The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 140 grain 7mm bullets: how do nosler partitions and nosler balistic tips compare?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| 140 grain 7mm bullets: how do nosler partitions and nosler balistic tips compare? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
I am loading for a 7X65R. Using the same powders and loads how should I expect the partition and ballistic tips to compare for the same grainage? Is there a general relationship between these two? faster slower, pressures? thanks | ||
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one of us |
The Nosler manual lists all the Btip/Partition of the same wieght with the same data so I'd assume the pressures would be pretty darn close. I'd assume that the speed should be close to. The BT design should give it better down range accuracy but the Partition is the tougher bullet. Not much more I could add. I hope it helps. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
Not sure of the velocity of the 7 x 65 R. However if you are going after deer the Ballistic Tip will more than do the job. However, I prefer velocity under 2600 fps on the Ballistic Tips, to keep down the amount of meat damage on closer shots. The partition is more expensive, not quiet as accurate, but is also more " idiot proof" than the Ballistic tip. As long as you keep your impact velocity above 2000 fps, the partition is a better choice in my book, and experience. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
They don't compare in my opinion, at least as a hunting bullet. The partition is the standard for a big game bullet, however I haven't noticed any major change in data for the two. For deer the older solid base bullet was perfect, of course they don't make them anymore. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Hey Jameister, Is the 7x65R about the same capacity as a 7mmRemMag? What powder(s) were you intending to try? I've got some very limited data concerning both of those bullets with H1000 in 2 different 7mmRemMags. The actual difference in the amount of Powder necessary to achieve the same pressure(using Case Head Expansion and Pressure Ring Expansion) is so small as to be statistically insignificant. That said, I can use a tiny bit more H1000 Powder with the 140gr Partitions and it results in them running 50-60fps faster depending on the rifle used. Normally I don't waste my time with a chronograph, but used it on these specific Loads simply because another buddy was interested in the same information you are looking for. It has been long enough ago(8-10years) that design changes made to the B-Tips since then "probably" make this data totally worthless. You may see what I saw, or the exact opposite might be true in your specific rifle. So, ALWAYS re-develop a Load from below anytime you change a component. It is as true today as it was the first time you ever heard it. ... One additional bit of information, that specific Lot of Partitions just happens to be more accurate in my rifles than that Lot of B-Tips when used at a SAFE MAX Pressure. I would expect this to change from Lot to Lot. [ 08-26-2003, 17:16: Message edited by: Hot Core ] | |||
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| one of us |
I use the Nosler BT and the Nosler Partition 165 grain bullets in my 30-06. The Ballistic tip has a muzzle velocity of about 75 fps higher and groups tighter than the Nosler partition with the same powder load (IMR4350-57grains). On a good shooting day I get just under an inch groups with the partition and on a not so good shooting day I may get up to 1 1/2" groups. The BTs always group better than the partitions. I use the partitions for hunting. | |||
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| one of us |
I have killed several deer with the nosler 150 gr ballistic tip. Every one dropped in it's tracks when the bullet hit the "boiler room" (They all did). One even passed through the right rear knee first on the way through due to the angle offered. I have experienced several complete jacket seperations on that bullet. | |||
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| one of us |
For our US friends:- The 7x65R is in effect a 280rem with a rim. Jameister is loading it in a Merkel break open which allows him to use the same pressures as a 280rem. Most European shooting with such a rifle will be at animals standing broadside or very near broadside. | |||
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| one of us |
Wrong. A higher BC means less wind drift. Less wind drift can improve accuracy substancially even at "normal hunging ranges" unless you hunt on an underground range where there is no wind. A higher BC will retain velocity better at all velocities. Hearing this "no advantage until it's about to reach the speed of sound" BS makes me want to puke. Stop getting your information from ill-informed gun rag writers and make an effort to understand the subject matter at hand instead of passing along mis-information please. Thank you. | |||
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| one of us |
