The 6.5 Creedmoor is a great cartridge that was designed to work in short magazines for long range competition in 2006.

The 270 was designed for hunting in 1925 I believe and has excelled at that all those years though it has been blighted by the accuracy crowd and no good bullets are made for it to compete.

Competition is a quite different game than hunting. A lot of the long range competitors are gravitating to the 6mm's for less recoil.

With a good accurate rifle and good bullets the 270 will perform well for the task it was intended. It still has more goat glands than the Creedmoor and always will. It's case volume is just bigger.

Both cartridges are fine.

Joe

I like both cartridges but the .270 is the better chambering in my opinion because of it's hunting applications. I also think the .270 WSM is better yet in the hunting fields. Good Shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I don't know why anyone would shoot a 7mm-08 instead of a 280 Remington unless it's the fact that it has less recoil.

The recoil difference is marginal. The real advantage is the ability to use a short action and a rifle designed around the shorter cartridge.

If a short action versus long action is that much of a concern then buy a straight pull......

quote:

Originally posted by MLG:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I don't know why anyone would shoot a 7mm-08 instead of a 280 Remington unless it's the fact that it has less recoil.

The recoil difference is marginal. The real advantage is the ability to use a short action and a rifle designed around the shorter cartridge.

If a short action versus long action is that much of a concern then buy a straight pull......

That doesn't matter--it how close to your face the rear of the bolt is-I like to be able to run the bot while shouldered, I don't like hitting myself in the nose!

I really like the concept of the 6.5 CM. I think at some point I will own one. With Lapua now making brass and more manufacturers chambering in the cartridge I am sure it will be with us for years to come.

Performance is good and my understanding is that it was specifically designed for target shooters and that Hornday had the concept of creating a cartridge that would shoot well with their off the shelf ammunition, which I hear the rifles generally do.

The 6.5mm bullets have good sectional density in the heavier bullets weights and all the BS about dynamic SD in expanding bullets and the concept applying to solids only, the reality is that SD does mean something. Of course the vast difference between bullets can wreak havoc with the idea, but stacking the decks in your favour is a good thing.

That said, having run the ballistic calculators numerous times to try to convince myself, it's only at really long range that the 6.5 CM creeps into the rear view mirror of the 270 Win and slightly edges ahead in some areas. A 130gr Berger Classic Hunter at 3100fps vs. a CM 140gr at 2720fps is a battle the 6.5 is not winning close up and by little inside about 700m; on paper anyway. I'm not sure if shooters are exceeding those velocities of the factory CM loads by much, in which case this may look different. Recoil of the 270 is worth considering and I do think a 6.5 CM is probably an easier cartridge to get to shoot.

Buy whichever one you like, but I'd prefer a 270 for most hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:

quote:

Originally posted by MLG:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I don't know why anyone would shoot a 7mm-08 instead of a 280 Remington unless it's the fact that it has less recoil.

The recoil difference is marginal. The real advantage is the ability to use a short action and a rifle designed around the shorter cartridge.

If a short action versus long action is that much of a concern then buy a straight pull......

That doesn't matter--it how close to your face the rear of the bolt is-I like to be able to run the bot while shouldered, I don't like hitting myself in the nose!

I can run a 416 Rigby from the shoulder wo taking the rifle down. I have not very hit myself with a bolt. Just to show I know I am not perfect, I have cut my trigger finger on the rear of the front trigger by relaxing my shooting grip under recoil after firing the back trigger.

I do the same with my 500 Jeffery, haven't broken my nose yet lol I will not shoot it prone.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

posted by tjRoberts:
.257 Roberts

With todays' pressures and powders, imagine a 100gnTTSX at 3350fps, or a 115TTSX at 3150fps in a standard chamber Roberts.
.

Would you mind sharing your loads for those?

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

posted by tjRoberts:
.257 Roberts

With todays' pressures and powders, imagine a 100gnTTSX at 3350fps, or a 115TTSX at 3150fps in a standard chamber Roberts.
.

