I saw a line in a previous thread from Dogleg:
"I like a high shoulder shot myself."

Hmmmmmm.
I have suspected that near that sloping spine under and below the shoulder blade are areas that let an animal go a long way.

So here is the poll:

Question:
What is your favorite point of aim on animals 100-500 lbs?

Choices:
High shoulder
Neck-spine from any distance out to 300 yards
Neck-spine under 175 yards
top of heart
shoulder bone front of heart
general lung area, including back of heart

Question:
what is your favorite point of aim on animals 500-2000 pounds?

Choices:
High shoulder
Neck-spine from any distance out to 300 yards
Neck-spine under 175 yards
top of heart
shoulder bone from front of heart
general lung area, including back of heart

 

So on reflection, I have often suspected that there are spots along high lung shots that let animals run a long way or disappear. thirty-five years ago I had a couple of lost animals that I suspect were shot too high, maybe underside of spine over the lungs. I've never done enough physiology to verify this, but I became a heart person and generally want my bullets landing about 1/3 of the way up between the leg-line and the hump at the top of the back. I am happy even lower, 1/5 to 1/4 up that line, still right into the heart. My understanding is that with most animals there is a shoulder-leg bone from the top of the leg at the body that connects forward, away from the heart. It eventually hooks up to a nexus near the junction of the neck and drooping spine. So when someone says "high shoulder" I assume that they mean the shoulder blade that covers the drooping spine or what?

If we had a campfire and cold beer this could be a useful discussion.

Every animal that I've used the high shoulder shot on has dropped immediately to the shot. On a stationary, broadside shot, it's my favorite. But for larger and dangerous game, I use the shoulder at top front of the heart. The margin of error is greater, and even though they may run a ways, it won't be far.

First, I had no choice in the poll, because I favor and go for a "Dead Center" shoulder shot, to break the animal down.

A wounded animal can drag its ass a long ways, but with the front legs/shoulders out of commission, they can not push themselves very far!

Second, as for this comment,

quote:

So on reflection, I have often suspected that there are spots along high lung shots that let animals run a long way or disappear. thirty-five years ago I had a couple of lost animals that I suspect were shot too high, maybe underside of spine over the lungs.

, due to their anatomy, deer/elk/moose, etc. etc., there actually is a gap between the spine and the top of the lungs where an arrow or bullet can slip thru and the animal survive.

Can we please agree on what a "shoulder" is?

The joint at the brisket level is what I call the "elbow".

The fold next to it is often referred to as the "armpit". That is often the typical top of heart shot.

The bone from the "elbow" up is often a good shot. In some cases it is possible to break both these leg bones AND take out the heart.

The flat spatula shaped bone above this is what I call the "shoulder blade".

If you shoot through this flat bone (as long as you do not go too high) you should get both lungs and sometimes you will get the spine between the shoulder blades as it curves down.

I have seen a lot of confusion where some people refer to the lower bone from the elbow up & next to the heart line as the "shoulder".

The shoulder knuckle is where the shoulder blade and the elbow bone meet. A true broadside shot on the shoulder knuckle may drop an animal and get the front of the lungs. A quartering front on shot on the knuckle is a good shot but you damage a lot of meat.

Is it possible to put pictures into a poll? I think that would clarify things so that there isn't any confusion on what the 'shoulder' really is.

I think it would be a great idea to have a separate Forum of shot placement picture for different animals & angle. I hope Saeed would support that and make it happen.

Shakari Robinson's book on the perfect shot is very good.

quote:

Can we please agree on what a "shoulder" is?

The joint at the brisket level is what I call the "elbow".

The fold next to it is often referred to as the "armpit". That is often the typical top of heart shot.

The bone from the "elbow" up is often a good shot. In some cases it is possible to break both these leg bones AND take out the heart.

The flat spatula shaped bone above this is what I call the "shoulder blade".

Maybe, if a person has not shot at enough game to ACTUALLY KNOW what the shoulder on an animal looks like, then they need to do a little more hunting!

An animal with a high lung shot can go a long ways. And go a long ways without a blood trail as the blood is puddling inside of the lungs and chest cavity.

May be some people need to learn to read English and understand communication better.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Can we please agree on what a "shoulder" is?

The joint at the brisket level is what I call the "elbow".

The fold next to it is often referred to as the "armpit". That is often the typical top of heart shot.

