What's the consensus out there, Gents, for an effective bullet weight for the 35 Whelen Improved in bushveld conditions on plains game? Seems to me the 250 gets the nod, but that eliminates the Barnes as they no longer make a 250 X or TSX. So if I go Barnes I've got to go 225. The North Fork 250 looks very good. Any suggestions?

I've been really satisfied with the 250 Grain Nosler Partiton.
RIch Elliott

The 225 TSX will do it all, as will the Northfork. The 250 Speer is a bucket load cheaper, and seems to do about as well at Whelen speeds. I've just laid in "a few" 225 Accubonds, hoping to field test them this Fall. FWIW, Dutch.

Factory loaded 250 grain Remington Core-Lokts also work just fine.

Always remember, Barnes recommends going down one bullet weight from what you'd use in a cup-and-core style--ala, CoreLokt. I used a 225 gr X bullet with great success on plains game in my 338-06AI and I also load the 225 TSX in my Whelen.

I use Barnes cause I want success. Some folks would rather rub a couple quarters together in their pockets and harrumph about the money they saved. I decided not to take chances where there's a multi-hundred dollar trophy fee at stake.

I second the 225gr. out of the Whelen, and I go along with the concept of the bullet being the cheapest part of the equation when it comes to hunting. Why spend so much $$$$ on gun and stock and scope and travel, and then scrimp on the bullets used. Does not make sense to me. The bullet is the most important part of the equation when the trigger is pulled in my opinion.

With modern premium bullets, ie barnes TSX, or swift a-frame, I see no need to go past 225 gr in the whelen or imp.

Guy's,

If your not shooting at least a 250 why have a Whelen. The 30-06 will shoot 220's fast enough and far enough and flat for most folks.

I have not tried 250s because the 225s have worked great for me. If I was to use it for big bears or buffalo I might consider 250s. Lou

quote:

Originally posted by elk hunter:
Guy's,

If your not shooting at least a 250 why have a Whelen. The 30-06 will shoot 220's fast enough and far enough and flat for most folks.

My results with the 225 grain in the Whelen yielded a sub MOA, 2600 fps load that suits any big game hunting application I will likely encounter in the United States. Considering the Frontal diameter of the 35, I'll take the big punch over lethergic velocity, deep penetration of the .30 cal 220 grain pill.

225 is good.

I've used the Speer 250 here in Washington for deer and have had nothing but good luck. Very accurate and inexpensive. I also use the Nosler 250 Partition with the same load with the same results for heavier game (ie: Elk and plains game).

Bigger bore...bigger bullets for me!

I belive that if velocity is 2800 FPS or less, there is no need for a premium bullet in the .35 Whelen. If you have a rifle that will push a 250 gr. Speer Hot-core to 2550-2600 FPS, what more do you need? factory Whelen ammo is not loaded to it's full potential due ro Remington also making pump action rifles chambered to the cartridge. My three Whelens all are comfortable pressurewise at 2550 FPS with either the Speer bullet or the Hornady Spire Point, both at 250 grains. I have friends that use the 250 gr. Speer bullet exclusively for Moose and Grizzly in Canada and have absolutely no qualms using it for the big bear.
I believe that the premium bullets belong in the high velocity cartridge like the .270 Win. and the magnums. I really don't think the Whelen needs them. However, if that floats you boat, so be it.
Paul B.

TWL,

I have taken many (maybe 30 now) head of plains game now with my 35 Whelen. All of it has been taken with 225 grain Barnes X or TSX. To say I favor these bullets would be an under statement. These bullets just work, expand, penetrate and leave a good blood trail.

I load them with Reloader 15 to 2625 fps.

Why 225 grain? ...The 225 grain TSX will give you all the penetration of the 250 gr(more then some including 250 grain Nosler Partitiions and Speers)with less recoil and flatter trajectory.

My .35 whelen started life with 250 gr. speer's and worked well on the Buffalo I shot with it. for heavy game this would be my first choise.
I since have swiched to 225gr sierra's because I found myself using the whelen for pigs and deer and I liked the expantion of the .225's.

