I took my first gander at the thread "1MOA rifle no longer acceptable" (Article by Boddington).

Couldn't help but chuckle.

Don't know whether I'm a contrarian or if its the cheap wine I'm drinkin'.

A couple of my thoughts and then I'll inquire of your thoughts.

Although I go to the range almost weekly and shoot, chrono my loads. and do load development, I consider myself a hunter, first and foremost, not a paper puncher or benchrester.

The pix I'm posting is a one hole group.


It's one hole, cause I only shot one time.

First shot out of a cold barrel.

1" diameter target dot.

100 yds.



Now would you say this was a MOA gun?

What the heck does it matter if it shoots where you aim?

How many times do you shoot more than once?

If you could do this everytime you shot, would you give a flyin' f@#$k if it was a MOA gun?

BTW
this was an old Winchester push feed model 70.
Paid $350 for it cause it had a crack in the stock at the wrist.



Course it didn't hurt that it had been glass bedded, trigger tweaked, and had a heavy 26" Shilen Barrel.

Best to you and yours in the coming season
GWB

I have a 25-06 that will put em all in the same hole and have got up to 9 before I failed.

I am a meat hunter too and reload for the fun of it. My expectations vary depending upon the rifle or time of day, etc... but to me one shot on target doesn't really say anything. You need a minimum of 3 to prove it. Example: I bore sighted a new rifle and fired the first round which hit the bullseye low center. What a coincidence right, The next shot was 3" lower and 4" right. It took 3 shots to properly foul the barrel before I could dial in a predictable 3 shot group. Now I already now that a freshly cleaned and lubed barrel will throw a flyer so I was expecting a lower strike from the second round but the lateral shift was a surprise.

I do however understand your point and have a rifles that I trust will hit what I am aiming for with out having to continue to prove it.

often I will show up to the range with my old m70 and the first round will be directly above the target a couple inches. right where I want it.
one of the older guys at the range kept telling me "throw the first round in the dirt, it will ruin your group" but that 60 cents worth of bullet/powder is actually critical information to me. I'll show up every weekend if possible and make note of the gun being cleaned or fouled before that first shot. generally they shoot different (higher when clean)

the nerd side of me reminds me 1 is no statistic, and you must repeat to have significance. I've seen good 3 shot groups later repeated and not be consistent. but in the end a deer isn't a 1 inch sticker.

I wish I could have got my m70 for 350...

How accurate a gun you need depends on how far you are going to shoot, and how big "an area" you need to hit.

I do agree that the first shot is the most important, but some times the "problem" might require more than one shot.

Geedubya, that's darn fine shooting. Those push feed Winchesters are good shooters.......and no one seems to want them.....(except me)

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
I took my first gander at the thread "1MOA rifle no longer acceptable" (Article by Boddington).

Couldn't help but chuckle.

Don't know whether I'm a contrarian or if its the cheap wine I'm drinkin'.

A couple of my thoughts and then I'll inquire of your thoughts.

Although I go to the range almost weekly and shoot, chrono my loads. and do load development, I consider myself a hunter, first and foremost, not a paper puncher or benchrester.

What the heck does it matter if it shoots where you aim?

How many times do you shoot more than once?

Best to you and yours in the coming season
GWB

Amen, it's only the first shot from a cold barrel that counts anyway.

That one shot out of a cold barrel is, indeed, of tremendous importance. From a hunting standpoint, it doesn't matter what it does after that. That's why, when I go to the range, I'm always trying to make as good a shot as possible with the first one. I want to have confidence that such will occur the way I want it to when a trophy deer walks out.

I believe if one is confident that his rifle will make that shot, he will be more consistent in making those shots in real hunting situations. If you have a gun that you know won't shoot better than a 4" group, I believe one's confidence level may wane and thus he is more apt to make a poor shot.

How well does your gun need to shoot for you to have the confidence you need to make the shot? Only you can answer that question.

quote:

Originally posted by sagi:
often I will show up to the range with my old m70 and the first round will be directly above the target a couple inches. right where I want it.
one of the older guys at the range kept telling me "throw the first round in the dirt, it will ruin your group" but that 60 cents worth of bullet/powder is actually critical information to me. I'll show up every weekend if possible and make note of the gun being cleaned or fouled before that first shot. generally they shoot different (higher when clean)

The first shot is the most important and most guys don't know how their gun shoots on the first or subsequents shots so you have one up on most shooters.

At least regarding the many different cartridges I shoot, at least 50% don't seem to care whether the barrel is clean or dirty and most shoot to the same place on multiple shots. If you clean and leave any oil in the bore, the first 2 or 3 shots from a rifle will always be high. If your last barrel coating is Prolix followed by a dry patch the first shots won't be high.

