I was at the range today with a 270 Win and a 270 WSM. I wanted to see for myself if the 200 fps advantage that the 270 WSM shows in the factory specs is for real or not.
I have 2 rifles that are near identical in specs, both have 24 inch barrels and identical scopes. I loaded the ammo with the same bullets, and the same powder out the the same can, even used the same brand of brass and primers. The loads were:

270 Winchester (Beretta Mato)
140 Accubond
60.0grs RL-22
WW Brass
Fed 210M Primer
Best group 1" @ 200yds

270 Winchester Short Mag (Kimber 8400)
140 Accubond
66.0grs RL-22
WW Brass
Fed 215M Primer
Best Group 1 1/2" @ 300 yds

To minimize any other differences I shot 1 immediately after the other so it would be on the same target at the same time of day over the same chronograph. Temperature was around 60deg F, 5-10mph wind.

Average Velocity for the 270 winchester = 3063fps
Average Velocity for the 270 WSM = 3259fps

196fps differerence or very close to 200fps.

Note these are both Maximum loads in these rifles and may be too hot in yours. Always reload carefully. I believe that RL-22 is an excellent powder for both rifles and so this comparison is a somewhat valid one. The 270 Winchester is a great Cartridge, the 270 WSM is a great Cartridge 200fps faster.........DJ

Put the results in the Ballistics Calculator.

Used a BC of .496 (.277 140 grn. Accu.)

Drop (inches) 300 yd 400 yd

270 win (3063 fps) 6.2" 18"

270 WSM (3259 fps) 5.4" 16"


I believe that's around .8" diff at 300 and 2" at 400. Man, I think I am going to run out and buy one right now.

You clearly can shoot alittle faster but, as you can see, you are not going to kill any more deer.

Load some 150s, I bet that velocity gap considerably closes in.

I am not trying to steal your thunder, just saying that it is not that much better.

Now if we realy want to shoot a stellar .277 round lets break out the 270 Weatherby Mags and compare. It makes me laugh every time I see that add (false adver.) about the 270 wsm out shooting the 270 weatherby mag. It will be a cold day in h^%^ before that ever happens.

Reloader

Ran it on the 150s. (BC=.481)


Range 300 400

270 win @ 3015 fps -6.5" -18.9"

270 WSM @ 3100 fps -6.1" -17.8"





Reloader

But reloader, its not just drop. In fact, for me I can deal with the flattness of a 270Win for any of my guns. Its also the fact the animal at 300 yards with be hit 200fps faster. Thats a pretty big energy delta between the two. And yes, I do see a difference in wounds with 200fps. I notice a big difference when comparing wounds of a deer shot with a 30-06 and a 300Win mag same bullet.

I like the 270WSM, cause it gives me the ability to shoot approx the same flattness with a heavier bullet.

As far as the Weatherby, yep, your right. It will win. Its the right gun for people who don't mind the freebore, and long action, and a belt.

Yup... I do see a difference in wounds also, and I thank god we have that extra 200 fps now the deer arent going to be "just dead", they are going to be "just really dead moreso than just dead, today dead"......... please spare me, when has a 270 winchester ever had a problem with deer?

Reloader, I thought about this test after our discussion about 270's and 130's going 3200. I ran a thread about 270's at 3200 and indeed a few others had acheived this velocity. However most of them were using longer barrels. I still am of the firm belief that 3200 in a normal length barrel is a very hot load - hotter than I care to shoot.
While at the range yesterday I could compare the two rounds in as close a test as possible i.e. same bullets, same can of powder, same day, same target, same chrono etc.. And again given that everything is equal the WSM is 200 fps better (well actualy 196 yesterday).
I haven't tried 150's myself but federal lists 150 Nosler partitions in their current premium loads in both rounds and shows the WSM to be 320fps faster in their 150 partition loadings.
If you are going to honestly test rounds against each other you need to have everything as equal as possible. It's unfair to shoot a 270 in a 26" barrel against a WSM in a 24 etc.. My lot of powder/primers might be slightly different than yours so with the same load we might get different results. Some chronographs may read to be slightly differently. So you can either do test like I did yourself or compare different factory loads from the same manufacturer, they should at least be loaded somewhat similarly.
So in closing You were right that you can sometimes get 3200 out of 130's in a 270, but I'm right in that the 270 is around 200fps faster all things being equal. If you want to disagree, disagree after you have loaded for a 270 WSM the same way you've loaded for your 270........DJ

Smallfry and Big country, the velocity diff. at 300 yards is only around 160 fps. That is not going to make too much of a diff. in the kill.