TWL ----- I just have one word of advice if you shoot a .358 caliber bullet, give the North Forks a try. I realize at the speeds the Whelan gives does not necessarily require a premium bullet, but if you like pin point accuracy, you will appreciate the North Fork bullets. I shoot the 225, 250 and 270 grain North Forks with my two .358 STA's and get impressed each time I shoot them from the bench are at an animal. They are by far the most accurate premium bullets in my barrels, perhaps they will be in yours. I have taken Elk, Deer, Kongoni, Impala and Cape Buffalo with them and always have had excellent results. With their bonded core frontal section and solid shank you will not be short changed on structural strength, yet always get that perfect mushroom. The grooves assure they will not foul the barrel as in some monometal bullets. Just my experience and opinion for what it is worth. Good shooting.

BigBullet, what have been the lowest impact velocities you've has when using the TSX on game? I have the impression that the TSX has a lower minimum impact velocity than the plain X, but I haven't seen any hard numbers.

Everyone froths at the mouth over the performance of the TSXs, but in a moderate velocity cartridge like the Whelen I wonder if its soft enough out at 250-300 yards.

250 Nosler Partition @ 2550- 2600fps is perfect for anything you will use the Whelen for.

Couch,

I have never checked out the calcualted velocity. I have taken impala at over 250 yards through the lungs, no bone hit. The exit was half dollar size, with pieces of lung hanging out (sorry fot the crude desciption). I have shot a mt zebra at 300+ yards. The bullet was not found but the internal damage was significant. That being said IMO,it was pushing the limits of the cartridge.

"I use Barnes cause I want success. Some folks would rather rub a couple quarters together in their pockets and harrumph about the money they saved. I decided not to take chances where there's a multi-hundred dollar trophy fee at stake."

Core-Lokts work just fine. We aren't talking about armor-plated animals, after all. Plenty of animals have been taken with plain-jane bullets so maybe the sneering is misplaced.

I'll admit to never having bought into the "gotta have a premium bullet" line of thinking. More power to those that want to shoot premiums. I sure do wish, though, that they'd stop looking down their noses at us that do something different.

Daks, I am not sure taht it is a case of looking downoses at folks that don't use premium bullets, as much as it is a case of people looking up their noses at those of us that do prefer using premium bullets.

I still have to wonder why people will spend all the money they do on hunts and rifles and scopes and gadjets, yet scrimp over the price of a bullet.

I use premium bullets for all my hunting, and that includes Javelina and Whitetail Deer. I just don't see where saving a dollar or two at the most for the cost of a premium bullet, gains a shooter anything.

I have had core-locts and Hornady's fail, I have never had an "X" bullet fail.

If a person wants to use non premium bullets, that is their business, but stating that they are looked down upon because they choose to do so, in my opinion is not the way things are.

Admittedly, I am not going to be real sympathetic towards anyone that decided that after spending X amount of money on gear and licenses and trip fees, and then using a non premium bullet that fails to do the job at the shot.

JMO.

Well, it was certainly true in this thread, anyway. All I stated was that for the Whelen, factory Core-Lokts work great. That's been my experience and I shared it. No denigration of anyone using anything else.

Yet someone who uses premium bullets took that as some sort of implied criticism and decided call folks like me cheap.

I'd say that was looking down one's nose.

I've never had a problem with factory loads with failure to perform acceptably. Others have different experiences. So it goes. As long as I'm not denigrating the use of premium bullets, I'd appreciate not having my choice derided.

In the end, it isn't the choice of bullet that I'm concerned about. It's just a bullet, right? It is more the attitude being expressed that somehow, I'm not not as "in with the in crowd" because I don't choose to get involved with using premium bullets. I've just never had the need to use them.

I hunt elk with a 250 grain speer.
I am thinking of building another whelen, just cause i like it,
But the 225 grain TSX should be a great stopper too.
I woould think you could get 2700 with out pushing you .35 Whelen AI to hard ?
...tj3006

quote:

If your not shooting at least a 250 why have a Whelen. The 30-06 will shoot 220's fast enough and far enough and flat for most folks.

