I need a rifle to use, without a can, in a relatively built up area, on deer sized animals, at relatively close range (under 150 yards). I thought a 30-30 with a long barrel, say 30 inches, would do fine, but when I mentioned this at a local club all hell broke loose, I mean no one thought the 30-30 was a good idea,everyone had other suggestions, including various pistol cartridges, some new ideas using extra heavy bullets in subsonic loads. What do you guys think? The report should be as mild as possible. The bullet should be quickly effective with a typical lung shot. No explosive effect like with a varmit round.

quote:

Originally posted by 1Ruger3:
I need a rifle to use, without a can, in a relatively built up area, on deer sized animals, at relatively close range (under 150 yards). I thought a 30-30 with a long barrel, say 30 inches, would do fine, but when I mentioned this at a local club all hell broke loose, I mean no one thought the 30-30 was a good idea,everyone had other suggestions, including various pistol cartridges, some new ideas using extra heavy bullets in subsonic loads. What do you guys think? The report should be as mild as possible. The bullet should be quickly effective with a typical lung shot. No explosive effect like with a varmit round.

For distances under 150 yards, the standard 20" barrel on either a Winchester or Marlin will satisfy your requirements in a 30-30.

Sounds like you need a good 38-55 WCF lever gun with a tang peep. Much quieter than a 30-30 and still deadly. I would load it up a bit hotter then the weak 1100-1150 fps (true velocity) factory stuff. Anything above 1450 fps should suit your needs.

How about a Marlin in .35Remington?

Is your primary goal to minimize noise, or to minimize the dangers from excessive penetration, or both?

In terms of noise, you're on the right track with a longer barrel, smaller volume of powder, and lower pressure. Your thirty"-thirty-thirty meets all of the above criterion, provided you handload it with a frangible bullet. You might find it more suitable to build a bolt action gun in 7.62x39 with a long barrel, and to minimize penetration use 125-130 grain SP bullets, loaded to a modest velocity (say, 2200 fps) and pressure. This would make a quiet and effective deer gun.

Another, more modern, alternative might be a 6.8 Remington with its 115 grain bullet.

If wildcatting is not a problem for you, the 6mm/223 or 6x47 is a possibility, as would be John Wooter's favorite, the .25/222 or ".25 Copperhead". Built on a Mini Mark X with a longish barrel, any of these cartridges loaded with 85-87 grain bullets at modest pressures will be relatively quiet and still quite effective.

A Marlin 1895 in 45-70 (22" barrel), with a 330 grain HP (Lyman 457122 "gould bullet") over 13 grains of Unique will give ~ 1100-1200 fps, and be relatively quiet. Even quieter in a NEF/Wesson&Harrington Buffalo classic with 32" bbl-but not sure if you reload, as this bit of info wasn't provided.

You could also look at rifle slug barrels, or a bolt slug gun like Marlin's M55 (clunky, but accurate for 100 yard shooting), but not quiet.

Overall, if "quietness" is your concern in your hunting area, your not going to be hunting much longer in that area. Better start looking for a new place to shoot and hunt.

It sounds to me that a 12ga slug gun would work fine and there is not much of a problem with the bullet going too far after a hit or a miss.

I guess I am curiuos as to why the gun club fellas had issues with the 30/30. If I read this right it is noise?

I would go either shotgun or mzl loader.

Good luck


Mark D

Another vote for the 35 Rem !

quote:

I would go either shotgun or mzl loader.

I'm in total agreement with Mark. I often hunt "suburban" whitetails. In the area I hunt rifles are not allowed but modern ML's and slugs really are no disadvantage. Of the two I find a good inline muzzleloader more versatile. With a good scope and using sabots you have an honest 150 yard gun.

Jeff

35 rem is considerably better than the 30-30 but the 45-70 is much better than the 35.All you need is the factory 300s .

If you a primarily worried about the noise then a T/C Encore fitted with a 26 inch barrel chambered for a large bore pistol cartridge ought to suffice. If you are going to handload then reduced loads for large bore rifle rounds such as the 405, 444, 450, or 45/70 would also work. All that said, noise is subjective; quiet to us might still be noisy enough to bug the neighbors. Good hunting!

Bowhunt.

My new favorite is an 18" Bullberry in 7 TCU on a Contender, 6x Weaver, sling under 6 pounds out the door. It has killed 6 doe this year at 25 to 130 yds, one shot in the ribs with a Speer 115 gr HP. All found <25 yds from POI.

