Okay, I have a novice question about the 'Improved' cartridges.

I have a line on a .308 Improved Norma Magnum; it's a Mauser (what else?).

So does a guy fire .308 Norma Mag through this to fire-form the cases and then get dies, etc.? My understanding is the parent case is .375 H&H?

Any information on this process would be appreciated, thanks,

It's likely not made from .375 H&H brass but from 338 Mag brass....

If it were mine I'd be looking to rechamber it to .300 Win Mag

Theoretically one should be able to fire .300 Norma ammo in it as is....but theory and reality sometimes evades each other when the Ackley's are chambered...Buy it, if you must, assuming you'll either rechamber it or rebarrel it or fireform some brass and use that brass to have custom dies made.

Unless it's chambered to something standard, a year from now you'll describe it as a pain in the a$$

The .308 Norma Mag is also known by the name .30/.338 Magnum. They are not exactly the same, but the only real difference is a tiny bit different shoulder on each.

They use the same loading data and perform the same...allowing for the differences between any two rifle barrels and chambers.

In the old days I had both. I still have the .30/.338, but not because it is different or any better. I just happen to like the rifle mine is chambered in...a 1914 original Newton. My last .308 Norma Mag was a Schultz and Larsen M65DL and it was a good rifle, but I wanted to save this old Newton rifle from destruction so when I decided one or the other should go, I kept the Newton.

Anyway, you can either buy dies specifically made to form .338 Win Mag cases into .308 NM-AI, or you can form more or less .308 NM cases from .338 Win Mag cases in a .308 NM full-length sizing die, and then fire-form them in the rifle to get the AI shoulder

I must add however, that unless you REALLY enjoy fire-forming and wildcat handloading, you're gonna spend a whole lot of time making and forming cases just to end up with a cartridge that isn't any more powerful than a .300 Win Mag, and for which you can't buy finished brass anywhere to speak of.

It will be fun the first while, but it can get old fairly rapidly.

Personally, if I had to have a clone of a .308 Norma Mag (which I think is a grand artridge without any "Ackley-style" improvement) I'd just buy or build a .30/.338 istead. Dies for that are not a custom item when bought from one of several die makers.

So, long story short, unless it is a really special rifle or at a really special low price, I'd just keep walking.

P.S: Ypu CAN make brass for the .308 Norma AI from .375 H&H brass, but that is a TRUE pain in the butt!! Then you not only have to do a lot of case trimming, but you also need to be very careful about neck thickness and may have to inside ream or outside neck turn your cases before fireforming.

What Vd and AC are saying has a lot of merit. From a different perspective though If you want to have some fun and get some real learning experience the odd ball or wildcat cartridges will give you that. VD and AC have done it and they have learned. I still do it. Slow learner I guess. roger

Great information guys, thank you.

Well the rifle is a nice old-school 1960s sporterized Mauser at a very attractive price. And it's begging to be rebarreled in .338 Win Mag.

quote:

it's begging to be rebarreled in .338 Win Mag.

excellent move but a warning....make sure the 338 Mags feed in the action before you spend any money on it....many Mauser conversions were not properly opened to feed the larger rounds.

If you don't have the dies to fit the chamber, then rebarreling is a good idea.

IMO, the real "improved" 308 Norma is the 323 Hollis, which is the parent case simply necked up to 8mm.

It's second from the right, next to the 338 WM.

Left to right - 8x57, 8x60s, 8mm-06, 323 Hollis, 338WM


KB

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

it's begging to be rebarreled in .338 Win Mag.

excellent move but a warning....make sure the 338 Mags feed in the action before you spend any money on it....many Mauser conversions were not properly opened to feed the larger rounds.

And if it will feed from the action correctly, you might check to see if the barrel can just be rebored to .338 Winchester. That usually runs about $225, while rebarreling can go from about $400 to as high as $525 pretty easily if you are using a respected maker's barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:
Okay, I have a novice question about the 'Improved' cartridges.

I have a line on a .308 Improved Norma Magnum; it's a Mauser (what else?).

So does a guy fire .308 Norma Mag through this to fire-form the cases and then get dies, etc.? My understanding is the parent case is .375 H&H?

Any information on this process would be appreciated, thanks,

Redding makes Form/Trim die for the 308 Norma and it run $28 plus shipping from Sinclair and Sinclair sell 308 Norma brass @ $140 per 100

The 308 Norma mag case is longer than the 30-338 mag. It might we worth to form from the 300mag case as you have less case body to set back vs using the 375 H&H case.

I shoot the 30-338mag and one problem for many years was brass for the 308 Norma or lack of it. We have one member in our gun club that has a Browning Safari in 308 Norma.

If I was interest in a 308 Norma Imp I sure want to see some cases/dies might even have gunsmith ch it out.

PSmith The 358 Norma was introduced in 1959. Norma had determined it was the largest case that would function thru a Mauser 98 without altering the action. The 308 Norma was launched about 1961. While the case is very similar to a shortened H&H cases the norma dimensions are slightly different. ie/ the Norma case head is listed as .530" rather than .532"of the H&H case. The 338 Win can be necked up or down and used for the 308 N or the 358 N .If you were going to form 308 Norma Imp cases from 338 I would suggest you back out your size die so you are only reducing about 1/8 inch of the neck from 338 down to 308. Try chambering that case in the rifle.You shouldn't be able to completely close the bolt. Turn your size die in another 1/4 turn and resize that case again. Try it in the chamber again. Continue this until you can chamber the case with some slight resistance as the bolt reaches the full close position. This will give you zero headspace . Load these cases and fireform. Hope that helps.

Everyone has their own view about forming Norma cases.

While it is true that the shoulder on the .308 Norma is .020" to .040+" farther ahead than on the .338, the cases headspace initially on the belt until fired, not the shoulder. That is true even with the factory Norma .308 Mag cases So it is quite feasible to blow the shoulder forward to form cases from .338 which will headspace on both the belt and the shoulder even if one inadvertantly has the shoulder still at .338 length from the cartridge base.

I know that thought panics some folks and gives them the purple heebie-jeebies. But I have never had a problem with it and see it as a none issue. It certainly doesn't carry the hazards that forming .30 Gibbs cases from .30-06 or .280 Remington may carry.

It is also easy to use a die to put the shoulder in the right place, IF one makes a false shoulder by necking the case down in steps as Snowman suggests. Either way works just fine. It is basically a simple mechanical problem, which takes care and time (but not genius) to resolve.

And of course, it depends on who cut the chamber, using which reamer(s), and to what dimensions as to exactly what must be done. In the late 1950s, Norma would also provide gunsmithing tool "kits" for chambering rifles to the Norma Mag cases, with explicit instructions as to just how far to run the reamers into the barrel, etc. But lots of folks ran them in too far, so in those days chambers could be almost anything dimensionally. For an experienced wildcatter, no sweat. For a would-be wildcatter, a good place to learn.