The bone from the "elbow" up is often a good shot. In some cases it is possible to break both these leg bones AND take out the heart.

The flat spatula shaped bone above this is what I call the "shoulder blade".

Maybe, if a person has not shot at enough game to ACTUALLY KNOW what the shoulder on an animal looks like, then they need to do a little more hunting!

I have always understood that North American deer have a higher spine than those in Africa. i.e. on African antelope the spine dips lower.
We in Africa would seldom aim for the spine and rather err on the lower side of the chest cavity.
Therefore the poll could have been divided between the two sets of antelope/ deer.
Perhaps someone with experience of both continents can elaborate.

I just imagine that the animal has a basketball placed between his shoulders and my goal is to place a bullet through it. I'd use enough bullet to do the job which means for the first category 7-08 is about right and the larger category a 338 Win Mag.

Aim for the center of the chest.

From any angle.

For any size animal.

Works like a charm.

If an animal is close, a brain or neck shot is my preferred placement.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Aim for the center of the chest.

From any angle.

For any size animal.

Works like a charm.

If an animal is close, a brain or neck shot is my preferred placement.

This

quote:

I had a couple of lost animals that I suspect were shot too high, maybe underside of spine over the lungs.

As with and lost animal one can never be sure what happened.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I had a couple of lost animals that I suspect were shot too high, maybe underside of spine over the lungs.

As with and lost animal one can never be sure what happened.

Exactly.
The lost animals were shot with an accurate 270, which certainly worked well most of the time.

I once shot a six point buck at about 75 yards using a high shoulder shot with a 135 grain Hornady spire point in my Winchester Model 100 .308. To my amazement, he reared up on his hind legs and took off across the clearing he was grazing in. He made it to the edge of the clearing, about 75 yards away, and I found him about 25 yards deep in the woods.

Both shoulders had been broken and his forelegs were dangling. I have never experienced anything like that either before or afterwards.

Not derailing the Poll, but, and this is simply out of curiosity.

How many hunters after taking the initial shot, prepare themselves for a follow up shot, if the animal does not go down with the first shot?

I am not talking about the deadly AR "Double Tap" but getting a new round into the chamber, keeping the rifle aimed at the critter and being mentally/physically prepared for a follow up shot?

I always remain prepared for a second or other additional shots. Squirrels are one of the few that cause me to stop to see how well my shot performed.

I wish that people would define "shoulder shot" more clearly.

My general impression is that it is on the front high side of the heart.
Six-eight inches from there at "8 o'clock" can result in a clean miss or non-fatal brisket hit. While six-eight inches from there at 4 o'clock will result in a lower lung back of heart fatal shot.

Of course, six inches from there at 9 o'clock should catch the neck spine aorta complex and drop the deer on the spot.

Where I have trouble following descriptions is when people talk about a "high shoulder" shot.

That was my point earlier and a troll idiot decided he was an expert ......

The shoulder blade is way high. There are 2 major bones on the front leg from brisket up.

Which is the shoulder bone? The upper one is the shoulder blade and IMHO is the shoulder bone.

https://www.google.co.nz/searc...b..2.0.0.dWbZ9fkUEqU

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I wish that people would define "shoulder shot" more clearly.

My general impression is that it is on the front high side of the heart.
Six-eight inches from there at "8 o'clock" can result in a clean miss or non-fatal brisket hit. While six-eight inches from there at 4 o'clock will result in a lower lung back of heart fatal shot.

Of course, six inches from there at 9 o'clock should catch the neck spine aorta complex and drop the deer on the spot.

Where I have trouble following descriptions is when people talk about a "high shoulder" shot.

With the many animals that I have shot I have always relied on a heart lung shot. Many times I have looked through the scope and pondered a high shoulder shot thinking this is a good time to try one, but my lack of confidence from never taking that shot keeps me gong back to the a heart lung shot.

quote:

How many hunters after taking the initial shot, prepare themselves for a follow up shot, if the animal does not go down with the first shot?

When I was younger and full of my self I brought into the pride of one shot one kill.

I hunted with a Ruger No.1 and made many one shot kills and still do. Then the biggest buck of my life walked in front of me.

I took aim pulled the trigger and said dead deer he ran about 50 yards stopped. I said that a big buck and put a 2nd one into his shoulder.

Dropped him right there when I looked for the first shot I found a grove cut through the hair on top of his shoulder.