Would you mind sharing your loads for those?

Thank you for calling me on this.
They were guesstimates based on the Hodgdon website and extrapolating to pressures 50-52CUP and 60-62k psi.
However, on re-looking at these figures I see that the loads used for extrapolation were already compressed and may not hold what would be needed to raise pressures to 52kCUP (e.g. 48gn Hybrid 100V is listed for 100gn-bullet at 3205fps and only 45,400CUP. 5000 more CUP would easily add 150fps but would 50grains Hy100V fit?)

Another way to guesstimate is to look at average max muzzle energies of cartridges like 243Win, 260Rem, 7-08 and then place the 257Bob in line, closer to 260 than 243, because of closer diameter and extra length of case.

7-08 with 140grain-bullets produces about 2550 foot-pounds (2865fps). Some load to 2600ft#.

260Win with 129gn-bullets produces about 2400 foot-pounds (2900fps),

257Bob . . . . . if we guesstimated 2300ft#, then a 100gn bullet would be 3225fps, and 115 gn would be 3000fps.
(It would take the 257 Ackley Improved to reach the guesstimates that I listed in the previous post.)

243Win with 95-100gn-bullets produces about 2100 ft-pounds max.

If i were to get a 257Roberts, and the idea is appealing, I would expect to load a 100gnTTSX bullet to around 3200fps in a 22" barrel using something like 46-48grains of H4350. Of course, even 3100fps would be just fine for deer hunting, the question would be the most accurate load.

Hybrid 100V is good shit !
Basically 4350 with some serious chemistry added to lower pressure and allow for higher velocities...... this is pure 6.5 CM country !

416:

muzzle pressure?? don't know what that is, or how it would be useful, but the units of pressure are force per unit area, such as pounds per square inch, or newtons per square meter, NOT foot-pounds. Perhaps you were referring to the muzzle energy of the projectiles?

At any rate, your velocities from the Roberts are too rich for my blood. If I need that much velocity, I'll reach for a 25/06. YMMV

Olarmy,
thank you. I've corrected the post. I must have been thinking ahead about pressure levels while writing 'muzzle energies'. My point on the 257Roberts is that the books load to about 46000CUP, but a rifle today is good for 52CUP, conservatively. At 2000-2500 CUP per 100fps there is obviously a lot of room for improvement in the old Bob. With whatever the Bob can do, if I wanted a more than that 250fps over traditional book velocity, I would probably just grab a 270. The 270win can do 3400fps with the 110TTSX, which means lights out on deer-sized game.

Still, the Bob is a great little round and even 3100fps with 100gn means lights-out, too.

If a bigger case creates a superior cartridge in calibers of 6.5 or .257 then we should all get a 257 Weatherby Magnum. My ears hurt just typing that one.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Still, the Bob is a great little round and even 3100fps with 100gn means lights-out, too.

Agreed! And it works pretty dang well with a 117-120 at 2900ish, too!

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
If a bigger case creates a superior cartridge in calibers of 6.5 or .257 then we should all get a 257 Weatherby Magnum. My ears hurt just typing that one.

We are probably agreeing.
I view cartridges as having a useful range of hunting bullets for appropriate sizes of game animals. For me the diameters of .243, .257, and .264 are good up to deer, but a hunter is pushing them to go to elk, though I'm not saying that they cannot take elk.

So a .257 is a nifty little deer diameter and it needs a powder capacity that gets a 100gn-bullet into the 2900-3200fps range. None of the diameters .243, .257, .264 need a magnum cartridge case, in my opinion. I don't even see a need for a 25-06, though that round seemed to get a lot of push back in the 80's and after. The Bob will work great out to 400 yards, and a .257 doesn't really have bullets with BC's for hunting beyond that. While I've shot animals up to and including 400 yards, I've never shot at one beyond that, so the 257Bob would cover 99.9% of deer-sized hunting. Yes, I left 0.1% open for a 500-yard pronghorn, which I have never done or tried, and for which, yes, I would prefer a larger caliber with a sleeker bullet.