Gosh, Jon, seems like you came down on ol' eldeguello pretty hard.. I think the point he was making is that within "normal" hunting ranges (say, 300 yards or less) the boattail makes little real difference. For example according to my Oehler software, a 180 gr 30 cal flatbase started at 2700 fps, drops about 1" more at 300 yds. than a boattail (Sierra bullets); its energy is about 70fp less and wind drift, in a 10mph-3 oclock wind is 2" greater. Not significant to me but perhaps to you... [ 09-03-2003, 00:08: Message edited by: olarmy ] | |||
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| one of us |
I've used both ballistic tips and partitions in my 7 mag for years. I shoot 150 grain bullets in it. They both shoot to the same point of impact. But I'm shooting around 3100fps and I've had a couple of ballistic tips come apart... which seems to work fine for deer sized game (they died quickly in spite of the "failure") but I wouldn't use them on an elk. Because of the failures I've settled on just the partitions because the ballistic tips didn't really seem to add anything... except I like the way they look! | |||
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| one of us |
I have the gut feeling that over the years flat based bullets have been more accurate for me in my various hunting rifles than boat tails. That said, I have no experience with the ballistic tip bullet but everything I have stuck a partition into has fallen over handily. I have used the 140gr partition out west in a .280 and a 7-08 quite extensively. Jon A, you need that have that ingrown hair in your ass removed. Its giving you a real 'tude. best rgds Bee [ 09-03-2003, 06:47: Message edited by: beemanbeme ] | |||
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| one of us |
In all cases the ballistic tips have been much more accurate for me than the partitions.For deer sized game the ballistic tips have worked very well.I have even taken several elk and moose with the 180gr .308" ballistic tip. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:[doing my best woman impression]It's people like you who make me that way! Besides, I like the hair on my ass just the way it is, thank you very much! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} quote:You're right. I'm sorry. OK, I'm not that sorry. I just get so sick and tired of the same old, "Boatails are meaningless, BC's are overrated/meaningless, etc" crap said by people who are obviously "ballistically challenged." The thing that's really frustrating is it's usually the same people saying it who also say nobody should ever shoot at a game animal over 300 yards--one of their biggest reasons being "you can't predict the wind! Oh, the irony!!! ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} No, the boattail isn't all that important all by itself. But it does increase the BC a little and while it may not make a dramatic difference all by itself, it does make a difference. Your little example means that, in the real world where there usually is some wind, somebody who can only judge the wind to +/- 5 MPH (I only wish I was always that good!) can expect his groups to open up by 2" when shooting on a windy day at 300 yards. So if you were shooting 3" groups with the SPBT's you could expect 5" groups under such conditions given equally accurate bullets. Not a huge difference, but the original statement attacked by eldeguello was simply, "The BT design should give it better down range accuracy." But he also generalized the statement into saying that BC's didn't really matter for hunting. Now, run your same comparison with a roundnose and see what the wind drift difference is. Part of the "BT design" is a very sharp tip. Run the roundnose comparison against a Ballistic Tip. Now you are starting to get a really significant difference in wind drift! So if one cares about downrange accuracy and he doesn't hunt where there is never a wind, a high BC bullet offers an advantage--at ranges well short of the bullet's "nearing the sound barrier." I�m not here for people to like me. When parents tell their teens not to smoke crack, the kids often hate the parents. Oh well, call it tough love. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} I am here so that when somebody says something like this: quote:I can say:  I mean, simply opening any reloading manual currently published will show anybody who goes through the trouble of doing so that this is not the case. And for those of you upon whom it is lost, I do have a sense of humor. Sometimes I forget to add all the little thingies at the proper location when I say something a bit �tongue-in-cheek.� Besides, the software this board runs on only allows eight of those things per post!!! (insert eek face here) | |||
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| one of us |