Now if they keep moving I keep shooting one shot two or more what ever it takes to keep them on the ground.

I was laughed at for shooting a mule deer buck 4 times with my 338wm. That was heading for a property that I couldn't retrieve him from. He died 50 feet from the fence on my side.

Later that week the guy who was giving me the hardest time shot one then lost it after he trailed it and it crossed the property line.

When I asked him he said he had time to shoot it more then once. But said to himself dead deer.

As some one else says the famous last words of a trophy fee gone bad is don't shoot him again he was hit hard the first time.

If one aims for the center of the sholder, meaning center mass, there is a lot of room for error, and that ain't a bad idea btw..but it depends on the animal your hunting..I like to shoot buffalo at the junction of the neck and shoulder on a broadside shot. I like to shoot deer and elk 1/3 up the shoulder or behind the shoulder, and most of all it depends on the angle and circumstances of the shot and everyone that hunts should know that..Knowing an animals anatomy is first and foremost, and aim for the exit hole. There are a million pictures in print showing the best shot from about any angle, some are correct and some are not.

I have had good luck but taking shots on moose as explained here:
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/ind...fm?adfg=hunting.shot

"""Where should the crosshairs be located for a double lung shot?
On a broadside shot, place the horizontal crosshairs about 1/3 of the distance from the bottom of the chest to the top of the back. Place the vertical crosshair directly behind the near side front leg.

On the quartering away shot place the vertical crosshair on the opposite side front leg and the horizontal crosshair one-third of the way up from the bottom of the chest."""

This is what Ray Alaska is talking about and allows the largest margin for error. Y'all can keep your trick shots at small ever-moving targets.

Zeke

Up close 50 yards and in I shot everything in the neck. Past that I shot for the heart. Past 200 I am going for lungs. Sometimes, you have to take the shot you got and these are not hard rules; just what normally what happens.

I have read the perfect shot and looked at anatomical drawings all my life before anyone ever thought of a perfect shot book, I never understood (unless it is from energy) why people sau that with a heart shot the shoulder was broken. Unless the leg is pulled back the heart is not covered by the shoulder.

Please, if you disagree with me on this, I want to be educated.

I did spine a buck through the shoulder blade once with fiber optic irons; very effective. Most folks say to stay away from shoulder blade shots, so I have never really took after it. I have read there is a lot of room to miss the spine or not get any lungs.

My experience is on elk and deer.

quote:

I have read the perfect shot and looked at anatomical drawings all my life before anyone ever thought of a perfect shot book, I never understood (unless it is from energy) why people sau that with a heart shot the shoulder was broken. Unless the leg is pulled back the heart is not covered by the shoulder.

The concept too many hunters do not take into consideration when taking a shot or considering a shot, even at reasonably close ranges, is that the sight picture, whether with scope or open sights is that the animal is not always standing just exactly as it appears to be.

What appears to be a "Perfect" broadside shot, in reality is a shot where the animal's body is quartering to or away from the shooter by a few inches, basically not a precise 90 degree angle from the guns muzzle which will cause the bullet to angle forward or rearward in the chest cavity.

Add to the equation the effect of whether the animal was alert or calm.

I gave my first elk a cervical concussion, placing the bullet just over the spinal cord just behind the shoulder where the spinal column dips low. Bang-flop, then got up slowly acting wobbly-drunk. Had no idea what I'd just done, animal started to scram. Followup from a hard quartering away angle worked (thank you John Nosler!).

That was the last time I considered placement anywhere but at junction of bottom and middle thirds. That was also the last time I zeroed a rifle more than 2" high at 100 yds.

From time to time review of animal's anatomy is prudent. We have no excuse; the internet is full of good pics.

quote:

I just imagine that the animal has a basketball placed between his shoulders and my goal is to place a bullet through it. I'd use enough bullet to do the job which means for the first category 7-08 is about right and the larger category a 338 Win Mag.

That is exactly the image I taught my kids to use when shooting their first deer. Seemed to work, both DRT, ONE SHOT.

quote:

Shakari Robinson's book on the perfect shot is very good.

IIRC doesn't he call the high shoulder shot the "shoulder/spine" or just "spine" (not at home now I'll check later).......and it's on nearly all the animals listed. (Although not in books, anatomically there's an abundance of larger nerves around the base of the neck and shoulder area- increasing the likelihood of CNS shock.)

quote:

Hmmmmmm.
I have suspected that near that sloping spine under and below the shoulder blade are areas that let an animal go a long way.

