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One of Us |
A conversation on the Big Bore Forum sparked another rant from me. I have been bitching about the plethora of new cartridge designs which launch the same ole bullet weights at the same ole velocities. Nothing is new other than a different case design and another marketing opportunity to sell more guns. In my opinion, the ammo companies need to branch out and generate some truly useful new cartridge designs. For instance - How about a high performance .35 caliber? Great for long range elk, bear, moose, big plains game, etc. I realize that Rigby designed the .350 Rigby Magnum and there is the .358 Shooting Times Alaskan, but how about a new, higher performance .35 caliber? Build it off the .404 Jeffery case - Dakota style. Neck it to .358 and achieve 2900 - 3100 fps with a 250gr bullet. (Woodleigh, Nosler, Speer, etc already manufacture bullets in this weight.) This configuration gives you more energy than the .330 Dakota, .340 Weatherby, and .338 Ultra AND higher velocity than the .375H&H shooting 270gr bullets. Let�s consider the ballistics for a moment - 3000fps, 250gr bullet, BC of .446 and a 200 yard zero nets the following: Muzzle energy......... 4995 ft-lbs 100 yards....+1.5".....4298 ft-lbs 200 yards......0.0".....3683 ft-lbs 300 yards....-6.8"......3142 ft-lbs 400 yards....-19.7"....2667 ft-lbs 500 yards....-39.8"....2248 ft-lbs Recoil with a 10 lb rifle will be 43-45 ft-lbs. Stout, but manageable. About like full house loads with a 300gr bullet from a .375 H&H. I guess the point is, IF the gun manufacturers could somehow be motivated to use their creativity and R&D budget, they could generate truly useful, new designs. I think it is a waste to continue to repackage something we have been using for the past 30 - 95 years. The last thing we need is another .25, .30, .375 .416, etc caliber cartridge which mirrors existing performance. Let�s create something NEW for a change. Any takers on a really cool .358?  | ||
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| one of us |
is this anything like a 358 norma mag? [ 01-16-2003, 04:22: Message edited by: Curtis_Lemay ] | |||
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Moderator |
I talked to John Ricks about doing one, and he has built a 35 Ultramag. I don't recall exactly his wording, but the gist is, recoil is nasty! I don't care if it calculates the same as a 375 H&H, it will have a fast nasty jab. After working up loads in the 350 Rigby, pushing 250's a sedate 2700 fps, I know that I don't want a 35 that burns more then 70 gr of powder, and much prefer 66 gr charges. If you are burning 80 grs of powder, expect a nasty wallop! I'm a huge fan of the 35 bores, but they are dead commercially. The number crunchers will hold fast that the 338 can do everything better then the 35's, and the gimme more wallop folks will toute the benefits of the 375. The 35's are just dead commercially. But with the 270 gr northfork, 280 gr a-frame, and 310 gr woodleigh, a large cased 35 can produce some serious wallop! | |||
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unfortunately we are a minority. they build what sells the most. we build what we want. it's a cruel world but frankly i wouldn't want a "new" gun from rem or win. i would just as soon take an old beater and make what i want without the locks and such. just my .02. i would like to see a 358 250@3000 fps in something factory. at least it wouldn't be a "30". woofer | |||
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| one of us |
I get it. Something really new. Not just something different. Something like the .35 Newton for instance! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| One of Us |
I was leaning more towards a .360 Imperial Magnum or an Ultra. You could go with a little less case capacity like the .358-404 Schofield but with an improved shoulder. But the .360 IM or Ultra could be great fun to put together. I think I may make a plan as soon as my current project is complete. Now for brass, and a reamer... Paul H - Do you have any ideas about loads and performance from John Ricks? In any event, it would be refreshing to see something truly new in the gun industry from time to time. Just anything new.... [ 01-16-2003, 05:56: Message edited by: Zero Drift ] | |||
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One of Us |
Would a 35 of that capability be legal for the same things as the 375 H&H in Africa? Legal or not, it should give the 375 a run for its money at showtime. | |||
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| one of us |
I have 2 serious 35's. 35/404imp and a 35/375 imp (same as STA). The 404 version delivers slightly higher vel. Both weigh less than 8lb. and recoil will get your attention. I tried some North Fork bullets a few days ago and I don't know if it was immagined or real but the recoil seemed less from these 270gr. than from the A Squares that I have been using. Recoil is much sharper than any 375 I've shot except the 378Weatherby. I am currently working on an Enfield action that will be a 35/416Rigby but this one will have a maple wood stock and weigh over 10lb.Mark | |||
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| One of Us |
Mark - What is your case OAL on the .35-404? What powder, charge weights, and velocities are you seeing with a 250gr bullet? Ya know, this is a cartridge that is perfectly suited for Hodgdon Retumbo. [ 01-16-2003, 08:12: Message edited by: Zero Drift ] | |||
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one of us |
