your ass.

Just because I was wrong, isn't the same thing as I should have sent him the rifle for a penny. Is there also a rule about being wrong twice in one day?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
When you close a auction early on GB you get a warning, copied below. See #2

Ending an auction early is generally not a good idea if bids have been placed on the item. If there is a winning bidder at the time the auction is closed you are obligated to sell the item to the winning bidder. This means that the item must be sold to the high bidder if 1.) the reserve price has been met or 2.) the item has no reserve price and bids have been placed. Since many bidders wait until the last minute to place a bid, ending an auction early may reduce the amount you will receive for the item.

Using this page will end the auction immediately. Make sure that this is what you want to do.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I don't recall seeing anything like that, consequently I think it's total BS. I don't have anything running now that has bids, and I wouldn't close one again anyway.

I would like to see the previous post confirmed.


OK, I confirmed it myself, and it does say that. I completely breezed by it before.

I probably would have closed the auction anyway.

So, Kebco, if you are so worried about it, why don't you take it upon yourself to force me to comply with the rules, and send the rifle to the guy for a penny? What's in it for you? Satisfaction of making me wrong? I already admitted that I was wrong. What else do you want?

No - I won't kiss your ass.

Just because I was wrong, isn't the same thing as I should have sent him the rifle for a penny. Is there also a rule about being wrong twice in one day?

KB

Kebco does not seem to claim to want to demand or enforce anything, he like others here are free to post on the subject you started.
All he has done is quoted the rules of Gunbroker that you by choice,failed to read before starting an auction. Not only in rashness did you fail to read the rules before auctioning your rifle, you now in your typical rashness call BS on Kebcos post of GB rules.