Actually, Jon A, out to 300 yards, a round nosed bullet holds it own very well to a spitzer. Even a boat tailed spitzer. I don't have any impressive numbers to give you -being somewhat ballistically challenged-; my position however is based on the empirical knowledge gained from shooting different bullets at different distances under differing conditions. I am also one of the folks that rarely shoot at game much beyond 300 yards. I could probably do it and do it well as I practice shooting quite a lot and from distances well beyond 300 yards. I just wouldn't be comfortable doing it. I think of myself as a better hunter than that. I do not subscribe to the current philosophy that if you pop a deer from some extreme distance, it means you're a better hunter (read macho man)than say someone that stalks within handshake distance before popping his cap. It may mean you are a better shot, or you have more expensive equipment, or you have access to a shooting bench overlooking a large deer meadow but you certainly are not a better hunter. So, you see, Jon A, there are many ways to look at the elephant. Thus, you should be more patient with those of us that don't know it all even tho we try to offer up our widow's mite of experience to the collection. | |||
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One of Us |
Jon A: then all the guys who post here who are African PHs must make you nuts. Almost to a man, they all say 300 should be a good limit. As to the BT,there was an interesting article in one of the {sic} "Gun Rags" that virtually said what edelguello said and it was written by either Ross Seyfried or Layne Simpson,whose credentials are pretty indisputable. I have looked at ballistics tables and the advantage of a boat tail bullet is insignificant. Further, the BT design WAS designed for the military to do exactly what Edelguello was alluding to. There is a reason as to why NONE of the premium bullet makers make any bullet designed for penetration and weight retention use a boat tail design, not even the monolithic ones. I'm sorry f I've made you want to puke, but there it is. jorge | |||
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| one of us |
quote:I shot my whitetail buck from 15 yards last year. Assuming whatever you may have gotten last year was taken from a longer range, does that make me a better hunter than you? quote:If I had to deal with the marksmanship of the "average hunter" (who most likely has never practiced beyond 100 yards) on a day to day basis, I'd probably say that too. Actually I'd probably say 200. Anyway, if you guys want to yell at me, Jack O'Connor or anybody else who has taken shots from beyond 300 there are a couple of threads for that over in the "Hunting" section. quote:That article was first and foremost in my mind when I made that comment. In fact, I'd be willing to bet edelguello had it in front of him when he typed his post. Lousy article. He does mention wind drift in the beginning, but the comparisons that "prove his point" are drop figures. He also states in the beginning that one shouldn't win the argument with ballistic tables-but with a hunter shooting a real hunting rifle. Of course then he argues over ballistics tables instead of grabbing a real hunting rifle and shooting some real bullets at some real targets at the ranges he is comparing them-that might have been worthwhile.quote:A 2" increase in group size, as in the example above, is significant to me. It's really amusing to me how so many people on this site (not you specifically) are so concerned about accuracy-or at least their group sizes at 100 yards. Many won't hunt with a load that will "only" shoot 1.5" groups. They won't buy bullets that will only do that well. They really "need" to shoot sub 1" groups�. Even a fairly small deer isn't that tiny. 4" groups is more than adequate accuracy for hunting at 100 yards. And yet many of these same people don't know or even seem to care how accurate their loads are out where the accuracy of the rifle actually might matter. They might be surprised. Sometimes a load that shoots 1.5" at 100 will be more accurate at 300 than another load that shoots below 1" at 100. Within reason, accuracy at 100 yards is pretty meaningless. But mentioning ways to improve accuracy out where accuracy really matters is scoffed at. These people burn up all this ammo, try all these different bullets, powders, seating depths, etc, trying to shave that last tiny bit off their groups. And yet if their group sizes at 300 yards nearly doubles (if they'd bother to find out) they don't care. It's "insignificant." If they never take long shots, fine. But then why are they so worried about accuracy? Why do they care about group sizes at all? quote:Let's see, Barnes XBT, XLC, Tripleshock�. GS customs�. Those "Groove bullets"�. Hmm, I can't think of a monolithic that doesn't come with, or at least offer the choice of a boattail. Also the Scirocco, Interbond, and Accubond are all designed to retain more weight and penetrate farther than standard bullets. | |||
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| one of us |
Jorge -So are you are saying that the barnes x boatails do not penetrate as well or retain as much weight as other premium bullets such as the partition or a-frame?How about the G-S customs?If you are we need a shovel because the B.S. is getting deep. [ 09-04-2003, 07:10: Message edited by: stubblejumper ] | |||
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| one of us |
I'll stay out of the ballistic pissing contest. My basic practice is to shoot Ballistic Tip's for practice and Partitions when hunting. The BT's are cheaper and for me they are a very accurate bullet. I willingly sacrifice some accuracy with Partitions. My groups open up to about 1.25" which for me is acceptable and I get the performance on game I want. Jeff | |||