On the other hand--yes we have two hands--there are times when we want to be ready for more than deer.
I vote for using a larger diameter than 24-26. The natural step-up that I would recommend is the 270Win, 280Rem, or 30-06. Jim Carmichael and Jack O-Connor called them the "three sisters." They three are good to 400 yards, though maybe running out of steam for elk at that range. While in my younger days I thought that a 300 mag would be the ideal NorthAmerican caliber, I now think that one of the three sisters is plenty for the lower-48, though I might be talked into a 300WSM or 300WM in a light Tikka rifle. But without being talked into it, I would just opt for the 30-06, maybe trying one of those new Ruger Americans, guaranteeing under 1-MOA in a factory rifle under $500. Wow.

And if I wanted an elk rifle that was good for 300-400 yards, I would go with the 338WinMag. Come to think of it, the 338WinMag works pretty nice on African plains game. So for me, as one increases the game size, one should increase diameter and then match an appropriate case capacity that will have some authority at 400 yards. The 338WM does that, though so would a 375Ruger. I don't really see the need for a larger, super-magnum capacity until going over .400 and the 416Rigby certainly fills the bill.

And I thank you for providing an excuse to outline a general hunter's approach to caliber selection.

All of this great discussion has me wondering, is there not a 6.5-06 based factory round?

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
All of this great discussion has me wondering, is there not a 6.5-06 based factory round?

I'm not sure anyone's producing large scale factory ammo for it, nor factory rifles, but the 6.5-06 a-square and AI exist.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
All of this great discussion has me wondering, is there not a 6.5-06 based factory round?

The 6.5-06 helps see the parameters at play in the 6.5Creedmoor and 270Win.

In case length, the '06 cases are approximately 2.5" (officially 2.494" for 30-06), while the 308-based cases are 2.015". So the 270 (2.54") is an '06 family, while the Creedmoor is a modernized 308-family, dropping back to 1.92". (The more traditional short case round is the 260 Rem. at 2.015") The Creedmoor pushes the case back so that a longer bullet can be held closer to its rear while still fitting in a short-action magazine. The Creedmoor must run things hot, at higher pressure, in order to get respectable velocities for heavy-for-caliber bullets. The 260Rem would be a natural choice for medium-length and medium-weight bullets in .264".


In terms of caliber, we should probably think of a scale between 24 and 30, where the short case .243 stands at one side and the long case 30-06 stands at the other end. The middle-ground compromise is around .2755", which is exactly where the 270 stands (.277").

However, the 270 does not stand in the middle of a scale of case capacity. Instead, the 270 uses the full length of the 30-06, plus a tad (2.54"). That is what makes the 270 almost a magnum in terms of capacity to bore, especially with lighter bullets 110-130grain. The 6.5-06 reduces the bore another 5% while maintaining relative case length and capacity. By increasing rifle twist it can maintain similarly weighted bullets to the 270. Traditionally, the 270 has been designed for velocity. Its bullets have ranged in the 110-150 grain range but there is nothing from preventing a longer-range 170 grain bullet and perhaps a twist in the 8"-9" range. Most 270 users are practical hunters and have not pushed the envelope with this cartridge beyond 500 yards.

If we look for truly middle-ground cartridges with relatively sized capacities we find a remarkable little sub-family of cartridges, the 7x57 Mauser [.284", 7.21mm], 6.5x55 Swede [.263", 6.68mm], and 257Roberts [6.52mm, .257]. These cartridges use a case length around 2.23" (the Swede is a little shorter at 2.165"). That case length would allow extra long bullets to be used in standard length actions and magazines, should the desire arise. The only drawback with this sub-set of cartridges is that they are so old that standard factory ammo typically restricts loadings to lower pressures. Otherwise, with modern pressure reaching to 65kPSI, these cartridges would kick some butt. The Mauser and Swede are already famous around the world as non-dangerous game hunting rounds.

