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Due to some recent, hopefully tongue-in-cheek, discussions, I am curious about something. What are the parameters being used to determine when animals have evolved to a point where certain calibers/cartridges/bullet styles are no longer effective for cleanly killing the various species? Even the rocks don't last forever. | ||
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This.  Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | |||
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Love it! Kinda like my prairie dog with bandoliers. Max .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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Well what's odd is that we should actually require less ballistics capabilities from our cartridges based on what we are seeing in optics trends. The animals are obviously getting smaller because it is requiring larger scopes in terms of magnifications and objective diameters to take animals that used to be taken with fixed power and 3-9 scopes. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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I had been wondering some what about the scope issue. I just really hadn't wanted to get too concerned yet as the critters I hunt have not evolved far enough to realize that someone using fixed 6 power steel tube El Paso weavers can still see them. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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There was a time not so long ago when a 220-grain roundnose at 2100 from a Krag was considered the nuts for elk. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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60gns of subsonic rimfire lead ...  = D.R.T.   "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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The evolution has been substantial of course, and this evolution explains the use of more powerful cartridges and scopes. This evolving anmial is - of course - man. We used to get by with solid steel cars with simple pushrod engines, now we need twin overhead cams, composite parts and turbochargers. Wait, do we NEED them? We do if we want high performance with low emissions and excellent gas mileage. 400 hp cars used to get 8 mph, now they get over 20. All-steel cars killed a lot of people due to internal injuries, today's composite cars cushon the impact so that today far fewer are killed in high speed impacts. Been there. We used to have analog phones with hard lines, now we have cells. Do we NEED them? I say yes, for safety and better work efficiency and communication. Do we NEED higher power cartridges and scopes? I say yes if 'we' want to improve our chances of bagging game. A big advantage? Usually not, but the advantage can be real. This evolution of human needs is real, and usually an advantage. Otherwise it would not be "evolution". Of course anything can be taken to extremes, but it is not the game animals which have changed, it is our abilities to do more and our number of choices. Personally, I'd quit hunting if all I had available to use was a .22LR, a .30-06 and a .375 H&H under a 4X scope.... . | |||
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"Personally, I'd quit hunting if all I had available to use was a .22LR, a .30-06 and a .375 H&H under a 4X scope...." Now Tex, that's where you and I differ. I'd quit hunting if I couldn't get 'er done with a .22LR, a .30-06 and a .375 H&H under a 4X scope. One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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After going the full circle from newbie, through magnum-maniac I'm now only using obsolete and ineffective cartridges like 6,5x55, 8x57IRS, 9,3x62 and 404 Jeffery. Have plans for a 275 Rigby Rimless and a 333 Jeffery...  M | |||
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Add a shotgun and maybe a varmint gun and that sounds like a pretty sensible battery to me. | |||
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I first saw those in RSA in 2011. We used them to shot hogs a year later. My daughter shot one in the head. The pig fell over stiff as a board. And using iron sights!  "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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AH: That is awesome! You are blessed to have such a beautiful daughter & quite the huntress at that. What's the make/model of her rifle? Can't tell from the pic. Thanks for sharing. "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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AH, You've got to be incredibly proud of your little bunny there. You raised her right. My daughter hunts too!  There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Could it be that the hunters are getting older and less capable of seeing the game, thus requiring more magnafication? Let it not be said that human decline could be the bad guy. | |||
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I am almost 64 and my eyesight is as good as it ever was. No, just like with the obsolete/ineffective caliber concept, it is in many instances, todays "Hunters" reaching out to technology to make up for lack of experience and skill. Our society, and that includes hunters, has became enamored with instant gratification. Whether it is because people simply do not have the time to invest, or want to invest the time they have, they have embraced any technology they feel that will help them achieve their goal at the cost of not gaining actual experience. I have no problem with technology as long as it is used to enhance personal skills/abilities, I just don't like the concept of relying on technology to take the place of skills/abilities. It is an Old Folks concept. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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No one is forced to employ newer technology, one is free to use spears and arrows if they so choose. Some may take advantage of the latest in bow & arrow technology,where others may choose to use traditional-older world bow/arrow technology. Natives in Africa speared Cape buffalo, and chased down the ones in the wild herds that were trying to escape the tribesmen. However, tribes around the world became mighty impressed with the ease & performance of the modern centre fire rifles, as used by the various colonial occupying powers. Of course what some well skilled folk could regularly do with a 7x57, .303 British or .318WR, would often enough get the novice hunter killed if trying the same thing. People might shun or criticise those who use Bows or smaller bore/lower power rifles to successfully take large game, However people who completely miss elephants with their modern Bigbore SxS from just a few feet, just proves that skilled & knowledgable shot placement, trumps calibre & energy figures. One chooses the type & method of launching their lethal projectiles, be it by hand thrust, tensioned string, or old or modern forms of gunpowder, together with various forms of sighting systems - if one so pleases. all depends,...how less challenging[easy?] do people really want hunting to be? | |||