As for how accurate a gun needs to be, it's all true that the first shot is the most important and that you don't need a 1 MOA gun for a deer at 50 yards. On the other hand I think it best not to accept mediocre results from yourself or your rifle.

quote:

Amen, it's only the first shot from a cold barrel that counts anyway.

quote:

That one shot out of a cold barrel is, indeed, of tremendous importance. From a hunting standpoint, it doesn't matter what it does after that

Ive found follow up shots on game to be just as important as the first. By that time ive most likely got an animal thats now on the move, having a rifle that remains accurate gives one less variable to deal with.

I did that probably about 45 years ago when in college.

I went out to the local parish range, set up and fired one shot. The range provided targets, 50 yard pistol targets for everything.
We had a papermill nearby and I guess they made those or gave the sheriffs dept a good deal on them.

First and only shot of the day, 100 yards perfectly centered the x in the x ring.

I took one look, waited untill all clear, pulled my target, laid it down, packed up my rifle( a Win Mod 70, featherweight 30-06) and prepared to go home while everyone else was looking at it.

Many folks have multiple reasons as to why they or their rifles can't shoot. Some by swearing that one shot is all they need and others by shooting only 3 shot groups.

Assuming that you start with a cold, fouled barrel, if your follow shot isn't damn close to the first shot, either your rifle needs some work or you need to practice more.

i'd go do it again.
and maybe once or twice more.
cold bbl one shot.
my push feed will do the first two right together.
then it drops 3/8ths an inch and left 3/8ths an inch for the next three.
thats at 100 yds.

Ok,
here is a second shot, fired about 30 seconds or so after the first. Different target spot.



Now was it me, the rifle, or the round that made the difference?
Quien Sabe as the Mexicans say!

More than likely, a dead animal though!

By the way, this load in this rifle will do MOA, as I have done so many times with it over the last 10 years or so.

I guess the idea of telling folks that a factory rifle that will shoot MOA,isn't good enough, when most triggers break at over 3 lbs and you are shooting factory ammo bought at the "Marts" and you could be shooting free hand or off sticks at an animal that may have an 8" or better kill zone seems ludicrous.

Just my $.02.

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Many folks have multiple reasons as to why they or their rifles can't shoot. Some by swearing that one shot is all they need and others by shooting only 3 shot groups.

Assuming that you start with a cold, fouled barrel, if your follow shot isn't damn close to the first shot, either your rifle needs some work or you need to practice more.

X 2 I doubt if I ever hunted with a clean barrel roger

If you can do that every time, it's an MOA rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
Ok,
here is a second shot, fired about 30 seconds or so after the first...

unfortunately, game does not always allow one the same relaxed luxury of choosing the interval between shots like a stationary paper target does.

That's why ya' make sure you don't need a second shot. Usually at the ranges I shoot I can hear the thwack when the bullet hits. I immediately cycle the bolt in case I need a second shot and am back on target as soon as I can possibly be given my circumstances. If I have an inkling that a hog or deer might get up and run, I don't hesitate to put a second round in them.

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
That's why ya' make sure you don't need a second shot...

Ah, if life was always so certain, if it were the boredem & predictability would probably kill me.

Ge bub,it looks like it's shooting a little to the right to me .But I would hunt with it anytime.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
unfortunately, game does not always allow one the same relaxed luxury of choosing the interval between shots like a stationary paper target does.

Nope, although my last seven antelope were one-shot affairs. I have a similar Model 70; first two sohots are close, the third is consistently about three-quarters of an inch low and to the right of the first two. It's unusual to shoot more than once though, and the information on the succeeding shots comes mostly from paper targets.

When I bought 200 unprimed cases for the 6mm-284, I wondered if they'd last as long as the newly chambered barrel, now I wonder if I will last as long as the 200 cases. Probably not. My wife will sell them cheap when the time comes.

Trader Joe's has a $3 Sangiovese that's one of the benefits of Italian inflation...

TomP,
are your paper groups done with with rapid successive shots like one might face in the field?

I cant see how taking shots at paper at intervals that purely suites oneself, can necessarily be a true indication of how the rifle will perform under different time interval demands in the field.
Im more interested in how a rifle groups 3 shots in 15 seconds, than 5 in 3 minutes.

Trax,
I appreciate your concern,
I usually have no problem killing game.
I have been fortunate that what I lack in skill has been compensated by hard work and good luck.
And I'd rather be lucky than good any day.
Best
GWB

People want MOA hunting rifles, not because they need them, but because they want them.

There are very few people who can shoot 1 MOA unsupported. I can recall finishing a 100 yard Highpower match, in which if my recollection is correct, I shot a 481 with a M1a, and tried shooting my J.C. Higgins M50 sitting. I had sighted this rifle in with sand bags using bench support. It shot very well that way. I could barely hold the black sitting with a sling. That rifle was twitchy as all heck and hard to hold steady. I think it was 8 pounds with a scope, but I would much rather carry that through the woods than my 12-15 pound match rifle. Or my 17 pound NM AR15.

Whenever I have fired my hunting rifles without sand bags or a rest, the groups grow. So I decided, I could go deer hunting with a 2 MOA rifle or maybe even a 3 MOA rifle. The thing will shoot inside my hold.