Bigger diameter kills better, higher velocity kills farther.

IMO the 225 standard or premium will do everything you need in the Whelen.

I feel a lighter bullet will transfer more energy and a heavier bullet will penetrate deeper. Pick your poison.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
I use Barnes cause I want success. Some folks would rather rub a couple quarters together in their pockets and harrumph about the money they saved. I decided not to take chances where there's a multi-hundred dollar trophy fee at stake.

Well maybe some of us simply dont buy the hype that Barnes sells. Cracks me up the way some folks act like they have purchased anti bullet failure insurance by using a Barnes. Can you say broken petals and penciled wound channels?? Too funny..

225 gn Partitions or 250 gn Hornadys are excellent in the Whelen.

Dutch,

Let us know how you like those 225 Accubonds..

quote:

Originally posted by elk hunter:
Guy's,

If your not shooting at least a 250 why have a Whelen. The 30-06 will shoot 220's fast enough and far enough and flat for most folks.

I can get 2800+ fs with a 200 gn slug from my whelen, cant even sniff that with my 06. The Whelen is much more efficent with bigger bullets. Bigger frontal area and thus more energy transfer as well. Nice Elk medicne.

quote:

Originally posted by elk hunter:
Guy's,

If your not shooting at least a 250 why have a Whelen. The 30-06 will shoot 220's fast enough and far enough and flat for most folks.

Amen, I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by Daks:
Well, it was certainly true in this thread, anyway. All I stated was that for the Whelen, factory Core-Lokts work great. That's been my experience and I shared it. No denigration of anyone using anything else.

Yet someone who uses premium bullets took that as some sort of implied criticism and decided call folks like me cheap.

I'd say that was looking down one's nose.

I've never had a problem with factory loads with failure to perform acceptably. Others have different experiences. So it goes. As long as I'm not denigrating the use of premium bullets, I'd appreciate not having my choice derided.

In the end, it isn't the choice of bullet that I'm concerned about. It's just a bullet, right? It is more the attitude being expressed that somehow, I'm not not as "in with the in crowd" because I don't choose to get involved with using premium bullets. I've just never had the need to use them.

quote:

Originally posted by Daks:
Federal has indeed quit making the TBBC in .35 Whelen. I was sad to see it go because it shot so much better in my gun than the Remingtons. I've sent many letters asking them to bring it back. It was a great load and did major damage to whatever I shot it at.

TWL, the original questioner asked for opinions on what to use in bushveld conditions for African plains game. Did you use those TBBC's on African plains game?

I'm sorry I hit a raw nerve there DAKS. I wasn't looking my nose down at you or anyone else who uses Core-Lokt type bullets. In fact, I still use bulk factory Core-Lokts on white-tailed deer.

I did a little checking on your posts. Most are in the political crater. Most of the rest are you defending being cheap...cheap bullets, cheap promo shotshells. So what's the deal with those TBBC's? Are you one given to hypocrisy?

I decided that a lot of bullets can be bought with a $900 southern greater kudu trophy fee if I draw blood but the trackers can't find the animal after all. I'm not a gambling man. 14 trophy animals went bang-flop using 225 Barnes X bullets. I never had that happen on deer using Core-lokts.

Edit to add: My Namibian PH Fred Burchell recommended I use premium bullets. I wasn't about to argue with him. I could just as well have used another brand, but I picked Barnes and they worked superbly in both rifles I took with me.

You Boy's should have beat me to the Rhino's..
AK

Is there anything wrong with the 225 or 250 swift A-Frames that no one has mentioned?

"I did a little checking on your posts. Most are in the political crater. Most of the rest are you defending being cheap...cheap bullets, cheap promo shotshells. So what's the deal with those TBBC's? Are you one given to hypocrisy?"

Sounds to me like you are looking for a pissing match.

