I have been shooting and hunting with a Model 70 .300WSM for the
last three years. I have harvested 10 head of game ranging from
whitetail to aoudad. All have died without a struggle. The gun has
a nice laminated stock that now has many "love" marks from actual
hunting experience. The gun is very willing to shoot very tiny
groups with stout bullets like Swift A Frames and Nosler partitions.
The flatness of trajectory is very similar to .300WM or a 7mm Mag.
I have had a very positive experience and believe the cartridge
lives up to most of the hype that came out in all the Gun Magazines.
My question is: What is the feeling of the group about the .300WSM
after the newness has worn off and the hype has died down?

To clarify, I have shot none of the short mags, but I think it and the .270 WSM are real keepers. And I really don't think the comparisons should be between the .300 WSM and the .300 Win Mag but between the 300 WSM and the .308 Win because the WSM is usually (or should be) chambered in rifles of similar size and weight to the .308 not the .300 Win Mag. Another thing to look at is that the military and police snipers seem to be gravitating toward the .300 WSM and those guys are in a deadly serious business. Their armourers can probably convert their .308 Remingtons (rechamber or swap barrels, swap magazine box, open the bolt face and install Sako extractor) to the .300 WSM without much hassle and they get a lot better ballistics. I doubt they would move to a cartridge that was a "flash in the pan", and any cartridge used by our military is hardly ever "done" - well you might exempt the 44 Henry rimfire, 50-70, .38 Colt, and 6mm Lee-Navy. But, I've got both a 45LC and a .308 myself .

I want one of the Kimber 8400 Montana rifles in .270 WSM so bad I can taste it , but have got to finish the .375 H&H project first .

I would like to see some data on sales. My guess is that the WSM's are a big hit. The 7mm WSM version got off to a late start however and is almost duplicated by the 270 WSM so it may not catch on.

I may buy a Kimber Montana in 270 WSM when they are available. I have a couple of the old fashioned 300 mags now so a 300 WSM is not on the horizon and there is nothing around here that requires one anyway.

I, of course, can only speak for what is going on locally, but the WSM rifles are selling well around here. (Central California)

My dad bought a Model 70 Winchester in the 7 WSM and it is a great rifle. It is the stainless model with the camo stock. He has killed 10 or more wild hogs with it already, it really puts them on the ground. I have hunted with him and handled it, it is a nice rifle.

My buddy just ordered one today, same rifle but chambered in the 270 WSM. Another friend also bought one in 7 WSM.

Ran into several guys in the deer hunting woods last year with new Model 70's chambered for the short mags. Oddly enough most were the 270 or 7mm version, don't remember seeing any 300 WSM rifles.

I myself have not seen the need to change, I already own a 7mm Wby Mag and a 300 Wby Mag. However, if I did not own those rifles and wanted a magnum I would buy a WSM for sure.

Having said that, I bought a 223 WSSM and it was a big mistake. The gun is fast as hell, but quite inaccurate. I think it will have to go. Chalk it up to experience.

If anything is a flash in the pan, I am afraid it is Remington's version of the short mag. I am aware of NO interest in them around here.

Time will tell, R F

The WSM's are great cartridges, the 270 is probably my favorite. The remingtons will likely not succeed IMO.....DJ

I think there is a place in the market for the winchester short mags and possibly some wildcats (6.5 &.338) based on them. The Remington short mags may not make it since winchester beat them to the punch and the gun writers haven't really pushed them as much. The Rem ultra mags may survive but the average hunters inability to withstand the recoil will limit their sales to the dangerous game hunters. I doubt the .300wsm will replace the .300wm Unless Winchester decides to discontinue the .300wm.

I think anybody who is now in the market for a new rifle in the 30-06 or 300 Win Mag class, would probably buy the 300 WSM instead of either of those two. So I would say it's here to stay.

From a handloading perspective, the 300 WSM is the best .308 caliber round to work with.

1. A primed case weighs 257 grains...same as the 375 H&H but with no belt and 4/5th inch shorter. For their capacity, thety are the strongest cases made.
2. The 300 version is more forgiving and more flexible than the 270 or 7MM.
3. Alleged problems with heavy bullets are a myth. 220 grainers do over 2700 fps with ease and fine accuracy.
4. The 300 WSM works very well with reduced loads and lower load densities...hence, you get a 308 or an '06 in the deal with no loss in accuracy.
5. I can't get these cases to stretch....at ALL.

I have only sold the 300 WSM. The 270 looks like it should be super.
The customers that have purchased the 300WSM from me are MOST happy with the way they shoot and have no interest in selling them. One went to Africa immediately and really did well over there.
I have sold a couple of the 300 Ultras but have had no reports back from them re:hunting.
I don't think you will see the 300 WSM go away nor will you see the 300 Win Mag go away...matter of fact...I would bet all the 300's period will hang around for many more years.
Let me see...if you could get the performance of the Wby. in the length of the WSM and make it feed like a H&H....ifs and buts ...candy and nuts.