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| One of Us |
oops, I purposely left out the Xs because they are monolithic so the disadavantage of core bonding doesn't apply, but I guess I overestimated the knowledge of some.... As to the Scirocco, I don't consider that in the same league as a regular A Frame, TBBC, African Grand Slams, etc. BUT yes I WAS MISTAKEN in that regard. Jon you are right, I am definetly not of the bench-rest-accuracy- uber-alles crowd, but I do have significant tactical experience in long range shooting and the military application of the BT design IS AS DESCRIBED in that article. Since you are an engineer for Boeing, I'm sure you know the intricacies of ballictics more than I or most gun writers for that matter so I won't dwell on the point, only to say that between 0 and 400 yards, at least in a 300 Weatherby with 180gr ammo, the difference in drop is about .2" and THAT IS INSIGNIFICANT. To me any group under 1.5" is good enough although I prefer 1" or less. jorge | |||
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| one of us |
Jon A, are you an eng at boeing? You don't design cargo pit doors do you? (sorry just couldn't resist  )What I got last year was a nice eight pointer. I was coming back from the mail box in the truck (it was raining) and the buck had come down to visit the does that hang out around my yard. I had a 7-08 in the truck. I got it out, loaded it. He stood and watched me until I pointed the rifle at him. He then started moving acrost the face of the hill he was standing on. He wasn't skinning it back yet but he had definitely seen enough. Maybe 15 yards away. At the shot, he went down and slid down the hill, ending under my wife's car. I shot him with a 154gr Hornady RN bullet at a slightly quartering angle with the bullet going in behind the left elbow and exiting in front of the right shoulder. Perfect pump shot. Does that make me a better hunter than anyone????? Hell no! It does mean that at that particular moment I should have been robbing a bank or buying a lottery ticket as I was one lucky SOB. Actually, I didn't think of myself as hunting but rather I was harvesting me some freezer meat. A couple of days later, I stalked and killed a doe for some folks that needed some food. (she wasn't one of my yard deer) I shot her at about 50 yards. [ 09-04-2003, 23:40: Message edited by: beemanbeme ] | |||
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| one of us |
My experience has been that the Ballistic Tip is generally more accurate than the Partition and works fine on deer sized game but beyond that I would go with the Partition every time. I also do a lot of paper punching at 800 yards and for that the Ballistic Tip works as well or better than anything I have shot. The Partition cannot keep up with it at that range but neither can any other flat based bullet I am aware of. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:That makes no sense�because you specifically stated �monolithic.� You were the one who mentioned them in the first place! ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} quote:None of those are �monolithic.� While the Scirocco doesn�t seem to be the deepest penetrator, it does retain weight well�one of the properties you specified for a �Premium� bullet. The AccuBond will penetrate neck and neck with those listed under most conditions. But I would expect the A-Frame and TBBC to penetrate farther when impact velocity is low enough they hardly open up�not a desirable trait in my opinion. quote:How and why it came to be invented is irrelevant. It is the end result that matters�it can reduce wind drift significantly at �normal� hunting ranges. That�s what matters here. It doesn�t do a huge amount all by itself, but it does help. It all adds up. Take away the boattail, put a blunt tip on it (like any of the bullets you listed above) and you have a very big difference in wind drift at anything farther than spitting distance. quote:The sad thing is I really do. And they get paid to write that stuff.... But it doesn�t have anything to do with my career at Boeing�I�m a structures guy, not aero. It would be hard for me to have such an understanding of this stuff without the basic Engineering background, however. quote:And of course you don�t mention the wind drift.... quote:I�m a stress analyst for the 747 fuselage structure. I support manufacturing, design changes, Airlines who have a plane down in service, etc, and lately quite a bit of stuff for Flight Test. Putting my name on the Engineering Drawings says �It won�t break.� That doesn�t do much for my understanding of ballistics, but I have been studying that subject since I was 10 years old reading O�Connor books in bed when I was supposed to be asleep. But my Engineering background (physics, fluid dynamics classes, etc) has helped me understand things a bit better now. quote:The one I got last year I snuck up upon in the thick brush. While I�m proud of that, I won�t pretend that luck had nothing to do with it. It always does in hunting. I�ve done that more times than I can count but most of the time I find a �small� buck at the end and let him go. This one was a �keeper.