Ever consider that I might have found that the plain jane stuff worked pretty durn good AFTER I shot a couple of boxes of TBBC? The problem was copper fouling. I have a pump rifle and thought my regular regime of Hoppes was doing the trick. It wasn't. After I started using a foaming bore cleaner (Outers) which got the copper out, the regular Core-Lokts shot fine. Even with the copper fouling, the TBBC's shot OK, better than the Core-Lokts did in the presence of copper fouling. Ditto the Woodleighs I tried, looking for some way to get the gun to shoot properly. I was getting patterns, not groups. So, I gave the plain old Remingtons a proper try and they shot pretty good. But this was AFTER I mooned over the loss of my premium bullets that "shot so well". Turns out, when the gun was properly cleaned, so did the nonpremium stuff.

Now what is most interesting about all this is the fact that you are so interested in starting a bickering match that you couldn't wait to find some way, any way, to ensure that your opinion squelched mine. Kinda insecure, wouldn't you say? I mean, if you are so worked up about your own choice of bullet that you have to go do research to find something to use against someone who disagrees with you, perhaps you are taking this all a wee bit too seriously and are in desperate need of a life?

Maybe you need a premium bullet because you are not that good a shot. Maybe you focus on bang/flops because you can't track more than 10 feet. Either way, I don't think I want to go hunting with you.

BTW, you call it "cheap", I call it "not wasting money on a Cadillac when a Buick will do just fine." I don't pick my components based on "the best", I pick them on "appropriate for the job". If something less expensive gets the job done acceptably, I get no thrill from knowing I spent three times as much more. Maybe you do. Different strokes, as they say.

I'd like to point out, though, that I did not once denigrate anyone in this thread for choosing a premium bullet. You started the festivities by looking down your nose at me. When I responded, you tried to find some other reason for looking down your nose at me, such as implying I am a hypocrite. We've strayed away from the point of the thread and are now talking trash to each other.

Proud of that? I'm not, so I'll let you embarrass yourself a bit more. I'm done here. I'll be interested to see if you can also let it go or if you'll do more research on my posts to find some way to continue bickering. My guess is that you try to find some way to shut down someone who disagrees with you. That seems to be more important than just sharing opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
Is there anything wrong with the 225 or 250 swift A-Frames that no one has mentioned?

Can't think of any.

Of course, in today's world a bullet has to be sleek, sexy, in a 36-29-36 sort of way...... High B.C.'s, perfect weight retention, and superb, near-benchrest level accuracy.

The A-frame is sort of like the homely, sweet girl that comes from a rich family, and can cook. Everything that's important is there, but you pass her by in pursuit of that hot babe with the bleech job and the attitude.

In the Whelen, standard cup and core bullets do just fine as far as making holes all the way through; BC doesn't matter one iota at hunting ranges (though that Speer bullet's no slouch), and accuracy is plenty-fine.

So why did I lay in 300 Accubonds? Cause they look SO HOT (and I bought them right). FWIW, Dutch.

I have up-ended more White Tails, Muleys, Elk, and Black Bear than I can remember with the 250 gr Speer. You don't need premium bullets in the Whelen, and the ballistic difference between 225 and 250 just don't matter under 300 yards.

Barstooler

Thank you gentlemen, for your input.

My question was generated by the fact that I have a really neat custom mauser, tricked out like an African bush gun with barrel band, quarter rib, express sights, and QD mounts, in 35 Whelen Imp. In previous trips to Africa I've used a 300Wea, a 338WM, and a 375H&H. The Whelen is going along this September,and since I've not used a 35 Whelen on game, I thought I'd ask for input.

I think that those of you who opined that the ballistic difference between the 225 and the 250 is negligble out to reasonable hunting distances are probably correct.

As for the debate over premium bullets vs other designs, I have to go with the premiums. No snobery here, just experience in shooting a lot of game both in the US and in Africa, with both types. The premiums get the nod. All the bullets I've use kill, but the premiums do it more effectively, in my experience. I believe it's one of my obligations as a sportsman to use the best, most efficent and effective ammo.