Sadly, although the short mag really brings nothing new to the table, and is a poorly designed short necked short throated rifle cartridge combination, it'll be around for a long while because it is noval and getting a lot of press.There is nothing great and wonderful coming out of the short mags' barrles we haven't had for 35years. The marketing people have just found a new way to perk your interest. Having read this thread I must give them kudus for seemingly doing a good hood wink. On the receiving end there was no need and there is no need. P.T. Barnum knew what he was talking about. "one born evey minute" roger

Just read a Sundra article where he states the 7WSM will perform equal to the STW. If you'll buy that..........



Chuck

Here are his exact words: "To my mind, I was holding the perfect vessel for launching not .30-caliber bullets, but .284-caliber bullets; a cartridge so effecient it would surely come close to matching the performance of the much larger 7 MM STW with considerably less powder, and in a short-action rifle."

This kind of horse manure is one of the reasons I'm so objectional to this campaign.

Chuck

Chuck, I'm of the belief Sundra is a sap.



The only WSM I'm interested in is the 300... it'll get a 180 right at 3,000 fps and a 165 at 3,100. Those are good, general purpose bullet weight's and velocities. Anything a belted 300 WM won't do? Nope. I'll be getting the aptly named Kimber 8400 Montana when available as I can't imagine a finer, all-rounder for here in Montana. 7.75 lbs scoped and slung with three down... for me it's the rifle more than the cartridge.

Chuck, by now, I think that you probably realize that there are horses for courses and there are gunwriters and there are gunwriters........One very, very famous gunwriter once wrote words to the effect that the .375H&Hs time should never have come in Africa. Most, if not all of these guys will write and say about anything to sell an article, IMO.

I really wish that you would quit talking about this as it is making me want one way too much! I have been thinking along the same lines ever since I saw the first advert on these---godam gunmakers-gunwriters, no wonder I am always broke!

But, you are right, this will be as fine a real "mountain rifle" as one can hope to find and although my local dealer has seen them and is not impressed, I think that this is more a lack of enthusiasm for investing more money in inventory in our crappy gun market here in Canada.

If, you get your hands on one, please let me know what it is like in terms of feeding, accuracy and handling; you will see them in Montana a good year before we do up here.

Kutenaymtnboy



Now I think I have seen just about everything. You wanting a "newfangled" winchester with one of those newfangled short fat cartridges!!!!



Blue

There hasn't been a "need" to invent a new cartridge for almost a century. What could you hunt now that you couldn't with a 7x57 or 30 Newton? But the thing is that a lot of us are blessed enough to buy things we want or like either to experiment with them or try something a little different. The WSM's are different enough to be fun IMO.
The 300WSM is a slightly improved version of the 300 Win Mag, although if equaly Handloaded the WSM is a little slower. I like the WSM's because I've already played with enough 300 Win Mags.
I think the 270 WSM is the best of the lot because it fills a Niche not occupied. The 300 WSM is too close to a Win, Norma, or 30-338 to be totally revolutiony. The 270 WSM fills a slot between 270 Win and 270 Weatherby all by itself. The 300 is more versital but adds to a long list of 30 Mags - a long but highly useful and distinguished list............dj

I really like the .300 WSM. I never looked at is as a replacement for my .300 Win Mag, nor will it quite match the ballistics if both loaded to the hilt. However, it delivers a 180 grain bullet at close to 3000 fps out of my Browning A-bolt in a package that is as handy & light as my .280 Rem M700 Mt.Rifle. I find that nice when I want to carry a bit more oomph than my favorite cals (.270/.280), while not sacrificing trajectoy or handiness. The .300 WSM or any of it's ilk do not offer anything new in terms of on game performance, but I do think they make it easier to bring magnum power into portable rifles. Not full blown Roy Weatherby ballistics, but enough to make them useful over 06 case based designs for certain uses (i.e. heavyweight bullets at the a bit more velocity than the 06 cases shoot lighter ones).

-Lou

Kutenay, I'll let you know when mine arrives and give a report. Like I said, it's less the cartridge than the rifle that houses it. Before the 8400 MT I'd not been able to find any enthusiasim for any rifle. Like you I'm a bit of a wilderness wanderer and like you the benefit's of a flat shooting, hard hitting, easy carrying crf rifle are not lost on me!

Keeping my finger's crossed,

Brad

Brad-I know I could of used that light lil rifle on my back tonight. I about barfed up a lung riding up the hill on the old mtn bike-I either gotta get younger and tougher or I gotta get a Montana........grins.

Saw no bruins but I did a heck of a work out in! Too bad you weren't there to pull me up at that hill you billy goat!

C-Ya tomorrow night for bruins part 2

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz


(you suppose we could get Pete to hurry one up for us to give it a good trial this spring yet??wishing hopefully I ask

Yogi tomorrow pm!

I don't have a use for the Short Mags, but I look at them as a mag version of a 308 more than anythng.

Over a full size mag, (under 375 caliber I personally question the need for them, but that is just me, and not inviting an argument with anyone) I see a lot of utility in the short mags.

I have finally considered building one in 7mm just to play with it, so I have hands on experience instead of just no practical experience to base a bias for or against on.

