The Howell's look great:

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/Ammo/case_compar.htm

The 340 Howell would be an excellent elk and moose caliber.

PO Ackley was a genius.

"howl" is an egotistical fool who has never even had 30% of the computer generated cartridges, he "claims" as his own, chambered or tested by himself. howl's doctorate is in "Preaching" and has absolutely nothing at all to do with Engineering, Physics or any discipline required to really understand cartridge design.

When scum of the earth is mentioned, howl always come to mind.

Best of luck with the cartridge "if" you try it.

I will agree with hotcore that a large number of Howell's cartridge designs were only on paper. I had talked with AHR's original owner when he was still trying to find a company to supply his brass. I was interested because the Howell line he had planned mirrored my PDK's that I was already shooting very closely. Originally the family was to include 220, 240, 250, 260, 270, 280, 300, 340, 350, 380 & 400. Looking at their site you can see they greatly reduced the number not only in sales but several reamers were never cut.

Here is a look at the various 338 options.


The 338 Hawk isn't on there but it falls about halfway between the AI and Howell. My PDK uses 280 brass as the parent a .458 shoulder and 40deg. The Howell uses 2.6" brass a 30degand .454 shoulder (running on memory before coffee). I actually built a 340PDK for my buddy with a neck length long enough to chamber 340Howell brass. The Howell factory brass is a crush fit to my chamber. Case capacities are around 78grs of water. So actually my 280 brass gives a higher net capacity and allows me a couple gr higher max load than his. The Howell brass is thicker.

Our barrels are 24" I had a 338Wmag 22". What I found was that on bullet weights 225 and less my case could match my own 338Wmag handloads and beat 338wmag factory. No reason the Howell wouldn't do basically the same. I use to use 180BT for deer and 210Pt for elk now use 200Accubond for all.

I sold my 338 my 340PDK is built in the 7.5# range and it has become my go to rifle for elk.

AHR is great to deal with. The brass and dies are far more reasonable than the Hawk line. My view has always been if you are going to fireform anyway why stop at the AI level. I've use my PDKs for going on 30 years and never found myself needing factory ammo.

The Howells would be darn close to my PDKs in this picture with a neck length like the 400 (second from right). Second from left is a 338-06 and third is my 340PDK

quote:

"howl" is an egotistical fool who has never even had 30% of the computer generated cartridges, he "claims" as his own, chambered or tested by himself. howl's doctorate is in "Preaching" and has absolutely nothing at all to do with Engineering, Physics or any discipline required to really understand cartridge design.

When scum of the earth is mentioned, howl always come to mind.

Has to be a great story there. Where can I read the rest of the story?

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Has to be a great story there. Where can I read the rest of the story?

Here is part of it:

Once upon a time, long, long ago(that is the way stories used to start ), there was a Hunting site I'd visit. Then all of a sudden we had "howl" join that Board. No one was more happy than I was, because I figured we had a real expert that could actually tell us something we did not already know. (And I got very fooled.)

Then a few of the Beginners and Rookies began asking howl questions and a few of us noticed a tone to howl's posts that indicated he was "talking down" to them. A few quick email exchanges and we were sure of it. So, a few of us began taking the fool(howl) on and realized he knew a lot less than most of the Beginners. Sure he had "Edited" real Gun Writers words, but it soon became apparent his actual first-hand experience and ability to think was through the actual Gun Writers words.

Next thing we knew, the scum of the earth began talking trash about "Dead people", who obviously could not defend themselves. He only did it in an attempt to make himself look as if he knew more than they did, but many of us saw through it quickly. The main guy he was trash talking was Mr. PO Ackley. howl's ego can't stand it when someone in the industry is thought of as a Guru and howl doesn't even get a mention. He even tried to trash talk Ken Waters and Bob Hagel.

He also trash talked Mr.Ackley over here one time and fortunately I caught sight of it. howl left this Board because they would not "Ban me" from defending Mr. Ackley and letting howl know what a scum of the earth it takes to talk bad about he dead.