None of the above are better than any of the others. They are all choices along sliding scales of diameter, case capacity, and case length, coupled with rifle availability, rifle standards, and bullet availability.

Pretty nice.

Great informative post, thanks!

Best for what purpose is the question.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is by far best for target shooting.
The 270 is best for hunting.
Different cartridges for different purposes.
Why are we wasting time comparing apples to oranges?

You can't compare a Creedmore to a .270, gun 101 says the .270 shoots bigger bullets faster, holds more powder..That is so damn basic, the rest is BS..

If one wants to make a case for the Creedmore or my favorite the 250-3000 then say its no .270 Win but it is mild or recoil, mild of muzzle blast and fully capapble of killing deer size animals with ease, The wife and kids can shoot it, Metro faggy men love it, cowboys like it, ranchers and farmers like it, that's the beauty of the creedmore and 250 Savage, even the .243 albeit Im not fond of the 243!!

quote:

Metro faggy men love it

Great description Mr. Atkinson. Gave me a good laugh ! Thankyou for a bit of humour in my day. I'm sure I can use that in conversation somewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
All of this great discussion has me wondering, is there not a 6.5-06 based factory round?

The 6.5-06 helps see the parameters at play in the 6.5Creedmoor and 270Win.

In case length, the '06 cases are approximately 2.5" (officially 2.494" for 30-06), while the 308-based cases are 2.015". So the 270 (2.54") is an '06 family, while the Creedmoor is a modernized 308-family, dropping back to 1.92". (The more traditional short case round is the 260 Rem. at 2.015") The Creedmoor pushes the case back so that a longer bullet can be held closer to its rear while still fitting in a short-action magazine. The Creedmoor must run things hot, at higher pressure, in order to get respectable velocities for heavy-for-caliber bullets. The 260Rem would be a natural choice for medium-length and medium-weight bullets in .264".


In terms of caliber, we should probably think of a scale between 24 and 30, where the short case .243 stands at one side and the long case 30-06 stands at the other end. The middle-ground compromise is around .2755", which is exactly where the 270 stands (.277").

However, the 270 does not stand in the middle of a scale of case capacity. Instead, the 270 uses the full length of the 30-06, plus a tad (2.54"). That is what makes the 270 almost a magnum in terms of capacity to bore, especially with lighter bullets 110-130grain. The 6.5-06 reduces the bore another 5% while maintaining relative case length and capacity. By increasing rifle twist it can maintain similarly weighted bullets to the 270. Traditionally, the 270 has been designed for velocity. Its bullets have ranged in the 110-150 grain range but there is nothing from preventing a longer-range 170 grain bullet and perhaps a twist in the 8"-9" range. Most 270 users are practical hunters and have not pushed the envelope with this cartridge beyond 500 yards.

If we look for truly middle-ground cartridges with relatively sized capacities we find a remarkable little sub-family of cartridges, the 7x57 Mauser [.284", 7.21mm], 6.5x55 Swede [.263", 6.68mm], and 257Roberts [6.52mm, .257]. These cartridges use a case length around 2.23" (the Swede is a little shorter at 2.165"). That case length would allow extra long bullets to be used in standard length actions and magazines, should the desire arise. The only drawback with this sub-set of cartridges is that they are so old that standard factory ammo typically restricts loadings to lower pressures. Otherwise, with modern pressure reaching to 65kPSI, these cartridges would kick some butt. The Mauser and Swede are already famous around the world as non-dangerous game hunting rounds.

None of the above are better than any of the others. They are all choices along sliding scales of diameter, case capacity, and case length, coupled with rifle availability, rifle standards, and bullet availability.

Pretty nice.

Thanks for the clarity in terms even an engineer can understand.
I will stick with my .280 Rem and my new .30-06 with 165 gr TSX bullets!