So, here's what I'm going to do. I've put in a stock of both 225's and 250's in the following brands: Swift, Barnes, Northfork, and Nosler. I'm going to spend the summer working up loads for each bullet, in each brand, and head off to the range for a good old fashion shoot off.

The most accurate load gets the seat on the plane to Africa. I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

Thanks again for your input.

Good hunting. Tom

TWL, sounds like you are making the right choice, although I do side with DAKS here that dead is dead, and why overbuy? It's cool to have a new 427 Corvette, but if you use it to go to the grocery store and get a gallon of milk and a dozen eggs once a week you're just as well off with a Cobalt.
I wonder how anybody ever killed anything in Africa bigger than a dik-dik before premium bullets were invented. I really wonder how leventy-three million American Bison got killed with a stinking 405gr cast bullet in front of 55gr of FFg Black Powder at yardages generally over 300 yards. How could they have been so reckless?

Rich
DRSS

TWL.. I my chime in a bit late, but dont rule out the 250 gr Woodleigh.
It´s the bullet I have been using for moose hunting bak home, and it´s a real Thors hammer !

If I was going to Africa I would load at least half my ammo with the 250 grain Partition and the other half with the 250 grain Speers. I use the 250 grain Hotcor in a 358 BLR and report complete satisfaction with it. There is no bullet, price included that really outperforms the 250 gr. Speer Hotcor on American game. I feel that the guys with insecurity complexes are the ones always reccomending the so called premium bullets for use on all game right down to javelina.

quote:

Originally posted by Daks:
Sounds to me like you are looking for a pissing match.

Why? Because I caught you in a bald-faced lie? I'm not(sic) not as "in with the in crowd" because I don't choose to get involved with using premium bullets. I've just never had the need to use them. That statement certainly doesn't equate with this one you made:
quote:
Originally posted by Daks:
Federal has indeed quit making the TBBC in .35 Whelen. I was sad to see it go because it shot so much better in my gun than the Remingtons. I've sent many letters asking them to bring it back. It was a great load and did major damage to whatever I shot it at.

Pissing match? Not at all. TWL was looking for opinions on using his 35 Whelen Improved on plains game. You were quick to say, "Factory loaded 250 grain Remington Core-Lokts also work just fine." That factory offering is pretty anemic as it is, much less fired in an improved chamber. And at game that can weigh 900 pounds. With a hefty trophy fee attached whether you recover it or not.


So I was just wondering...What did you base your answer on? What game did you kill with those 250 grain factory Remingtons that has revelance to a guy asking about plains game? Deer, bear, moose, elk?
You skipped over my question of what you used those TBBC's on. Those are about as premium as you can get.

Who's talking trash? All of my comments are based on fact. Unless you can come up with some facts to counter your two-faced comments, you're just shooting your mouth off.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Well maybe some of us simply dont buy the hype that Barnes sells. Cracks me up the way some folks act like they have purchased anti bullet failure insurance by using a Barnes. Can you say broken petals and penciled wound channels?? Too funny..

Bingo. If the Barnes is a premium bullet, JFK is alive and well and running a shadow government from Palm Springs.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I have only taken one game animal with a Barnes bullet. I am very impressed with the results.
But from my experence, they are very acurate in many rifles.
Certaily I ever get the chance to hunt in africa, I will take the best bullet for the job.
To scrimp and save a few bucks on a absolutly critcle componant of a 10,000 hunt, seems stupid to me.
...tj3006

I know this thread started out asking about 225 vs. 250 gr bullets in the Whelen (and then partly derailed), but can I inquire:

Anyone actually use 35 caliber SAF 280 gr on game at Whelen velocities?

I've reloaded some with a moderate dose of RL15 and they are accurate and make a satisfying boom.

I've used the now-discontinued Fed TBBC 225 on an AK. black bear, and it hit like a hammer. I cannot help but think the 280 gr would be even more of a thumper on close up big bears or maybe hunting the jess in southern africa?