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This deer season I shot 2 different animals, on the same day with the Federal factory 150gr Triple shock X bullet. Both animals were shot at 80 to 85 yards, but the terminal performance was drastically different. First a wild pig, about 125 pounds. Shot right behind the shoulder, the ig stood up on its hind legs and fell over, kicked a time or two and that was it. Internal damage was about right for an X bullet, no blood shot meat, but good lung damage. Next a whitetail deer doe. Shot just behind the shoulder at a slight angle. At the shot the deer took of, and ran about 60 yards, hit the ground a kicked a second or two. Inside the deer was some of the most damage I have ever seen. I have never seen a heard so "blown up". Only the bottom tip was still intact. The lungs looked like they had been filled with C4. There was massive bloodshot damage at entrance and exit. [The bullet did not hit anything before the deer]. Same ammo from the same box, shot on the same day, fron the same gun, at the same distance, on similar sized amimals... Which just goes to show you that it is hard to judge performance with just a shot or two... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | ||
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Pig skin is tough. Deer skin is pretty soft. All you need to do past the skin penetration is deflect off a bone and you're into a whole new ball game. | |||
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The skin on a 125lb pig is not that much tougher than deer skin DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Was the pig a boar or a Sow? If it was a boar then you shot through his "shield" and that would cause a little bit of difference. And it would explain the differences in the 2 animals... And I beg to differ on pig hide and deer hide being near the same. Every pig I have ever seen was tough as hell to skin and get the hide off. I can get the hide off a deer in about 3-4 hard tugs with no knife cutting...Or the easiest is to just put a hook though him and attach it to a ATv and pull, he jumps right out of his skin. A wild Boar, HAH! give me about an hour and 2-3 sharp kinfes. THey are tough... | |||
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Brando and OXO With all do respect, even a boar at 125 lbs will not have a "shield". I have shot a lot of pigs, and I butcher and keep the meat on all of them. At about 225 lbs the "shield" starts to become apparent. I have killed some pigs at 250 to 300 lbs where the "shield" was 1/2" to 3/4+" thick. Some of them are as stiff as a piece of 3/4" plywood. This was not the case here. This pig did not have a "shield". I cannot explain the difference in bullet performance/damage. I was suprised at the difference, which is why I am reporting it... I will shoot some more animals with this ammo and report on the results. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I have cleaned smaller pigs with some stout shields, one was around 140 and it was a tuff fugger! Thats the only thing I could think of why you would have a difference in bullet damage. Otherwise if they was both good shots into tissue and didnt hit any bone I dont see why it would have been such a huge difference. | |||
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Two different animals, two different shots....as easy as that. The deer shot may have centered a rib and that rib then became shrapnel, so many variables, most important thing is that both animals were killed cleanly and quickly. Need hundreds of a sample to gather conclusive evidence, one thing is for sure, weird things can happen when shooting live game, no matter the bullet or cartridge.... | |||
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Two shots are not a enough to be a fair test. After about 25 more of each a trend "may" start to show. Remember, forgivness is easier to get than permission. | |||
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I'm convinced a high percentage of the "monolithic expanding" bullets (like the TSX) don't expand, but pencil through. Have seen similar results, good and bad, since I started using them in the 90's, including one un-opened TTSX I recovered last year. Stands to reason these type of bullets are more vulnerable to not opening since they rely on a small hollow point to initiate expansion. Any dedicated varminter, if they use hollow points, will have seen similar wonkiness using standard hollow points. Some people will tell you an un-opened bullet retrieved from a dead animal is not a failure. That sort of reasoning is beyond me personally... if something absolutely does not do what it's designed to do, it's a failure.  | |||
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Not argueing with your statement as I would prefer adequate expansion also, however, penciling and leaving an exit is preferable to the bullet breaking up in the animal, shedding the jacket and no exit wound. I think the manufacturers have a difficult balancing act. | |||
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Images taken from apost by Gerard of GSC.     | |||
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I couldn't agree more, that's why I switched to A-Frames.  | |||
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Must be just a difference in physiology and/or a fluke. I've been using 308 TSX ever since they switched from the X in everything from 308 to 300RUM and haven't seen anything that I would call bullet failure. At the higher velocity of the RUM I have seen substantial tissue damage but that's to be expected and at least they hold together and don't shed jackets, etc. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I tried Barnes X bullets for a while and got variable results.......now I use Nosler Partition or Northfork bullets for tough animals (elk and African game). I will also use Nosler Acurabonds on deer or antelope. These bullets give me predictable results and I don't worry about "what may happen" when I pull the trigger. | |||