�  But just the day before I had either him or his twin in my crosshairs from beyond 300 and decided to let him go (it was my first day of hunting that season and I simply didn�t want to stop hunting already). But had I decided to take him, I don�t think that would have made me any less of a hunter. Being able to take him, had I chosen to do so, having that ability I think makes me a better hunter (given my definition at least.) Marksmanship is a part of hunting ladies and gentlemen. It always has been, it always will be. Jack O�Connor thought so. Elmer Keith thought so. Every good hunter who has ever lived has been very proficient with his tool of choice. To hear you people talk, one could be the best mechanic in the world but not be able to work a wrench worth a damn. �Sorry, I can�t get that bolt out. It�s hard to reach so I can�t get the wrench on it. I prefer those close and easy bolts!� �Are you kidding? What am I paying you for? Give me the damn wrench! You suck! You�re fired!� To those who say, �they�d rather get closer� well duh, wouldn�t we all? Sometimes you can�t. Not even the best �hunters of our time.� In that case, if you can�t hit the broad side of a barn at 300 yards with your $2000 custom fancy-assed CRF 30-06, and you need to get closer because you can�t shoot worth a damn, I�d say that doesn�t make you a better hunter. It makes you a lousy shot who hunts. You go home empty-handed because you can�t shoot. You go home thinking you�re �a better hunter� because that giant bull or buck was at 350 yards and you couldn�t get closer. You just keep telling yourselves that if it makes you feel better. Having the ability to �harvest� that animal under those conditions and not go home empty-handed makes me feel better. I know many here will simply say that�s because I�m a better shot and not a better hunter. Whatever. Shooting is part of hunting, if you hadn�t noticed. Like I said before, I snuck up on a big buck to within 15 yards last year. I can do that. Does having the ability to nail him at 400 (if that�s the only chance I�m going to get) somehow make me a worse hunter? It�s my opinion that you people simply are lousy shots. 300 yards is not that far. Shiest, I was nailing beer cans at that distance with my 7-08 before I was old enough to drive a car! And you people can�t hit a deer or elk from that range? You are the ones who should be ashamed of yourselves. Not just because you suck as marksmen, but because any good hunter who is by definition a good marksman, you lambaste and call them �unethical��because they can make the shots that you can�t. You try to make people feel guilty for nailing their game with a single shot, killing it quickly and cleanly�only because it happened at a distance from which you couldn�t do it-----------Because you suck! Learn how to shoot! Please! To give you an idea, here�s where I grew up and will be hunting for another (hopefully bigger) whitetail this year:  You see that river bottom that is well wooded? That�s where you still hunt and can sneak up to within 15 yards of a big buck (if you�re good enough). Walk 100 yards to the right or left and you can see a big buck more than a mile away. How far are those mountains in the background? 800 yards? A mile? No, they�re about 20 miles away. That�s how �big� this country is for those of you who have never hunted ground like this. Damn, this post is so good I think I need to copy it over to another thread. Damn, I'm good! Yes, I'm being cocky again. If you don't like it go take a.....nevermind! [ 09-06-2003, 13:23: Message edited by: Jon A ] | |||
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| <Greg Langelius> |
To get back to the original question; yes, there are performance differences. The partition is a 'harder' bullet than the BT. It will penetrate more and open slower on impact, and should be used on tougher game than the BT. This also affects internal ballistics. The harder bullet will generate more friction as it obturates, resulting in higher pressures and velocities. It will require a different load to generate the same velocity (usually a lighter load), and even with that same velocity, will travel a different trajectory due to BC differences. Each bullet design is different, will require a different load, and will perform differently. Substituting one bullet for another will not result in the same performance, and can be dangerous up around the max charge level. Greg PS, I don't have an application for Partitions. About 95% of my shooting is paper punching, either in, or preparing for, match competition. My experience with hunting bullets is that they tend to have softer jackets, and the increased copper fouling makes them a lot less suitable for match shooting, where longer strings of fire are performed. I often use Ballistic Tips for target applications, and they double very nicely for Varmint loads in .22 and .26 caliber chamberings. Most of my shooting is done at the longer distances for a given caliber's capability. Therefore, I use boat-tails almost exclusively. My sole reason is because they retain velocity better. I think that for shorter distances, the flat base bullets tend to be more accurate, and the faster velocity losses have almost negligible effects of their overall suitability. BR shooters (except 1000yd BR) seem to primarily choose flat base bullets for 100 and 200yd applications. Longrange competitors seem to prefer boattails almost exclusively. These folks do a lot of testing, and base their choices on results. [ 09-06-2003, 17:25: Message edited by: Greg Langelius ] | ||