I like how they are downloadable over a full size mag. One can take it down to a 7/08 or 7/30 Waters equal or bump it up to be more than a 280.

For all practical purpose tho, for big game except Alaskan bears, I don't see much practical use over the original 7 x 57, 6.5 x 55, or the old 30/06 myself....

But that is just me,

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

I think the WSM's are here to stay.
Myself I never cared for the belted mags,not to say there is anything wrong with them because there isn't.
I like the 300 WSM and someday will get a 7mm and maybe the 270 WSM.I do believe they are all good rounds but that they fall more in between the standards and belted mag,than match the later.

Someone mentioned the Rem Ultra Mags ,which the more I shoot my 300 RUM the more I like them,the recoil of mine at least is FAR Overrated (I shoot mostly 150 gr loads).This being overrated recoil and the coming out of the WSM's has put the sales of these both ammo and rifles in the dumber around here.

I agree with your assessment I am 55 years old and have hunted since I was 8. Bullet placement is the very most important thing. I have taken more game with the 7MM Rem Mag than anything else. I would now prefer to use my .375RUM as it is accurate and hits with the power of Thor, but at age 55 the nice, light, and somewhat handsome Mod 70 in .300WSM really appeals to my age and sensibilities. I will be using the .300WSM on a BC Spring bear hunt in May '04 with 180gr. Swift A-Frames going about 2950FPS and expect the cartridge to do it's job if I do mine. My preferences run to a total package today, that is an efficient cartridge in an efficient package. I believe that the Model 70's being manufactured today are some of the most accurate and precision ever produced by Winchester. I have four of them in calibers from the .300WSM to a custom .458Lott and they all shoot like a house afire. I am not casting any aspersions on the "Real Pre '64" Model 70's. It is just that today's manufacturing processes are extremely precise and efficient and the guns produced are capable of a high level of accuracy.

The short, fat design is proving to be inherently more accurate as are the rifles that are being manufactured for them. The WSM(and the WSSM) line is here to stay but Remington came out to late with their own line, the RSAUM, and they don�t look to make it. I just took delivery of a new Savage Model 10GXP3 - with AccuTrigger in .270 WSM. Going to see for myself whether or not the accuracy of these new Savage�s are what everyone is reporting. Lawdog

The only positive thing about SFMs in this thread is the fact it gives us something new to play with. (old boy's toys). Did anyone start to notice that in these golden years how recoil seems to be of a higher priority than it was earlier in life? If it has a larger bore and or larger powder capacity than a 7x57 it's not for me anymore unless it's got a compensator on it or I'm shooting reduced loads. I've got a couple or more large cal. home brewed wildcats and for some reason they don't see the use they once did, unless I'm experimenting with powders.Short fat kicking toys; OK. Justification for long term existance ? beats the peediddle out of me. I guess it's whatever the marketing can get you to believe. Once you believe it, often you find you are trying to justify it by gathering together a group that marches right along with your drummer. And when I drink beer I fart. roger

I do not have any of the short mags and really have no plans near term to buy one, but down the road I may. I feel the Win short mags will be around for a long time have market share and back seat the std win mag. I think the Rem short mags will hold but stay back seat.

Short mags been around for a long time, 350, 6.5, but the marketing is much better in this day and time, people are much better informed and more inclined to change. But that doenst mean I'm going to can my std mags either.

I think the win shorts mags were pretty well thought out, lots are being sold.

A lot of truth and opinion stated already. I'll throw in my opinion as well then. I guess I'm on the middle of the fence on this issue. I can see positives and negatives to both the short mags and the "traditional mags". I must admit that the sharp shoulder and lack of belt on the short mags are very appealing. Just about everything else I'll give to their predecessors. Personally I hope none of these cartridges go away.

Selection is GOOD!!!!

Well horse manure is good fertilizer, and there is some truth to these brash comparisons involving the WSMs and the bigger traditional cases.

It boils down to the fact that increasing capacity without increasing bore diameter is a relatively inefficient way to gain velocity and energy. Most of the WSMs can deliver 76 grs of water capacity with a seated bullet while the blown out H&H cases will give around 93 grains or so. So, a 22.4% increase in propellant capacity gives a 6.2% increase in velocity...on paper.

However, the WSMs are actually a BIT more efficient in burning powder, with a small but real 3% velocity advantage over the longer cases. The net a 3% velocity advantage to the big H&H blowouts...say 90 fps at 3000 fps. This may or may not be enought to write home about, so the shorties really are nipping at the heals of the bigger rounds that use a 3.6 inch COL.

I have a Kimber 8400 on order in 300 WSM. I've been waiting forever (since SCI, anyway) and have now been promised delivery in the next two weeks. Will this rifle kill better than my old 30.06 or 300 WM? Probably not. But it IS one hell of a nice rifle package, with a cartridge capable of sticking around for the long haul. After handling the rifle at sci, I just had to have one. They are incredible rifles, and balance like few other hot 30's I;ve ever handled. Now if I could only take delivery and start working up loads...

Bill