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I agree, which is why I'm right back where I started, using Nosler Partitions... | |||
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Non expanding bullets that are pointed are famous for tumbling. Not for a minute do do I believe that they will track staight through point on. Rounds nose solids always tumbled at some point in their penetration path , pointed bullets are much more prone to tumbling than round nose _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Last time I checked, hollow points ARE expanding bullets... | |||
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I'm a huge fan of the TSX and TTSX. Have had an instance or so on smaller deer (150lb and smaller doe) at 115yrds and less w. 300RUM loaded hot that looked like the TSX wasa FMJ -- but that, IMHO is due more to the 300RUM velocity than the expected application of the round. FWIW ligheter skin game I now use Accubond, Interbond, BT's every once in a while. If I were to NEED a partition -- for the dollars spent I would rather go TSX or TTSX. Not taking away from the proven history of the the Partition, but I do feel the Barnes TSx n TTSX offer an edge over the Partition. End of the day, I'm glad we have all these fantastic boooolits to choose from. Just dont like the price tag. I say that as a shooter!!! I'm not a guy who shoots 50rds of a bullet and loves it. I like to SHOOT!!! And SHOOT some more. THats whay I say for deer and even Elk no need for Partition or TSX -- Accubonds in 30-06AI will do the job.  | |||
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You pig skin is not that tough. By the way pulling the skin off the animal has to do with the structure of the fascia tissue and how it attaches to the muscle tissue. The ease at which the skin comes off the animal is a complete different issue than the ability of a projectile to penetrate hide and fascia tissue Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Last time I checked, you have complained about X bullets not expanding and "penciling through" so make up your mind are they expanding are or they not? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Ahh, i gotta love the old internet experts, go over to 24hourcampfire and talk to JJ Hack (an african PH) about how many TSX's have "penciled through" he's seen literally hundreds shot with the TSX and says in his opinion they are the best bullets made today. I have also seen a couple of dozen dead animals from them and no penciling through or any other junk, go figure..... | |||
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micheal458 tested spitzer non expanding bullets here and they most assuredly tumbled none "penciled" through anything. Nothing unexpected here  http://forums.accuratereloadin...941098821#9941098821 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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For 308 Win, just give me a 150 or 165 gr Interlock, Gameking, or hot-cor for deer and hogs. No premium bullets are needed at 308 velocities. Those animals react better to standard cc bullets. JMO. | |||
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Scott.........+1 | |||
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and +2 | |||
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Yes but for many of us are favorite deer and pig areas are lead free... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have no way of knowing what actually happened, just like the rest of the respondents in this thread.  My best CONJECTURE is that it had to do with the differences in what the bullets struck.  One hit a shoulder bone, then lungs. That could have been something like it hitting a piece of thin plywood, then a bag of plastic peanuts...a hard, not too thick surface which is relatively brittle, and then an area which is a pulp of mostly gases and some very thin, diffused material. Once the hard surface is compromised, the bullet whips right through it. Then, in the pulp, it meets very little resistance so retains its form as it existed when the bullet exited the hard surface. That is a guess, of course, but I can visualize it happenening.  The second bullet, which struck the deer's heart, MAY have struck when the heart was just about to contract and send a fairly large volume of heavy liquid (blood) throughout the deer...at that point the liquid volume of the heart would be relatively large and not diffused much at all. So, the second animal may have been (to the bullet) something like shooting a canteloupe or a water baloon. I think you all probably can recall what it is like to shoot a milk jug full of water...everything blows up. This second bullet may have, in effect, hit a full milk jug...just a smaller one, full of blood instead of milk. Well, that's a possible "theory".  As someone else mentioned, ultimately what we know for sure from such comparisons is "Different shots act differently." We can only guess as to why, with all the uncontrollable variables at hand. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Confucius says: weird things happens at high velocities. Confucius also says: He who has a full freezer should not bitch about bullet performance. Sorry for the sarcasm; couldn't help myself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If the 270 won't do it the .338 will, if the 338 won't I can't afford the hunt! | |||
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When I finish the in progress 308 I have now, the first thing down the tube is going to be TSX 130 grain bullets at ~3000fps. Should be a good deer load. DW | |||
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