Dispaintless, you stand by your opinions, just as I do mine but, the fact is the 270 WSM is not that much better than the 270 win. The "budget minded" man would come out far better buying a 270 win. They are cheaper to reload and there is a huge supply of reloading components out there for the 270 win @ far better prices.



The question on the previous post was rather to trade or not I personally think the mod. 700 270 win was a far better gun than the Super shadow 270 WSM.



If you are like me, and buy guns all of the time just to try them out and see what kind of performance you can get from them, I would probably buy one but, not the super shadow. As for the budget minded hunter, he could go down to the local pawn shop and purchase a used 270 win mod 700 for around $230 and he would kill just as many deer just as "dead" as the 270 WSM would have done for him. He sure would save alot of money when buying factory shells or reloading his own too.



I am not trying to say that the 270 WSM is not a good rifle but, it is not that much better and I certainly wouldn't trade my 270 win for a super shadow in 270 WSM.



Reloader

Gentlemen



270 win is a perfect solution to an excisting problem



270WSM is a perfect solution to a non-excisting problem



I doubt there anyone out there than can shoot soo well that 1-2 inces will make a difference?



Advantages of 270 win is that you wind nice rifles in the caliber, brass and components are plenty in most galaxy's. Most bullets are designed to work in velocity from the 270 win.



Now, what real advantages does the WSM offer? Slightly shorter action, troublesome feeding, hard to find ammo, brass and dies in most part of the world that is costly than win. Seating bullets down the emgine room. Not to mention the barely 200 fps in performance



Cheers

/ JOHAN

I like the 270 WSM instead of a 270 Win if the rifle is to be used at long range.

When one is looking around for game and you can see far then why not load to bore capacity? The 270 WSM will shoot the same bullets faster. What's not to like about that?

It seems to me that there is some jealousy or unfounded animosity over the WSM's. Since the cartridges came out they have been a real hit it seems. They are just cartridges and really are a personal thing.

What counts more is the aiming and then the bullet.

Be happy.

Come on Savage99, we are just havin' fun.

Reloader

smallfry, have you never in your entire life ever lost a deer/elk/pronghorn/sika deer knowing you got a good hit, or it started a allout downpour and couldn't track. Or spent the entire day, or even two looking for a monster you know you hit in the lungs? I have with a 270win and 130gr bullet. I can't explain it. How in the world did he (11point) run thru the swamps hundreds of hards being hit thru both lungs? Almost all experienced hunters have lost deer. If you haven't, I will say your about an experienced hunter as a Nascar driver who never had a wreck. Will a WSM help any? Who knows. Maybe, probably not. Will 200fps make larger wound channels? You bet ya. Will it hurt? Nope.

I didn't lose that 11pt, but the meat was almost or partly ruined when I did find it as it was hot those two days.

Smallfry where is you velocity limit? I mean a 270Win is way overpowered. How about 130gr 2400fps, or maybe 30-30 velocities. Why use a 270win at all? What is you velocity boundry where a rifle is too slow for deer/elk/moose, whatever.

yep johan just as 90% of all the calibers are, including the Weatherbys. I just glad we have the luxury of having these problems. Come on, guys, shooting different guns is fun. Why be so boring.

I've always been able to get 3150 fps. out of the .270 Winchester, even with a 22" barrel, which is pretty close to the original 1925 specs of 3160 fps. for this cartridge, and I first started loading for the .270 Win. back in 1978.