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| One of Us |
"wind drift," in aviation and in ballistics(.all tables, time speed distance equations) are in a "no wind" scenario . I there is a wind, then you plug it in so I did. In a 10 knot, 90 deg X wind the difference in drft at 300 yards between a BT and a flatbase 165 gr bullet ( out of an 06) is a bout 1" and that to me is insignificant. I believe most of us here can take shots at 300 or more yards and I don't consider that unethical by any means. Sure I'd like to get closer, but more importantly, it depends on the game at hand. You'll never see me take a shot at say, a leopard, buffalo, brown bear ( read expensive and dangerous), but at a deer, hog, etc. , no problem. The bottom line is that flat base bullets hold up much better than BTs do. On deer I don't like to use the premium anyway, I stick to Hornadys but NEVER boat tails if I can help it. What Greg says is absolutely on the money. Good and cocky? from an engineer? okie-doke. jorge [ 09-06-2003, 16:49: Message edited by: jorge ] | |||
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| one of us |
I hunt almost entirely on open fields or in the mountains where ranges tend to be much longer and wind is often a factor.According to my tables the same bullet in a boattail design will deflect about 2" less at 400 yards than a flat base in a 10mph wind.With a 20 mph wind which is common where I hunt that doubles to 4" which does become a factor in making a clean kill. As far as accuracy ,my own rifles average 1/2" groups at 100 yards with ballistic tips but that opens up to 1-1/2" with partitions.At 400 yards my ballistic tip groups average between 2" and 3" while the partitions run 6" to 8". So for my type of hunting the ballistics tips much greater accuracy and reduced wind drift do become an important factor in proper bullet placement.For the hunter that shoots in tight woods at distances under 100 yards the differences are insignificant.In the end it all comes down to the conditions that you hunt under. [ 09-06-2003, 19:32: Message edited by: stubblejumper ] | |||
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| one of us |
quote:It all adds up. Compare an A-Frame to a Scirocco:  300 Yards 8.34" 400 Yards 15.58"  300 Yards 6.24" (more than 2" less) 400 Yards 11.51" (4" less) An increase in wind drift by more than 1/3--simply by bullet choice--is significant to anybody who wants the best accuracy at those ranges. If you go to the range on a windy day and try to get the A-Frames to group as well at 400 as the Sciroccos (assuming similar accuracy at 100) you had better pack a lunch. And if you can't be accurate at the range first you shouldn't expect to be accurate on game. Of course this isn't due to the boattail alone, but it contributes. That's the point. It all adds up. Add up enough small factors and you can end up with a significant difference in the end. The boattail is part of the overall picture. For the sake of comparison, I'll cheat (the wind):  300 Yards 4.36" (4" less) 400 Yards 7.96" (more than 7 1/2" less) By launching a 200 AccuBond at 3177, I've cut wind drift in half. Is it becoming significant now? We all know boattails are worthless. BC's are meaningless. "Loudnboomer" magnums are a waste of powder, etc.... It's funny what happens when you add up all those little "insignificant" advantages. And the boattail is one of these. quote:And that is a false statement unless you qualify it first. It simply is not true for monolithics or bonded bullets. Your standard Hornadies, sure. But don't blame that on the boattail. If you want a bullet to hold together, there are other choices. | |||
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| one of us |
Well as post originator, and now more experienced with these two fine bullets, I am happy to report that most of you score high marks for my question!!! The partition does go faster than the ballitic tip in my rifle, with the same powder load. Strangely, the partition also goes straighter(faster) and even more strangely, so far it also prints better groups at 100 and 200 yards. Maybe it is time to thank the gungods and just "get to the hill". but of course, I will keep looking. And to those divergent folks who like to argue less filing, half full or better tasting, I say "Fight on". You make it entertaining!! Cheers and back to the 200 yard range | |||
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| One of Us |