2nd choice (as Mike and Skibum said) is a H&R Ultra in 20 ga, 2-7x Leupold Compact and sling is 10.5 lbs out the door or a Savage 10ML with smokeless, 250 gr XTP, Nikon 3-9x at 10 lbs too. Both are very deadly on whitetail to 150 yds.

CZ Carbine in 7.62X39 with Winchester soft points. Just about perfect.

How about a Ruger 44 Carbine? I have an old 44 International mounted with a Leupold 1.5-5x that seems like a nice 150 maximum yards combination.

Jeff

How about an marlin 1895 in 41 or 44 mag?

Oh, come on guys, read the post. A 30-30 is considered too much, and you guys are posting suggestions like the 308 Win and the 7.62x39....

If you want to keep noise down, you have to go to high expansion ratio rounds and long barrels. The 44mag rifle is probably as quiet as you can get, but you won't be able to "do" 150 yards. If you need more distance (i.e. more power), you'll make more noise. HTH, Dutch.

What guns/cartridges are the other guys in your club shooting for the area mentioned in your original post?

If your buddies scoffed at the 30-30 you proposed, what did they have to suggest as being their preference?

Dutch-thanks for saying that it's just been killing me some of the responses.

I mean I can't use the 30/30 so I suggest a 35???

Thx

Mark D

On a side Dutch you beat up on any yotes with that 223 ss yet?

Winchester model 1873 in 44-40.

150 yards is toward the end of a 44 Magnum's reasonable "point-blank" range if your shot is going to require several inches of penetration , but no whitetail on Earth is going to run far with a 240 grain 44 Magnum bullet through the lungs. I've never shot a whitetail with a 240 grain Remington factory load that did provide through and through penetration when shot through the lungs.

A quick detour to the Remington site shows that the 240 and 275 grain factory loads are 5.6" and 6.5" low at 150 yards with a 100 yard zero. Do a 2" high zero at 100 yards and 150 yard drop would be less than 5" with either load.

Jeff

If 44 penetration is a concern, just load up some 300 gr cast-cores. Excellent accuracy, and penetration a-plenty on any whitetail from any sane angle.

Maybe I missed out something here but what would be wrong with the 260 Remington. No recoil, not any louder than most, deer die!
You can have one short, fast and nasty.

If he's trying to thin out those built up areas then the 50 bmg may work well. On the other hand if you prefer the sniper route, that just opens up another can of worms.

I'll go with a pistol round in a long barrel a 20 inch plus in 357 44mag or something like this. I have marlin 1894 in 357 mag kills deer just fine and is fairly quite. I think a 26 in barrel would work even better,

Or a hevi cast bullet at 1100 to 1400 in any cailber above 270.

quote:

Originally posted by MontMike:
If he's trying to thin out those built up areas then the 50 bmg may work well. On the other hand if you prefer the sniper route, that just opens up another can of worms.

Ding, Ding, Ding... we have a winner!

My East Coast (Upstate NY) deer buster is a Thompson Center with a Super-14 barrel in .35 Remington. Was a very common rig up there in the late 1980s to mid 1990s.
LLS

I think a 12 ga. shotgun with a rifled brl. might serve you best. I've used a parkerized 870 with a lightened trigger and Hamilton rifled brl. for 10+ yr.s. I get groups of 1" or less at 100 yrd.s and I've killed deer to @125 yrd.s. A hunting buddy a work has used a similar rig successfully to 175. you just have to be sure of the range for shots beyond 100 yrd.s. A range finder helps me with that. I helped a friend shop for a brl. for his Rem. autoloader recently and discovered Hamilton brl.s with muzzle brakes are now available for many popular auto and pump action shotguns. Good hunting.

While in populated areas I prefer a bullet going fast enoiugh to disintegrate on impact with the earth, there is no reason I can see that an accurate .30/30 would not do the trick!