So for maybe 100 fps. difference, I'll take the .270 Winchester over the .270 WSM. Greater magazine capacity, shorter barrel, better feeding, less recoil. For the type of animals you'd hunt with any sort of .270, you'd be just as well armed with the original version.

Good trade-off!

AD

I will always pick the .270 win, over the .270 wsm, if I need more power I will use a more versatile cartridge like the 7mm Rem Mag.

I LOAD 140 GRN IN MY 270 AND KILL ANY THING I CAN SEE
SAVE YOUR MONEY. I SEE NO PLACE FOR THE SHORT MAG IN MY SAFE . IF I WANT TO TEAR UP SOME MEAT I'LL JUST PICK UP THE 7MM.......AND 200 FPS IS NOTHIN TILL YOU GET WAY OUT THERE

Since in my observation the 400 fps difference between the .308 and the .300WinMag seldom results in a quicker kill at ranges most hunters are competent to thus is meaningless, then the 200 fps difference between the .270WSM and the .270Win is of only half the value. The only real advantage to the WSM is it's ability with the high BC 150 gr projectiles, but this is of no value to the averabe hunter.

Sure, there is usually more tissue destruction with higher velocity, that might translate to more meat destruction for those incompetent marksman who accidently hit the part that they wish to eat, but the lungs or heart ceases to function regardless how fast the bullet went through. With some very rapidly expanding bullets that shed a lot of fragment there is the occasional instant kill with the higher velocity cartridge but generally there is no difference on game.

Now for those who IMO place far too much emphasis on one extra round in the magazine, well if you have screwwed up with the first 3 rounds you will likely maintain this consistency with the next 1!

Reloader, I think we are mostly in agreement. The Winchester Super Shadow in my opinion has just about the butt-ugliest stock I've seen in a while but I'm sure some people will love it. I think the controlled round push feed is a cheap idea. Use a claw extractor or make it a push feed. I too would prefer a good 700 to it unless like me they were in a mood to try a new cartridge like the 270 WSM.
I don't think there is anything in the world wrong with the 270 Winchester, I have 3 of them and all shoot very well. But since I'm badly afflicted with the gun bug 200 fps to me is worth playing for. Heck most of my reloading revolves around getting the best accuracy along with that extra 75fps and no pressure signs that the right powder can give. If 200 fps wasn't a big deal to somebody we wouldn't have any magnums and all our guns would have 20inch barrels. Maybe it's just us gun cranks. I'll continue to use and shoot both.
I did a test at the range once using 9 different rifles in calibers such as 308,270,30-06, 7mm Mag, 300 Win Mag, Up to 375 H&H. I sighted them all dead on at 200yds. At 300yds (which I consider normal maximum hunting range) the drop for all 9 calibers was from 5.5" to 10" low at 300. It's pretty tough to hold more accurately than 4.5 inches at 300yds in the field. I usually plan to shoot dead on to 225 yds and still be able to hold on hair out to 300yd with any normal centerfire hunting cartrige over about 2500fps. So there isn't really all that much practical trajectory difference in cartriges from 243 Win to 375 H&H. What happens when they hit is a different story..........DJ

It's funny how a few of the 300 WSM proponents are against the the .27 bore version of the same cartridge .



I sort of like the concept of the .270 WSM . It's the only one of the recent cartridges that fills the bill of a specialized small caliber plains rifle for deer and 'lope without going totally off the deep end on over-bore capacity like such monstrocities as the 7mm RUM .



I don't yet own a 270 WSM since I have a good .264 that does the same thing except maybe a little better . But if I didn't already have the .264 I would be tempted.........

Now theres a gun to talk about, the ole' .264 Win Mag. I have never had any experience w/ the cartridge myself but, that .264 bullet in a 140 grner has about the best BC out there.

How do you like the ole' .264, I bet it is a flat shooter?

Is it hard to find components?

Reloader

Yea, Dispaintless, your right about that. I believe the truth is, if we all just had an ole' 30-06 we could take anything out there but, that would just kill this passion we have for our firearms.

Ya know, I am running out of places to stack em' and excuses to tell the wife but, I just cant wait to get my hands on a new caliber and buy some more reloading supplies.