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Bingo, or as someone else stated, " using technology to replace skill instead of enhancing skill". Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I can personally recount a truck load of big game who, if they could, would dispute the myth of black powder cartridges not being effective. I have yet to see any bullet from 30-06 down...or up for a good ways, penetrate a deer, antelope or elk lengthways. My 45-90 has done it numerous times, my 40-70 on several occasions and my ancient 43 Mauser a couple times, and the game animals piled up where they stood. I'd call that effective. Obsolete, only in popularity. Ineffective...evidently only in your inexperience with them. If a person doesn't want to fool with the BP cartridges, I certainly understand that. Or, if they can't hunt close enough to the game for them to be effective then by all means resort to smokeless. On the really big critters that will kill you I'll agree as to their not being as effective as smokeless cartridges. Several in their BP guise were not considered adequate for Africa but after the transition to smokeless became fine dangerous game cartridges. The 500 BPE is the first to come to mind. As for "the massive chunks of lead the buffalo hunters were throwing" I would suggest a perusal of Frank Mayer's book. After the rush of the earliest years and 50's being used the 40's and 45's took over very quickly. From the middle to end of the running days the 40's were about all that was used. A 370 to 400 gr. bullet in a 40 cal. is not considered massive, it is a normal bullet for a single shot. What's the standard load for a 416 Rigby and it is a magazine rifle for the most part? Peep sights go back to the days when the crossbow was state of the art. Sometimes an experienced and skilled hunter got killed using the 318 Westley Richards. Taylor accounts that also. In this instance I am going to have to climb into the canoe of Crazyhorse. That may be because he and I are of the same generation. However, I see way too many young hunters who do rely on technology to make up for woodscraft and hunting skill. It hasn't been 5 years ago I was told by an early 30-something hunter that, "you might get lucky and get close enough to a deer to kill one with a recurve....." What the ?. Might? Then his partner made the comment that "the 30-30 just isn't good enough for deer anymore". Ahhh...the voices of experience. According to the attitudes of those types, and they are legion, it is a miraculous work of God that the northern European ever got over the Appalachians...or survived to get TO the Appalachians. Technology is fine...until it is depended upon to make up for: Inexperience, inability and knowledge. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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Very pleasant thread, obviously on a topic we are all fond of. I think we can agree that slow and sure beats fast and sloppy in the game fields as a general principle that holds up over time and technological innovation. Grenadier, I have to take some issue with your characterization of the black powder cartridges. The best discussion of mid-Victorian ballistics and dangerous game that I know of is in Baker's "Wild Beasts and Their Ways." He was there in the thick of the hunting and a careful observer of terminal ballistics. He figured real DG loads started with a .577 3-inch with six drams of powder and a 650-grain hardened bullet and went up from there. No silly "Expresses" with their fragile, light-for-caliber Scottish deer bullets for him. On the other hand, Baker went to extremes with rifles that spun him around with the recoil -- the kind of thing Selous said nearly ruined his nerves for life. And Selous was awfully fond of his .461 Gibbs BPC Farquaharson, which I beleive gave similar ballistics to the larger .45 Sharps cartridges. There were some capable chamberings for the big mean stuff prior to the smokeless era; it's just that a scientific understanding of the relative ballistics of the period was only perceived by a few close observers. Fortunately, a handful of such men took time to note details of field performance, and they tended to be men whose actual hunting experience in the fields of Asia and Africa will never again be duplicated. So to sum up, there were many, many black powder cartridges that did not deliver the goods, but there were some good ones that did. Their smokeless descendants were just better at about everything. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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You can blame it on SCOPES. Scopes allow hunters to see better, shoot better and shoot FARTHER. Take the 30/40 Krag, with a 220gr bullet. It is still an excellent cartridge for elk with an iron sighted rifle. However not many people buy a 30/40 Krag, when they can get a SCOPED 300 Mag. Its called Progress... However, the 30/40 Krag with its 30 cal 220gr bullet, was also considered a long range cartridge back in IT'S day vs the 40+cal black powder rounds. It was Progress it its day... One of these days we will be using Plasma Phase rifles in the 40 Watt range...  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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It's rough when you just have a scope but no iron sights .Nothing to wipe with your thumb !   | |||
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"Vit vay did der elk go?"   | |||