Bipods have really transformed F-Class. F-Class shooters used to shoot on the same 2 MOA target as high power shooters. To stop having unbreakable ties, F-Class had to reduce the target to a half MOA target. (I think it is half MOA). Some of my highpower buds have won National F Class championships. They were hard holders prone with a sling. However they shoot tighter groups with that bipod.

I think those who think they need a 1 MOA hunting rifle have deceived themselves into thinking they can hold 1 MOA by the groups they got using a bench. Get off the bench and shoot a few groups.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
Trax,
I appreciate your concern,
I usually have no problem killing game.
I have been fortunate that what I lack in skill has been compensated by hard work and good luck.
And I'd rather be lucky than good any day.
Best
GWB

Luck is what you may be fortunate to encounter at a certain point, skills are something you carry with you and need to be applied.
Luck will often only play a certain brief part or take a person only so far, however, combined with good skills achieved through practice one can often achieve more easily & consistently. Practice itself can be hard work.

"Amateurs practice till they get it right, professionals practice till they cant get it wrong."

"Practice yourself, for heaven's sake, in little things; and thence proceed to greater." (Epictetus)

"To give yourself the best possible chance of playing to your potential, you must prepare for every eventuality. That means practice." (Seve Ballesteros)

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
TomP,
are your paper groups done with with rapid successive shots like one might face in the field?

I cant see how taking shots at paper at intervals that purely suites oneself, can necessarily be a true indication of how the rifle will perform under different time interval demands in the field.
Im more interested in how a rifle groups 3 shots in 15 seconds, than 5 in 3 minutes.

I've done it both ways; the barrel doesn't cool so fast and there's not an awful lot of difference between 15 seconds and 60 seconds for three shots. I bought the rifle about 1983 when we lived next to a Utah rifle range, and used to shoot a couple nights every week.

Ordinarily if there's much distance involved, there is time to get set up and I'll shoot prone off the same fanny pack I use for a rest at the range. Most of the time we hunt sage flats and there's very little need to shoot offhand (good, because my offhand shooting is nothing to write home to mother about).

The difference between the accuracy or "hold ability" of a rifle when fired from the bench and from field positions is why you need to practice shooting from field positions as part of your off season regimen.

If you practice enough then your follow shots will be the same if you roll them out or space them out.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Luck is what you may be fortunate to encounter at a certain point, skills are something you carry with you and need to be applied.
Luck will often only play a certain brief part or take a person only so far, however, combined with good skills achieved through practice one can often achieve more easily & consistently. Practice itself can be hard work.

Lets see,

I try to shoot weekly. Sometimes I go a couple of times.
I develop loads and practice, zeroed at the distance I expect to be shooting. I'm not under any pressure to kill, so I don't take shots that are questionable.

I've hunted the Texas hill country the last dozen years or so. We can legally take 5 whitetail deer per year. Exotics such as Sika, Axis, Blackbuck and Fallow deer can be shot year round. Audad sheep, corsican,mouflon, Texas dall are also free ranging and can be shot at will. I sometimes shoot 30 hogs plus per year (with my personal best being 15 hogs in two consecutive evenings.) Then we have fox,coyotes, badger, coons, ringtail cats, bobcats, nutria. Don't forget ravens and crows.
So lets say conservatively I've probably killed 500 or so game animals in the last twelve years.
IIRC, I've had to shoot two hogs more than once, and that was just to make sure they were anchored. I think I've lost one deer and a half dozen hogs during that period.
So I'd say I was pretty lucky.
Anyway, I'll let you have the last word if you like.

Best
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
That one shot out of a cold barrel is, indeed, of tremendous importance. From a hunting standpoint, it doesn't matter what it does after that. That's why, when I go to the range, I'm always trying to make as good a shot as possible with the first one. I want to have confidence that such will occur the way I want it to when a trophy deer walks out.

I believe if one is confident that his rifle will make that shot, he will be more consistent in making those shots in real hunting situations. If you have a gun that you know won't shoot better than a 4" group, I believe one's confidence level may wane and thus he is more apt to make a poor shot.

How well does your gun need to shoot for you to have the confidence you need to make the shot? Only you can answer that question.

Absolutely couldn't agree more with you Red C except I would add "a cold clean barrel". Having lived and hunted in wet climates and near the sea you must clean the barrel after each time out. The first shot from that cold clean barrel is going to be the killing shot.

Sure the firearm should be able to produce a good group at the same time but I have no use for a firearm who's first shot from a cold clean barrel is not the same as when it was last shot in on target.
When I leave the range I have to be satisfied and confident that my rifle is shooting good groups at the POA I have selected and it will put the first shot on this POA.

As far as I'm concerned there is no place for dirty barrels when leaving home and no place for foulers in the field. If you have a hunting firearm that won't put the first shot where you want it then get one that does, there is plenty of them out there.