I just bought a 25-06 and I have just about started on my loads. I have always been a fan of the bigger calibers on deer but, I believe this .257 at the right speed/bullet is going to be a good performer.

Reloader

Actually, smallfry, I shoot a 270win. I don't have WSM. Fastest I can acheieve without locking the brass up in two of mine are 3025fps. And thats with RL22 and 130gr bullet. I do know people that go a tad faster. But they are always pushing the limits. Like it gets sticky with summertime shooting. Or the primers are flat. I like a more dynamic load myself. One 270 only likes but loves 4064. And I am lucky to get 2890fps with 130 gameking but groups are outstanding.

My other hunter is a 308win. Which is what I take 90% of deer with. I have a 300RUM, but only take it moose hunting and have only taken it once. Too heavy and have turned it into a target rifle instead. So I usually take my mod 70 270win. And another is my 243win. Which take out occasionally, and used for 10 years when I was a kid. And lastly is my 30-06 7400 which has killed more deer than you can put in a railway car. I have to say I don't use anymore.

So I hope that answers your question. I know its ironic, that I defend the WSM. I just love new guns. I have some real nice hunting loads for all of my rifles and ready for a new one. And I do reload for a bunch of WSM shooters, and they just get some wonderful groups with my reloads. And they so easy to work up for. Very dynamic rifle.

As I said, will 200fps make a difference? Maybe, I doubt it, probably, no one can say. But it sure wouldn't hurt. And its fun finding out.

Another ironic thing, is I really am only interested in 270WSM. I have all I need in the .308 department. I think that the .277 market was one that was wide open.

If I only had a 30-06, or 308, I might be interested in the 300WSM.

Guys, it just fun and hobbies. There is no need for 90% of the cartidges out there. You could cover the need with a 22LR, 243Win, 30-06, and a 375HH.

The boring old argument, "fix for a nonexistent problem" can be said about any weatherby cartidge. But for some reason, they don't take any heat.

DJ:

In your comparison of the 2, 270's, "all things being equal", you forgot to mention the 6 grains of powder difference between the two. That can easily equate to 200fps. No matter, as I appreciate the fact you shot the 2 to see for yourself.

One of our shooting partners is about to receive a 223WSSM, we are very anxious to shoot it over the cronograph, and see if out performs the 22-250, or approaches the 220 Swift, as advertised, as we shoot those as well. If nothing else it will be fun. We will let you guys know the results.

Jerry

Jerry, I think its not because he didn't mention but the 270win with 60gr is compressed and one of the fastest loads out there. At least it is in my rifle. No more room for any more powder. But you don't reach compressed loads in a WSM mag for until 70gr or so. The volumn of powder a 270win holds is really out of his hands.

In a quality 270 win rifle w/ a 24" barrel or more, you should be able to get 3200fps w/ 130s and not show pressure signs.



Reloader

Big Country:

I doubt the 270 Wsm will have the case capacity of which you speak, in a short action. The bullets, especially the heavier ones will have to be seated too deep, negating that advantage. The 6 grains was not a case capacity issue in my mind, only a difference.

I am also one of the 3200fps guys with the standard case.

Jerry

I can't in mine in two rifles, and neither can anyone I witnessed. I have tried that out with H4351, RL22, and H1000, IMR4350, and not even close with 4064. And unfortately, 4064 gives tack driving accuracy, and lowest velocity out of the bunch. And if I tried that 60gr RL22 load this guy is shooting, the bolt would be heavy.



And yes, I have tried and was able to get more capacity out of a 270WSM case. 70gr is compressed, very compressed.



never get that muc powder into a 270win case

Big Country:

I believe the 60 grains of RL22 of which you speak is a load listed in the Alliant powder guide. If that sticks your bolt, maybe you should seat the bullets further back in the case. I can't get 70 grains of powder in the 270 Winchester either, about 60-61 grains of H4831 is all that will fit, and I don't use H4831. Heck I may have to build a WSM just to have one. After all, if a cartridge goes bang, it is worth having, LOL.