Ah yes the old 30-06 can do it all..we,ll sooner or later everyone that hunts a good deal arrives at that fact of life..It does just that, perhaps not ideal but Ideal never killed anything except ex presidents, the o6 simply works....

Truth be known, not a spit worth of difference between the 7x57, 308 to the 300 win mag. they kill about the same and not 3"s difference in trajectory as a rule in the real world...They all work..

Might as well throw a comment in here, since I shoot both of them quite a bit.

My 6.5 Creed is a purpose built LR rifle with a heavy barrel put together by Jon Beanland. It shoots great. Very accurate, mild recoil, you can shoot it all day long. The fast twist allows a really great selection of high BC bullets, most of which will get you out to 1350-1400 yards supersonic. I shoot my Creed at that distance pretty regular. If you hold to the theory of 1000 fpe of energy to kill deer size game, then honestly the Creed is gonna run out of gas around 700 yards. I know, lots of folks shoot deer with one past that distance, but just for the sake of having a standard to go by, that is a good point of reference. My Creed has a 22" barrel because I shoot it with a can, and at that barrel length, I can run most 140's about 2725-2750 fps. +/-.

Now, my son has a 270, built by Mike Bryant, and it is set up for LR hunting. That wasn't the plan when I had the rifle built for him though, and the barrel has the standard 1-10" twist typical of the 270. That limits the bullet selection. We used to shoot the 140 NBT, which was pretty decent, but ballistics on that would run out of gas well before my Creed, out at 1000+ yards.

Enter the .277/145 ELD-X. Optimized for the 1-10 twist, this bullet is the real deal in the 270 for LR shooting. This rifle is also shot with a can, and also has a 22" barrel. MV with 58.5 grains of H4831 is right at 2925 fps. Through the mid-range, this bullet beats the Creed fairly easily. It will hold 1000 fpe to a touch over 800 yards, and at 400-500 yards really has quite a bit more energy. Now, even while it has a really good BC for a 10 twist barrel, and is much better than the 140 NBT, it still isn't anywhere near the BC those 6.5 bullets get. By the time you to get to 1000+ yards, there really isn't spits worth of difference between it and the Creed. Both will go subsonic within 30-40 yards of each other. Wind will hit the 270 harder as well.

The Creed is much more pleasant to shoot, especially long strings. And if you are playing out around 1K, it is better in the wind.

But, the 270 has a lot more gas up to 400 yards or so, especially with heavy bullets. If I needed to dig deep in something big, that would be my choice. With the right bullet, of course. The 145 ELD is not the bullet for that.

So, what is the difference? Shooting deer size game out far, not much difference at all. Except you are burning 1/3 more powder and getting that much more recoil with the 270. But if you want to shoot big things at normal distances then the 270 has a distinct energy advantage in my book, loaded appropriately.

Dream on dreamers, I understand you spent your hard earned money on a 6.5 Creedmoor and dread the hard truth but wake up America, the Creedmoor will never top the .270 under any statistics, just in the twisted mind of the American shooters search for supremeacy!

The 6.5 has probably proved itself as a competiton long range paper puncher versus the 308 Win and others now. So you have to give it its due there.

I haven't looked recently but the long range drop ( say 1000 yards) is pretty significantly in favor of the 6.5 versus the 308 so it makes sense in that application. A foot or so could make all the difference.

As it concerns long range accuracy, it may be that the .277 could hang with the 6.5s, but the 270 has rarely been asked to do so. The 270 has spent its 92 years creating a hunting legacy in the fields and woods. There are a number of specialty target long range bullets for the 6.5s and 7mms now, but many of those aren't built or not optimized for .277. So the answer is maybe a maybe if everything was equal in terms of the rifle and accuracy and optics and optimized bullets and loads. But with the market for those bullets in 6.5s and 7s we will probably never know the answer.

I once had a target rifle built. I am a 270 fan and asked him about that. That got a no right away. But he did build it in 284. Even then with the 6mms catching on and the 6.5- 284 up and coming I didn't select it. The 6.5 Creedmore does have some very mild recoil though.