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I have a question about that 60 gr., 22LR load. First off I believe this is the first time I have seen one. Will that stabilize with the twist of a "regular" 22 rifle? DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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None of the animals I've shot with my handgun are actually dead, since I didn't use a big enough magnum! Where I grew up we were required to use 12 gauge slugs and somehow they seemed to work just fine ... | |||
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Yes, it will. I shoot them out of my Marlin 60 (won't cycle the action, but ground hogs usually don't need a second shot) as well as from my handed down Wards Western Filed that my Dad got in the 50s. I've even shot them out of my Ruger Single Six (not recommended) just for giggles. They will stabilize in a rifle barrel, but not pistol/revolver. They're sub-sonic, so they could be suppressed, if you're willing to spend the bucks on the proper permits. Doug Wilhelmi NRA Life Member | |||
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Wow. Suwannee Tim | |||
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Someone rang ...? Why, it's Grandpa's hand-me-down "custom" Krag.  It does love those 220 RN slugs @ about 2100fps. Accurate too, even with its "ancient" iron-sight technology - in this case, a Lyman barrel-banded front sight (w/ white bead) mated to a Lyman receiver aperture sight.  Way, way back in the day, seems I remember history tellin' me we "civilized" some Philippine slopeheads with the ol' Krag.  Still good enough now for what passes for takable game in the lower 48. Thinking of trying it out on feral hogs ... We'll see. | |||
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Dulltool17 beat me to it, but I agree. This Aguila 60gn subsonic load (900fps?) can be accurate, depending on the rifle and if you understand the trajectory produced by the .22 Short case. This particular Aguila .22 load has been around a while. Back before the great "Ammo Panic," say 4 years or so ago, when .22 ammo of all types was still abundant on the shelves, I scooped two 500-rd packs of this stuff from the regional Cabela's, and then attempted to find out which of my .22s liked it. Some rifles are finicky with it. Neither of my CZs will shoot it tighter than pie-plate @ 50yds and there are keyholes in the target from the tumbling. On the other hand, the old-school stuff, like the Remington 5-"teeners," seems to group it well. At 50yds, both my Rem 510 TM & 514 shoot excellent groups with it, which is the max distance I'd use it for anyway. My All-Weather Ruger 77/22, which is finicky with just about everything else in standard .22 ammo, likes it. Don't know what the twist rate is in the factory tube. I got the rifle back in the early '90s. But it was loaded with Aguila's 60gn Big Lead Turd when the coon showed up. | |||
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I love the old Krags. My grandfather had one in 6.5x55 Krag and it is my fathers now. I will see if he thinks it is time for me to get it soon  Many years ago I shot a deer at 400 meters with it using the open sights. | |||
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Nick, that is a just a wonderful old Krag you have there. The single fault I can find with a Krag is simply weight. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Nick, sir, THAT is a beautiful rifle. Nothing equals traditional sporters for elegance. Pre-WWI Johann Peterlongo, Innsbruk in 9 X 71 Peterlongo. Think 35 Whelen on steroids only 20 years sooner than the Whelen.   DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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....and I forgot to thank those who replied to my question regarding the 22LR load with the 60 gr. bullet. IF they ever become available again I am going to try some. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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I am in agreement with Bill on this topic. The irony of the advent of cordite and nitro powders is that the cast bullets of the black powder era were not tough enough to withstand the high velocities which nitro powders are capable of producing. This, in turn, prompted the development of tougher, copper and steel jacketed bullets which will upset (mushroom) at the higher speeds. In fact, they MUST have high velocities to perform properly! Nowdays, we have monos which pretty much keep their shape at any speed! So, as far as punching a big hole through the boiler room, the nitro solids don't perform that much greater than the BPE cast bullets. Now, there is a better chance that you could get the faster solid through to break the off leg or shoulder, but no animal dropped dead from a busted leg. It is the hole in the heart or lungs or brain that kills and the BPE rifles are very capable of that. Of course, in the case of dangerous game, I would prefer a NE rifle in the event of a charge, but today, that is what the PH is there for  | |||
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Thanks, Bill. Actually, I've handled a number of Krag rifles in military dress and, yes, they're weighty. As Gramp's Krag is housed in a custom Schnabel stock, weight really isn't an issue though. In fact, it points, balances & handles quite well. "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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Wow, that's a sweet Krag right there, 9.3. Always a treat to see a well-done "sporter" Krag, as I've seen too many of them in "Bubba-rized" condition at gunshows. "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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Welll....thank you very much, except that it isn't a Krag, it's a Johann Peterlongo Mauser. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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Oops, my bad. Kept looking @ the stock in the second pic. Didn't see there was no Krag side-loader magazine in the first one. Still, a nice Mauser there! "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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Half of all the game I've taken over the last 25 years has fallen to this "obsolete" pre-war 16ga/8X57IR drilling w/OLD 4X Hensoldt 3-post scope. I'd give up hunting if I couldn't hunt with these.  | |||
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