I shoot and load for a .35 Griffin & Howe Imp. It's on a magnum mauser action in a Holland & Holland presentation grade stock. It has a quarter rib with one standing blade. 1 3/4 x 5 leupold in Warne quick detachable rings. All up it weights 8.25 lbs. I load 87 gr of RL22 with 280 swifts and 89 with 250 noslers. Recoil is not severe but stout. It's an excellent elk rifle and there isn't anything on the north american continent i can't hunt with it. I too would like to see a factory "big .35" | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:No, not legal for Africa, though with 280 gr a-frames or 310 gr woodleighs it is certainly as capable as the 375. I know many guides who say in the field the 35 whelen's effect on game is noteably better then the 338 win mag, and almost indistinguishable from the 375 H&H. Needless to say, a hot 35 would be even better | |||
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| one of us |
For those that have a 358 STA or equivalent, do you full length resize or just neck size? I'm a newbie when it comes to this and am uncertain when neck sizing applies. BTW I building a 358STA on a Rem 700 ADL (Woofer-this is what the scope was for). It should be shootable in a few weeks (with factory stock) and completely finished in a few months (waiting on the laminate stock). | |||
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35 Rock Express. A maximully improved, full length 404 case, pushing a 250 gr bullet at 3200 fps, I'm told. My 'smith buddy touts this as an amazing killer, so I'm putting one together. If it works as advertised, it should do the job. - Dan | |||
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| One of Us |
Dan - Do you have case specs? It must be in the same ballpark as the .35 IM and .35 Ultra. | |||
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scott you dog. if i had known it was for an sta i woulda' given it to ya'![mmmmm nope]. 8lbs. 250 grain @3000 plus fps. bout like getting hit by a truck in a school zone. you see it all the way yet you just stand there and take it. for all of us that dont shoot ultras and 404 fullsize what kind of footlbs are we talking in recoil? woofer | |||
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| <Zeke> |
Someone necked down a 378 Weatherby to 35 caliber. Here are his numbers: http://www.realguns.com/loads/358378.htm ZM | ||
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Woofer, here's what was posted elsewhere: 300 win. 180/72 gr. @ 3100........= 30 ft. lb. 14 fps. 338 RUM 250/88 gr. @ 2950........= 47............18 358 STA 250/88 gr. @ 2950........= 47............18 375 H&H 270/72 gr. 2 2700........= 40............17 How's that for wallop! | |||
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i see a slight increase in flinching compared to my 350 mag. more like seizures. i'll stick to my pop gun............. thanks woofer | |||
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zeke. i just went to that sight. that is one sick puppy. i want one in ultralight................. woofer | |||
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Check the American Rifleman for the last couple years -- Bryce Towsley got a wildcat made up based on a Remington Ultra Mag case, .338 necked up or .375 necked down, I can't remember. He shot a kudu with it IIRC. John | |||
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| <RussT> |
Mr. Fred Wells necked the 378 down to 358 years ago, it's called the 350 Wells express and Huntington usally has the dies in stock. | ||
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| <JOHAN> |
quote:John Don't get to depressed about this hard facts. Prozac anyone? I will try to respect the elders a bit more, but thanks for you insight about the 35's What is wrong about number crunshing My physics theacher were right, you can't fool mother nature much. It's all about the numbers game Cheers / JOHAN [ 01-19-2003, 17:06: Message edited by: JOHAN ] | ||
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| <phurley> |
ScottinPa -- I bought my original brass from Superior Ammo in South Dakota. I could get 91 grains of powder in the case. After firing the case one time I could then get 93.5 grains of powder using a 225 grain bullets. One of my rifles is a Custom with a Lilja barrel. It has closer tolerances than the other rifle, a Winchester from their custom shop. The new brass worked fine if I wanted to shoot the 225 grain bullets, but to shoot the larger bullets, I fireform with 225 grain Sierra boattail bullets, then resize that case with a "full length" die. I found if I fired the brass through the Winchester barrel first, then resized, I couldn't always chamber in the Lifja barrel after resizing. I would say I could only about 50% of the time. Now, I fire everything through the Lilja barrel first, and have no problems chambering the resized brass on both. The Winchester barrel is still super accurate, as is the Lilja barrel. By the way, that Sierra 225 grain bullet is very accurate, only the North Forks beating it. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} Good luck on your STA project, and good shooting.[ 01-19-2003, 18:05: Message edited by: phurley ] | ||
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| <toto> |
I'm wondering how much deader an animal would be with that big gun than say a smaller caliber. Hopefully no one would be shooting 500 yrds. at anything more than deer size animals. Just thinking of all the recoil just to kill a deer. I guess if it works for you go for it. fw | ||