When it gets to hunting, then the 270 has the 6.5 bested. It has both the history and all kinds of performance on its side. Plus the heavier bullet and case capacity options. I don't know the sales numbers but the 6.5 is hot right now and the 6.5 might even outsell the 270, or one day it may in new rifles, but it isn't ever likely to displace the 270 from hunting medium sized game.

I had a conversation with Hill Country Rifles and they are of the opinion that a 6.5 Creedmore can go 10,000 rounds of barrel life. That also could be significant. I didn't ask the finer details of how accurate, and when, and other details of that, but HCR has some data on the 6.5 and they find it quite good.

So the 6.5 is the cool kid on the shelf now.

Just as the 270 was to the 30-06 once before in days past.

The one thing I don't see mentioned here is the difference in bullet frontal area.

The formula of area = pi * r ^ 2 insures that area of a circle increases exponentially with the radius of the circle. Therefore the difference in diameter isn't just 0.013" or 4.9% in size.

A .277" bullet has a frontal section that is 10% larger than a .264" bullet. All things being equal, a larger hole generally equals better for results when hunting, and it is hunting results we are usually discussing here on AccurateReloading.

Middle school math follows:

.264 x .5 = 0.132
.277 x .5 = 0.1385

6.5mm or .264" bore
(0.132 ^ 2) * pi = 0.05474 inches squared

7.0358mm or .277" bore
(0.1385 ^ 2) * pi = 0.06026 inches squared

0.06026 / 0.05474 = 1.1008 or 10.1% larger

To be honest i think they are not too dissimilar.

To me the biggest advantage of the 6.5CM or 260Rem is that they can be made to shoot well in incredibly light and handy rifles.

Have shot game up to feral goats and pigs with both the 260Rem and the 270. Really couldn't see any difference in performance with the right bullets.

But i did like the handiness of my Kimber Montana 260Rem. And will probably buy one in 6.5CM, if I can find one.

quote:

Really couldn't see any difference in performance with the right bullets.

Differences are usually seen as one gets to animal sizes the push the cartridge. A heavy mule deer or elk is where you would expect some statistical patterns. When the cartridge is 'easy' and 'overkill' for the game, then a larger caliber like 338 won't show any difference either.

Many goats are a '223' sized animal. there is probably some difference still visible with a 243, but as you get to the Bob, 6.5, and 270 you are into overkill.

Obviously anything is better then the 270Win.

Its an abomination pushed by big money and advertisement, when honestly anything the Europeans produced where superior.


Hmm.. just like the 6.5CM is. A poor copy of the 6.5x47 Lapua.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is the do-it all round of the 21st century, basically replacing the 308 in that role.

* It has better ballistics than the 308
* Less recoil than the 308 / very easy to shoot (even in ultra-light rifles)
* Great high BC bullet choices
* Will fit all actions and magazines that fit 308
* Fantastic, very long barrel life
* Performs great out of short & long barrels
* Feeds fantastic out of semi-auto rifles (better than 308)
* It extremely easy to load precision ammo for
* Lots of choices in top-quality factory ammo
* Great cartridge for a dual-purpose target/hunting rifle.

The 6.5CM is not the "best" at anything, but it does almost everything very well in this caliber range.

As a "pure" hunting cartridge in this caliber range, I would take the 6.5x284 over all of them.

I find the discussion interesting. Being a big Bore guy my friends laught when I say that I find everything below 40 cal boring but useful. I tend to be more of a Elmer Keith fan than Mr 270 Jack fan. I have shot the 270 and it is a great round but In my opinion just like the 6.5, 7MM and 30 cal stuff better when shooting little guns. No scientific comparison, no crunching BC and velocity. Nothing more than just like the pothers better. If you know the distance and drop of the round and the shooter does his or her's part a 150gr .270 and a 700gr 50/90 slug will both ring steel at 500+. But no matter which you like shoot opten, shoot straight and enjoy the day.