1Ruger3:

What exactly do you mean by a "built up area"? If it is legal to use a rifle, a 30-30 would be fine. (A 35 Rem. would be even better) If you think you can shoot a deer in your neighbor's back woods without them hearing about it - regardless of the deer cartridge you use -forget it. (I don't know about your state but in mine {and I suspect in most states} silencers are illegal for deer hunting! I don't know what you mean by saying "the bullet should be quickly effective with a typical lung shot". Deer shot through the heart might run for a hundred yards. A lung shot deer might run for a heck of a lot longer! (I have tracked deer shot though the lungs who spouted blood and ran for several hundred yards spraying blood with every step - and then the blood flow became very much less - and still the deer went on. You could hit a deer in the lungs with a cannon - and it could be the luck of the game whether he goes down, then and there. If it is important not to disturb the neighbors -then try a 12 ga. shotgun with a Hastings rifled slug barrel. It's easily accurate to 100 yards - and, believe me, that 1 oz. of lead will plant a deer like nothing else! The sound of a shotgun is a "boom" and not an earsplitting crack (as from a high speed bullet or even the echoing sound of the low speed rifle bullet) Just my thoughts.

I have a Mexican Mauser in 7.62x39 with a 22" barrel, it has a very mild muzzle blast.

Get yourself a lever action carbine in 44mag and then load up some 44 special rounds and go hunting. The 44mag is very quiet in a 20" barrel, i would imagine that the 44 special would be just perfect, not too much over-penetration and low to none recoil or report.

If you handload, you can get just about any caliber or rifle ya want....

Remember, most deer ( like 95 % of them) are taken at less than 100 yds...so one does not need a 500 yd rifle with 3500 ft/lbs at the muzzle to go deer hunting...unless you have some testosterone you need to burn up....

Just this evening, I took a 6.5 x 55 out with a load from a cast bullet manual of 12 grains of Unique powder and a 140 grain bullet.... the rifle is a 1920 military Mauser, with the full military furniture still in place....

MV was about 1600 fps.... recoil and retort, was about like a 22 Hornet! I was expecting more recoil and it almost felt like an airrifle... since I was expecting a lot more... but with ear protection on.. what got me was the lack of noise with it also....

Load about anything from 1600 to 1800 fps, and you have your 100 to 150 yd load for deer....

A lot of good everyday bullets open up quite well at the lower velocities.... Super premium ones won't always... a Barnes X will, although I am not a fan of them....but they will beat the pants off of a partition below 2000 fps....

good luck...
seafire

Therein lies the trouble with reduced loads: the bullet selection becomes pretty small.

One of the best solutions is to go to a flat-point design, they usually open up at a couple hundred fps less than the pointy ones.

In all, though, it becomes a guessing game once you go outside of "known parameters". That's why I would go to larger diameter bullets like a 44mag. Known performance, there. JMO, Dutch.

Dutch;

I have had good luck with bullets at slow velocity opening up quite well....

Any round nose, most of Hornady's plain vanilla bullets do well, the Ballistic Tips, Speers Mag Tips....

Most guys don't question there ability to open up at 500 yds... but they will open up just fine at 100 yds, when the velocity is close to the same as they would be traveling at 500 yds, when fired at regular muzzle velocity...

Even Corelokts have surprised me.... Sierra's bullets seem to be harder I'll agree with ya there....I don't recommend them for Reduced loads....

cheers
seafire

my suggestion is the 22 hornet most lung shot deer don't even know they are hit till they fall down, and muzzle blast is not even a consideration.

Or you can use something along the lines of a 25-20 still very quiet and not really dangerous over 200 yds

or for that matter as long as legality is not an issue 22 win mag very quiet and lethal with head and neck shots.

Along the lines of a long barreled pistol cartridge carbine...

Has anyone tried a 209x50 with just one 50 grain pellet under a bore diameter conical? Seems like it ought to attain at least pistol velocities with low muzzle pressure. Unless we hear from someone who has tested the theory and chrono'd the results I'll put it on the list of things to try come Spring. Good hunting!

One more vote for the .44 mag.

I've got a 25-year-old Ruger carbine. Whether shooting the 250 gr. Winchester Partition Gold factory loads, or handloads with everything from the 240 gr. Swift to the 300 gr. Hornady XTP (which seems to be the most accurate bullet of all over a book-max load of H-110), the report is amazingly quiet--on more than one range session, the shooter at the next point thought that I was firing a 10-22.

While I don't really think the .44 is anywhere near as quiet as a .22, despite such comments, it is a relatively low-noise cartride that will quickly drop a whitetail inside of 100 yards, and should do the job just fine at 150, though I've never stretched it that far.

quote:

I don't really think the .44 is anywhere near as quiet as a .22, despite such comments, it is a relatively low-noise cartride that will quickly drop a whitetail inside of 100 yards

I wonder how much quieter it could be if a fella handloaded it so that a 300 LBT left the muzzle of a 24-26 inch barrel at ~1000 fps?