Jerry

Ya know what, I have no real use for the Short Mag Fad that is hitting the streets. 200 fps is not going to make or break if someone makes a poor shot and point blank range is how much different at 250 to 300 yds. HOWEVER......

I was at a gun shop earlier this week and picked up a Browning A Bolt that looked tempting and attractive. It was a short action and it just fit like a glove when you shouldered it.

Then I looked at the Caliber it was chambered in, and it was in a 270 WSM.

So on second thought, maybe I can find a use for that cartridge after all.....

If I really had my druthers I'd like to just see a 270/08 become tready and popular. Since I missed picking up a 260 when Browning was chambering them, I will just have to consider doing one in a 7/08.

With a nice rifle, maybe those Short mags aren't that bad after all!! LoL.

Cheers and good shooting.
Seafire

It may be max for alliant. I just know, its a compressed load for me. I like IMR4350 and 4064 for my 270win which is never compressed. I might pick up one of these WSM's someday. Maybe not. I just don't have any problems with more options. And have no intention of "educating" those young shooters they should only use older calibers. Isn't none of my business what a 16 year old would shoot. But I do enjoy the conversation.

Here is a listing of the maximum powder charge and velocity from several current reloading Manuals for the 270 Winchester and 130gr bullets:

Hogden 04 Annual Manual- 64.0C H1000 3025fps
Hornady 6th edition -RL-19 59.4,RL-22 61.3,H 4831 62.0, VV N-165 62.0 -3100fps
Vihtavuori 2nd ed N560 59.7, 3034
Lee 2nd Edition Mag-Pro 65.0c 3234
Speer #13 H1000 64.0C 3117
Barnes No 3 RL-22 60.0 3167, (with xlc bullet they list 9 over 3200)
Nosler 5th W760 54. 3158
Swift #1 RL-22 59.0 3149

I wonder why 6 out of 8 of these manual couldn't get 3200 fps out of 130's in the 270 Winchester? If you exclude the XLC bullet it's 7 out of 8. I think that 3200fps is the exception rather than the rule and for most normal 270's 3100 +(-) 50fps is more realistic -unless of course you have a 26" barrel etc.. Certainly several posters have gotten 3200 but even more reloaders including most of the major powder and component manufacturers think 3200 is a little too hot.........DJ

I just got me a VZ-24 270win with a 24" barrel, Federal 130gr premium went 3113fps, and 59gr's of H-450 did 3252fps with a 130gr Nosler.

I would probably check my chrony if I was you. Maybe borrow a quality one from a friend.

Federal 130gr premium specs 3050fps to 3060fps from 24" barrel. Your measuement, not spec.

Major, its fine. I hear ignorance is bliss.

One thing you can do to make your velocitys higher is modify the chrony for the photocells to be closer together. You might be able to get 4000fps by just taking an inch out.

Seriously, I have been there and done it. I swore I was getting 3500fps with 180gr in my RUM. Checked against an Oehler, and it was more like 3270fps. I called Shooting Chrony and they gave me another. Its more realistic now.

Also, I believe hornady to be optimistic on thier velocities. I checked out thier light magnums, and was off by 50 to 100fps. I rarely see people achieve thier velocities.

I have checked my Chrony against a Oehler 33, my readings were always slightly slower buy a few fps. This 270 barrel is just amazing fast, much more than any other barrel I have tested. One of my 30-06's is very slow, it happens.

After scanning all the posts on this thread I just couldn't keep myself from jumping in here....I've been a .270 user for over 27 years and after blowing the poopoolacaca out of many deer I'm thinking of slowing the 130's down to around 2700 fps. Never have shot any deer at over 250 yards--that was longest and next longest was 210 yards...most were less than 100 yards and the shortest was about 30 yards. This is just me, though...seems like the older I get the slower and heavier I get...seems to work for my bullets, too. Shoot whatever you shoot best!

DMCI*

7mm Dakota is a very nice caliber based on a 404, no need for any WSM. The Dakota also fits very nice in mauser action

/ JOHAN