I have noticed That deer sized game hit w/ expanding bullets often tend to fall at impact. More so w/ higher velocity rounds such as Magnums and easy expanders. I would like to discuss your opinions on shock inside animals.

I have shot many many deer behind the shoulders and they fell at impact but, alot of times the spine was not injured visably. I believe that the shock of the hit is enough to temporarily paralize them animal when the bullet travels right under the spine through the lungs.

Do you think this is what results in an animal falling at impact when hit behind the shoulders?

Seems logical.

Reloader

quote:

I have shot many many deer behind the shoulders and they fell at impact but, alot of times the spine was not injured visably. I believe that the shock of the hit is enough to temporarily paralize them animal when the bullet travels right under the spine through the lungs.

Do you think this is what results in an animal falling at impact when hit behind the shoulders?

I've seen the same thing...with a fast expanding bullet passing close to the spine. I think your assumptions are correct.

Alert, (on me)

Internal Ballistics = inside the gun
External Ballistics = between gun and target
Terminal Ballistics = at and after impact

Just keepin' you guys honest.

Seemingly inexplicably, some apparently identical shots with apparently identical bullets will result in instantly taking the animal from its feet, while others will result in an animal that runs.

There has been a recent theory circulating that the difference lies in whether, at the instant of impact, the heart/vascular system is at systolic or diastolic (sp?) phase, ie, is the heart valve closed and vascular pressure at maximum, or is the valve open? The theory goes that if blood pressure is at maximum, then the shock of bullet impact causes such a spike in blood pressure that the animal is rendered unconscience, kinda like being K.O.'ed by a roundhouse punch. On the other hand, if the heart valve is open and vascular pressure can be released, then there's no spike in pressure to the brain and the animal remains conscience.

Personally, I don't buy it.

I think that it's just that sometimes they "do" and sometimes they "don't", but that the greater the bullet energy and the more appropriate the expansion (relative to the depth and location of the vital organs), the more likely an animal is to drop on the spot.

Some hunters are particulary fond of tracking terminally wounded game and don't like their quarry to fall on the spot, so they use very expensive bullets that resist expanding until they have passed mostly through the vitals, and thus leave a "good blood trail" to assist in the secondary sport of game recovery.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Some hunters are particulary fond of tracking terminally wounded game and don't like their quarry to fall on the spot, so they use very expensive bullets that resist expanding until they have passed mostly through the vitals, and thus leave a "good blood trail" to assist in the secondary sport of game recovery.

Can you be more specific as to where the bullet and it's fragments hit?

Gidday guys,

The question of whether an animal drops at the shot is most often whether the nervous system has been damaged/upset. Brain and spine are obvious nerve centres but there are others with the most important to us as hunters being in the hilar area inside the chest.

This area also contains the blood vesels and airways leading to the heart and lungs. If a shot is placed close enough to this area with a reasonably fast expanding projectile upset to the nervous system will occur resulting in unconsciousness. As the lungs and heart are also in this area they are generally damaged/destroyed and the animal dies of hemoraging before regaining consiousness.

This is why the more conventional bullets (corelocts, ballistic tips, hotcors etc) are such devastating killers and are to be prefered in non magmun calibres.

You only need premium bullets when magnums are used or the game you hunt can bite back as the conventional bullets may not reach this area at the higher velocities or penetration is prefered above all else.

This is my experience anyway.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

In this general area Savage.



The bottom of the Back bone tends to be down just alittle lower than the issustration. You know, they have that ridge on the bottom.


Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Hamish:
Gidday guys,

The question of whether an animal drops at the shot is most often whether the nervous system has been damaged/upset. Brain and spine are obvious nerve centres but there are others with the most important to us as hunters being in the hilar area inside the chest.

This area also contains the blood vesels and airways leading to the heart and lungs. If a shot is placed close enough to this area with a reasonably fast expanding projectile upset to the nervous system will occur resulting in unconsciousness. As the lungs and heart are also in this area they are generally damaged/destroyed and the animal dies of hemoraging before regaining consiousness.

This is why the more conventional bullets (corelocts, ballistic tips, hotcors etc) are such devastating killers and are to be prefered in non magmun calibres.YES YES

You only need premium bullets when magnums are used or the game you hunt can bite back as the conventional bullets may not reach this area at the higher velocities or penetration is prefered above all else.THIS IS KNOWLEDGE! RIGHT ON

This is my experience anyway.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

roger

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
In this general area Savage.



The bottom of the Back bone tends to be down just alittle lower than the issustration. You know, they have that ridge on the bottom.


Reloader

I started a topic a while ago here on knock down blows from bullets. There was not a lot of agreement with my thesis that sometimes the impact of a bullet will knock the wind out of an animal just like what happens in fighting or football. Of course the animal is also bleeding and sometimes it does not get up when it comes too if the blood pressure drops enough.

I came up with this idea because a number of animals have got up on me and ran and then fell again to stay. They were all hit in the lungs or heart.

Sometimes when an idea is suggested it goes thru the ordeal that Schoepenaour described. I am not bent out of shape on this at all and maybe it will come up again and the idea will get recognition.

That picture I provided has a bow tie just back from your hit. Thats where I hit a large buck with a .270 140 Ballistic Tip going at 2800 when it struck the animal. I think that fragments of the bullet hit the deers spine. The bullet shattered and did not exit. The animal fell at the shot and then stood after a moment and then it was dispatched with another shot.

So sure they can get knocked down due to nerve damage or perhaps the wind getting knocked out of them. In any case it does happen.

I agree. I have seen many deer hit with high velocity centerfire rounds behind the shoulder with no visible trauma to the spine, drop and not move. I also agree that you cannot count on this happening, however, I do believe it happens more frequently as velocity goes up and bullets get softer (with everyting else being equal and the old caveat that the bullet gets inside to vitals w/ good shot placement). What I am not saying is that this is a more reliable way to kill game under all conditions than a fat, controlled expansion, slow, etc... bullet. I typically use a stout bullet and try and get at least one shoulder. In my opinion, this is the best way to anchor game, however can spoil some meat.

-Lou