Well. You've missed.

If so, then is your Poll about the greatest likelihood of not losing an animal irrespective of accuracy? Then Saeed's center of the chest is the best.

If you're hunting meat then you can head/neck or mid/lower lung (I used to head/neck spikes til it dawned upon me I don't eat rib meat and give it to my dogs, so I shoot all deer in the ribs). If meat is not an issue, I'll err a little more forward.

I prefer the upper third of the animal to "try" to get some spinal cord shock whether broadside or facing me. On a broadside just behind the shoulder crease/upper third, moving more forward as the animal gets bigger to increase the likelihood of diminished locomotion.

Some years ago I shot a Fallow buck across a gully - my guess is minimum 300 meters - based on the point of aim - top one third and hit at least 6 inches low with 2 inch zero at 100 meters.

The bullet was 150 gr TSX from a Kimber Montana 7mm08.

The bullet broke both front legs AND took out the top of the heart. I have thought about that many tomes and my conclusion is that the animal was quartering a little towards me and the leg on the other side (uphill) would have been further back.

The animal did not drop to the shot, tried to run but stumbled a lot due to both legs being broken and finally collapsed.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I have read the perfect shot and looked at anatomical drawings all my life before anyone ever thought of a perfect shot book, I never understood (unless it is from energy) why people sau that with a heart shot the shoulder was broken. Unless the leg is pulled back the heart is not covered by the shoulder.

The concept too many hunters do not take into consideration when taking a shot or considering a shot, even at reasonably close ranges, is that the sight picture, whether with scope or open sights is that the animal is not always standing just exactly as it appears to be.

What appears to be a "Perfect" broadside shot, in reality is a shot where the animal's body is quartering to or away from the shooter by a few inches, basically not a precise 90 degree angle from the guns muzzle which will cause the bullet to angle forward or rearward in the chest cavity.

Add to the equation the effect of whether the animal was alert or calm.

Gentlemen: that mak s a lot of sense. Thank you.

Another thought is the size of the heart area and the implications of point of aim

The average deer heart & top arteries is about 4 inches if the exclude the bottom tip are.

If a rifle is zeroed 2" high at 100 meters, the heart is still at point of aim at 200 to 250 meters for most deer rifles doing 2700 fps or more.

So it is not an issue to aim long shots (300 to 400 meters) at the top third (below the back line) and have the bullet drop into heart lung region for a clean kill.

It's hard to run with a non-functioning front leg, so I aim for the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by Colin Masters:
It's hard to run with a non-functioning front leg, so I aim for the shoulder.

Wrong a 3 legged critter can run very fast and far.

We had a 3 legged dog left front missing kept up with the other dogs.

I shot buck running full speed through the woods that at one time must have been hit by a vehicle his would right shoulder muscles were useless hard as a rock, his right leg was useless and his neck was permanently bent at an angle from it.

Yet he was running through thick woods at full speed.

There is a you tube video out there of a two legged dog doing amazing things.

Even with both shoulders smashed a animal can push themselves a ways.

Again if they are moving keep shooting a little meat loss to a bullet is better then losing the whole animal trophy fee ect.

My motto is, a critter can drag its ass a long way but has a hard time pushing its head and neck very far.

My intention when shooting at the shoulder is more to try and take the front legs, both of them out of commission.

If enough damage to the heart or lungs is done to kill the animal on the spot, so much the better, but getting them off their feet is my first goal.

I tried to read every word on this thread so if I am repeating someone else I apologize.

I am a huge fan of the shoulder shot.I hate butchering the fronts of deer, so many little muscle groups that by the time you spent an hour whittling one ends up with a handful of trim. I consider myself a patient person but I have little patience for front shoulders. I try to destroy BOTH shoulders. Deer down right there as a bonus.

My thoughts on the shoulder shot, high, middle or low, it is deadly.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
First, I had no choice in the poll, because I favor and go for a "Dead Center" shoulder shot, to break the animal down.

The different shoulder shot descriptions threw me a bit as well.

I want to destroy the shoulder and put the animal down.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Colin Masters:
It's hard to run with a non-functioning front leg, so I aim for the shoulder.

Wrong a 3 legged critter can run very fast and far.

Three legged critters learned to run with three legs. They didn't just get up a run away from the initial injury that took the leg/shoulder.