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Phurley, I decided to build the STA largely from reading your past posts. I bought a few boxes of loaded ammo from Quality Cartridge. There are a few things I'm not sold on about this ammo, but the jury is still out. I will not "bad-mouth" them until I have a definite problem. I'll look into brass from Superior ammo also. Thanks. | |||
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| <phurley> |
ScottinPa -- I have an excellent article published by Layne Simpson, that deals with the .358 STA that he had the idea for and Kenny Jarrett built for him. Someone sent it to me early on and it gives the history, and many loads as well as case forming options. You may already have this article, if you don't, I will be glad to send a copy to you. It was invaluable to me when I started with the STA. An E-Mail with your address would be needed. Good shooting. | ||
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Phurley, I have both articles from Layne Simpson plus some info from A-square(I think). Appreciate the offer, though. | |||
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Phurley A little insight into the chamber on your Winchester 358 STA . As you know A-Square speced this cartridge with SAMMI . Winchester had the chamber reamer made to this spec . however A- Square loaded Ammunitiom would not chamber in a rifle thus chambered . In deference to some one who bought a-Squara ammunition Winchester chambers are a little larger than normal spec . | |||
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zero drift. Sorry for delay in answer.COLis 3.65 with the 275 A Square. I have got near 3000fs with the 275gr. using RL25. and 3200 from sierra 225. Pressures are high, so the load for hunting drives 275's at 2925.I have a 28" cr/molly barrel. I don't have a mic. here but the taper would appear to be only15 thou. or so. I neck size only and brass life seems ok. My first 35/404 was a ruger #1 and the recoil was harsh. If you wish I can email you some loads I have tried in both rifles.Mark | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:Not a problem, for those cases that the 350 Rigby isn't sufficient, and that sissy 9.3 isn't up to the task, I have a 500 Jeffrey | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
quote:Ahhh, soo shoot one of thoose half inch guns that lacks the Sd that 500 or 600 grain bullets in 458 caliber has I thought you were a 450 rigby rimless shooter, or maybe a 458 lott I guess the standard weight for 500 Jeffery is 525-570 grains? It seems like there should be another buffalo raffle, with a 9,3X62 or 64 as the prefered gun / JOHAN [ 01-20-2003, 22:23: Message edited by: JOHAN ] | ||
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| Moderator |
quote:Actually I'm also waiting for a replacent 458 lott as well. As far as the sd thing, it is a meaningless number, bullet construction is much more important. That and, after the bullet exits, the only way to get a bigger wound channel is to increase bullet dia and or velocity. I plan on loading 570 gr X bullets at 2200-2400 fps out of the Jeffrey, somehow I think it will be sufficient for our moose and bears | |||
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| One of Us |
Paul - 570gr @ 2400fps???? I hope your rifle comes equipped with wheels. I have dropped the hammer on a few 500gr, 2400fps loads from my .450 Dakota. Not much fun. | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:The finished weight of the rifle should be ~11#'s. My previous 458 lott weighed 9#'s, and I was shooting 500's @ 2280 fps, I figure the 2 extra pounds ought to make the Jeffrey shootable. That or I'll just back down to 2200 fps loads. Gotta love a round that uses 100 grs of powder for it's starting loads | |||
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| One of Us |
Paul - It will definitely get everyone's attention. This does bring up an excellent point about case capacity and the load flexibility you have with larger �overbore� cases. | |||
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| <gattman> |
Zero, It is not the case capacity that you are looking for, but I am currently building a 358 using a necked down 9.3x64 brenneke. Should be good enough for anything on North American continent. No belt, standard length action, minimum case forming. Brass can be a problem but not impossible to get. I have custom reamer but do not yet have dies. Rifle will not be ready for a few more months. Currently necking cases using 9mm Super pistol dies. | ||
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| One of Us |
gattman - Welcome to the forum. Sounds like an interesting project. Keep us posted on your load development and velocities. What weight bullet are you considering? | |||
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| <gattman> |
Zero, I am planning on working with 200 to 250 gr bullets. If you are interested in something in 358 that might equal a 338 Lapua check out Lutz Moller's site. He has necked a 9.3x64 down to 338 and blown the case out. I wanted to minimize case stretching and simplify forming so I went 358 with no other case dimension changes. His email is l.moller@snafu.de | ||
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Gattman; Your project sounds promising. I am a Whelen fan but feel that a bit more energy is needed when it comes to the big fluffy things up here in AK. What factory rifles are out there that you think might be worth converting to your wildcat? Thansk, Dave | |||
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