So, perhaps you think I'm stretching the truth. You can find out for yourself by making a visit to 24hourcampfire and "disagreeing" with something howl says. You will find it is not all that difficult to find something to disagree with that he says.

He received the "howl C.A.R.E.T. Award on the first Board I mentioned. It had to do with Annealing Cases. It stands for "howl Complicating Any Relatively Easy Task"(to the point of absurdity).

But, it is best to see through the fool for yourself.

Ken Howell hasn't killed thousands of deer like Hot Core, so Hot Core doesn't have any respect for him.

Howell is an educated and talented man whose designs are interesting and whose knowledge of guns and cartridges is rooted in physics rather than popular hearsay.

How many thousands of deer was that again, Hot Core?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Ken Howell hasn't killed thousands of deer like Hot Core, so Hot Core doesn't have any respect for him.

You are correct that howl does not deserve respect.

quote:

Howell is an educated and talented man whose designs are interesting and whose knowledge of guns and cartridges is rooted in physics rather than popular hearsay.

Obviously spoken by someone howl has fooled. Which in Stonecreeks situation is obviously not that difficult to do.

quote:

How many thousands of deer was that again, Hot Core?

I believe I said either "many or multiple". Sure did not want to sound as if I was bragging to you Rookies who have never even seen a few hundred Deer.

To the o/p, the Howell design is interesting in concept, but I have a few issues with it in practical application. As far as I know, the Howell designs used special extra long -06 based cases, that were produced by Bertram. Bertram brass is soft, hard to come by, and more expensive then generic -06 brass. The other issue is reloading dies, they aren't made by the major die makers.

So my recomendation would be to go the ackley route, common brass, and dies aren't hard to come by. And if the ackley isn't a big enough case capacity increase, just jump up to a magnum case. When you need more capacity, make the capacity increase big enough to be worth the effort.

Paul- Yep the Howell brass is 2.6" long. As to being Bertram I have no idea. I do know that my buddie is on his 6th or 7th loading and the brass is holding up fine. If you want you can use 06 cylinder brass but last time I checked z-hat wanted about $150/100 vs $90/100 for already formed Howell brass.

There is nothing at all that would keep you from simply using 35Whelen brass. You would still have a neck of right at .3". Matter of fact with the right parent brass you would end up with a higher net capcity using the shorter neck case. Like I said before a Howell is a crush fit in a PDK chamber. The 280&340PDK above are built on a 280 case. I have plenty of neck.

AHR sells dies for the Howell. Current price is $86 per set. Midway lists 338-06AI dies at $142.

There is nothng at all wrong with the 338-06AI or the 338-06 for that matter. Going AI adds about 4% capacity going Howell adds about 10% same amount of work and cost to me can be the same or even cheaper. YOu do lose the option to fire factory.

ramrod340, have you had a chance to load your 340 PDK with 225 Accubonds and Norma MRP or 204? Just curious. I was able to get 2875 fps from a 26" barrel with the .338-06 AI using 63 grs. But, that's max for N204. Regards, AIU

quote:

ramrod340, have you had a chance to load your 340 PDK with 225 Accubonds and Norma MRP or 204? Just curious. I was able to get 2875 fps from a 26" barrel with the .338-06 AI using 63 grs. But, that's max for N204. Regards, AIU

Nope since we discussed this back in May I've been playing with other new toys.

ramrod340 may disagree with me, but the small % gain in powder capacity going with the 340 PDK (78 grs of water) or 338 Gibbs over the 338-06 AI (74 grs of water) seems not worth the trouble. Redding (who I trust) readily offers dies for the 338-06 AI and 30-06 brass is readily available and cheap - besides someone contemplating this step-up will likely already have abundant '06 brass.