Jamemeister: Don't know what a "loudenboomer" is but I normally hunt with a 300 Weatherby and either 180gr Hornadys or Partitions ( both flat based). Most folks in the know in the business eschew boat tails in conventional or premium non- monos, because they do not hold up as well as others. I've always had bad luck with Xs and accuracy. Sure BTs are made for long range work ( I've shot the 1k range at Quantico ) but I can hit just as well with my flat base bullets and not have to worry if ( god forbid) I have ro shoot at short range, my bullet won't come apart on BIG Game ( elk and bigger). jorge | |||
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| one of us |
Jorge-Don't talk to loudly or my boatails might get offended and start coming apart on elk and moose.To date I have taken four elk and two bull moose( weighing up to 1200lbs) and my boatailed ballistic tips have performed very well.Those bullets were launched out of my 300ultramag at 3375fps so impact velocities were quite high as well.As long as the bullets and the elk and moose don't know any better I expect the great bullet performance to continue. [ 09-07-2003, 04:23: Message edited by: stubblejumper ] | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Please provide a technical explanation why the boattail on a Nosler has any affect on how well the bullet will hold together.  It doesn't even have any lead in it. | |||
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| one of us |
"It doesn't even have any lead in it. " You had me with you most of the way, until this questionable statement... what is the grey matter? | |||
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| one of us |
In the boattail. | |||
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| one of us |
Since the boattail is below the core and the core is the same shape as it would be in a flat base bullet, the boattail will have no effect on how the bullet holds together or penetrates.Since the core is bonded in this bullet it will hold together better than flat based bullets without a bonded core. [ 09-07-2003, 07:22: Message edited by: stubblejumper ] | |||
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| <heavy varmint> |
John A., The mushroomed boattail Nosler in your picture looks in great shape but does appear to have lost its jacket. Is that the case? Hard to tell for sure from looking at the picture. | ||
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| one of us |
Nope. The core is bonded and won't come out. Here's a top view (it's the second bullet from the right):  Here's the front view of all those:  | |||
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| <heavy varmint> |
Thanks John, I can see the copper base in the second picture and realize now that the base is just almost perfectly "Painted?" with lead. All those bullets look good. What did you stop them with and at what range? | ||
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| one of us |
Those were recovered from wood, a few feet from the muzzle. Impact velocities from 2900 to 3300+ fps. | |||
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| One of Us |
Remember the original question was between partitions and Ballistic Tips NOT ACCUBONDS which is an entirely different proposition. The regular construction Boat Tails like Hornadys, Nosler BTs, Sierra Pro-Hunters, etc. The New Accubonds were not mentioned until one of you brought it up. Regardless, I Looked at the tables again and there is less than an inch difference in drift ( 10 knot X wind) at 300 yards with similar 180gr 06s. It does look like Accubonds give you the best of both worlds ( much like Xs, but like I said, I can't get them to shoot, operator error I guess) and I do agree they make a better proposition all around. It's time to consider them and I will, but conventional bullets BTs are more prone to come apart. And regarding Nosler Ballistic Tips, they shot GREAT out on my 7mm Weatherby Mag ( 140gr) but they came apart miserably on a 275lb hog shot at 80 yards. I put them in the same league as Sierras ( that I've never used, but have spoken with enough folks and read enough to know they don't hold up at magnum velocities)No way you're going to convince me that they are a bullet of choice for game larger than deer, rergardless of how much game some of you have taken with them. I love to shoot game at longer distances and have taken a few deer and one antelope in excess of 300 yards. But please don't say that hunting say, a Cape buffalo or a bear at spitting distance is not hunting either. We all should strive to have the ability to shoot different game at distances dictated by the species you are hunting ( shooting a buff or a bear at 400 yards is unrealistic and idiotic) .But don't think you are a better hunter than me ( or anyone else) just because you can shoot deer at long range. Like Ruark said, I don't care what animal you can hit at 200 yards, I want to see what you can do at ten feet ( he was referring of course to dangerous game). So a good hunter must be able to hit at ALL distances. If some of you have done this also, well I am truly impressed. . I'll be sure to give the new Accubonds a try. ANybody used them yet on real game? jorge [ 09-08-2003, 04:01: Message edited by: jorge ] | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 140 grain 7mm bullets: how do nosler partitions and nosler balistic tips compare?
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