Also, performance from any of this cluster of calibers will depend on how “hot” you want to load and how much experimentation you’d like to undergo before settling on a final load. Moreover, barrel length will contribute significantly to the muzzle velocity – that is a longer barrel may more than compensate for the small gain in powder capacity. And, this doesn’t take into consideration the idiosyncratic nature of “fast” vs. “slow” barrels.

Also, I think it might be easier to sell a 338-06 AI than the 340 PDK or 338 Gibbs or 338 Howell, because 338-06 ammo is available commercially and will shoot fine in the 338-06 AI. If one really wants more from a 338, I'd suggest going to the 338 Lapua. But, this is just my opinion. Warm regards and Merry Christmas, AIU


With Normal brass my 338-06 AI holds 75 grs of water, and as indicated in my previous post, I'm getting fabulous performance.

AIU if members have read most of my posts on AR they will see I argue that for the small capacity gain even going to the AI comes into question. Most people see a gain from an AI from pressure not capacity. At equal pressure you will see basically a 1% velocity for 4% capacity. What happens is the blown out case seems to hid the pressure. Normally with an AI, Gibbs, Howell or mine you don't see a slow increase in pressure sign. You see something that looks ok then the next hotter load is trouble. Most of the huge AI claims I read before I started building AIs and wildcats came from comparing things like the 257R to AI or the 7x57 to AI Both of these factory rounds were loaded way down. Heck take any cartidge from 52 or 54,000 to 65,000 you will see a gain.

By far the simplest and cheapest is to simply use a 338-06. If you need more velocity get a 338Wmag, need more than that get a 340Wby.

My first test was my 280PDK I took the same barrel from 280 to 280AI to 7mmJrs then 280PDK. At equal pressure best we could measure we saw a 1 for 4.

Don't build an AI a Gibbs or Howell expecting it to be the next magnum or a huge velocity gain. Sure hot handloads will beat magnum factory. But they will not beat handload magnums. MY 340 matched my 338wmag handloads becausue of a 2" longer barrel. Capacity wins in the long run. I build mine to be different and have fun. To me once you leave factory you are on a slippery slope. A STD will sell a heck of a lot better than an AI. The advantage of firing factory ammo in an AI never meant anything to me. To me after you have sunk a heck of a lot of money onto a rifle worrying about is the brass $50/100 or $90/100 or are the dies $60 or $90 is funny money. So why not try and push it as far as you can. Thus I choose to move the shoulder forward. Can't say I ever built a rifle worrying about resale.

Like AIU said a different barrel, chamber, barrel length can make as much or more difference than increasing capacity. Back in May AIU compared his 26" 338-06AI to my 24" 340PDK results. Several things were obvious. His barrel was 2" longer he was using slower powder packing it to 120% I stopped at 105% bottomline they were basically the same. Which would be my expectations. IN a 26" same barrel packed to 120%(provided you could do it with no pressure issues) The 340PDK should have been slighlty ahead. All things equal capacity wins.

Again build what you want to build. Be realistic your expectations. One advantage the larger cases give is it is far easier to find an accurate load at velocities that would be max for the parent. That elk will never know the difference if he was hit by a 338-06, AI Gibbs, Howell or PDK and probaly the 338wmag. Now the 340Wby to me kills on both ends.

Yes I know there are plenty of AI users or any of the various wildcats that have seen or claim huge increases. Compared to what? Other rifles, other barrels, different length barrels, the list goes on. I don't argue with anyones vleocity claims I wasn't there. I just speak from my experience.

Sorry didn't mean to be so long winded.

As simple as simple can be: I have a few AI's in various calibers. Don't expect then to trump any magnums -- but I really have grown an affinity toward them.

Don't know much about Howell so I'll stick to Mr. Ackley.

At the end of the day many of these arguments are not worth much as we have lots of calibers/loadings that pretty much duplicate one or the other. Doesn't mean it aint fun to have a bunch of them

If U like Ackley, buy it and shoot it...