Seeing as how the 8X57 was the first "high intensity" version of the 7X57, and is therefore the father (or perhaps grandfather) of all .473" head based cartridges, and the 8X57 when loaded to European (or perhaps a better term is "adult") pressure levels is the equal to or perhaps superior (with bullets > 200grs.) to the 30-06, shouldn't the 8X57 be the "benchmark" by which all "medium bore" cartridges are measured by?

Add to this the 8mm WSM, (AKA 325WSM) 8X68S and 8mm Rem Mag, what large game can't be effectively "handled" that wouldn't require something in the 375 or greater catagory?

Any of the 8mm "mags" would propel a 180gr Nosler BT @ over 3150fps for flat trajectory, plus a 250gr Woolleigh @ 2600fps would handle anything short of Cape Buffalo.

The good ol' 8X57 or perhaps an 8mm-06 loaded to 60k would do a fine job on anything in between up to and including Elk sized game.

An 8X57 will easily attain 2800fps+ with the 180 BT, add 100fps for the 8mm-06, another 100fps for the Ackley Improved version.

If you need flatter trajectory, go to a 7mm cartridge like the 280 Rem loaded to 62K @ 3150fps w/140gr bullets.

30 cal is the real orphan here, it does OK, but it is mediocre.

PS: The "limited choice" in 8mm bullets is a myth if one is willing to do a little looking. Bullet weights range from 108gr plinkers to 250gr Woodleighs.

The 8mm is good but so are similar bores. Due to world history .30 bore is popular instead of others.

In general the bore should get bigger as the game gets bigger and 7mm is big enough for the common big game animals.

I was thinking about getting another Kimber Montana and as you know they make them in 8mm now. I think my next one will be a .30 or 7mm. I just don't need the recoil.

The factor that matters the most in game hunting is hitting what your aiming at. The cartridges that help us hit where we are aiming have moderate recoil, flat trajectories and minimal wind drift.

The popularity of larger bores goes back to the origins of smokeless powder, fouling and black powder cartridges. Here the 32-40 was optimum and thats an 8mm or so.

The major factor was mentioned above. The 8mm bore would work today but it was on the wrong side of history.

I love the 8mm.
The 8x68s is king of the medium cartridges that can fit inside a standard mauser action.

Every household should have opne.

Cheers,

André

I am truely a fan of the 8mm and I have at least 6 maybe seven in that caliber.You did quirey about it being the most versitile. There isn't any game in North America that can not be taken with an 8mm of one sort or another. The same can be said for the cartrdges in the 30 caliber clan. For what it is worth the 30 has the edge in "versitility" mainly because of the vast selection of bullets available in that caliber. Had the designers of the 03 copied the cartridge as well as the rifle I'm sure it would be an 8mm USofA today. roger

I have an 8x57, which is scoped, and has a Timney trigger, and which is a very respectable hunting rifle. It's a very capable round. At very safe pressure, I get 2750 fps from a 175 grain bullet. No elk is going home to brag to the wife and kids that those don't bother him.

The one "nit" I would pick with it is that the 8mm doesn't get into good BC territory until bullets get up around 200-225 grains. At that weight, the case capacity of the 8x57 just isn't enough for optimum efficiency.

The 30 cal hits that territory about 180 grains, and the case capacity is fine for that.

The 8mm really needs an '06 size case, or maybe a little larger, to really perform to the max.

The 7mm bullet is arguably a better match to the 57mm case than the 8 is.

quote:

I love the 8mm.
The 8x68s is king of the medium cartridges that can fit inside a standard mauser action.

Every household should have one.

I drooled when I saw this:
Marholdt Mauser 98 Custom 8x68mm

I agree with Andre and Rodger! The 8mm is well worth any proper effort and will kill just about anything. I must add that I'm biased though; my first center fire was a 8x57JS and I've got an 8x68s in the works. Based on my experiences with this caliber, I can't say enough good things about them! Though we all have personal preferences, I cannot think of a legitimate reason for a rifle guy to pass over a 8mm in leau of a 7mm or .30 caliber. Everybody aught to have one!

"The one "nit" I would pick with it is that the 8mm doesn't get into good BC territory until bullets get up around 200-225 grains. At that weight, the case capacity of the 8x57 just isn't enough for optimum efficiency."
===========================================
That's my point on larger bores for larger game. The 8X57 is really not in the running as optimum for any purpose sorry to say.

When looking at long range deer class rounds the 7mm bore gives a flat trajectory and minimal wind drift with adequate bullet performance. Even the .30 cal lags behind it when recoil is factored in.

Now at woods ranges almost any reasonable cartridge from 6.5 mm up to .45 will work.

All that said I have a cute 8X57S in the works. It's a 20.5" carbine 22f by Brno. Can't wait to take it for a walk in the woods.

"Is 8mm the most versitle medium bore"?

NO.
I would give that honor to the 9,3x62 in bolt rifles, and the 9,3x74R in doubles.
A good, scoped, double in 9,3x74R just might be the best all round medium bore on the planet.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
"Is 8mm the most versitle medium bore"?

NO.
I would give that honor to the 9,3x62 in bolt rifles, ...

I completely agree. For me the breakdown is as follows:

varmints: .223

game weighing 300 pounds and less: 30-06 or .270

game weighing 300 pounds to 1500 pounds: 9.3 x 62

game weighing 1500 pounds or more: .470 or .500

In this lineup there just isn't a gap between the .30 cals and the 9.3 that needs to be filled. However, I would not object to using an 8x68 on deer.

For what it's worth, Brno had this to say about the wide variety of chamberings for their ZG-47 rifles: "the one that can be called universal and is best recommended is the calibre 8x64S. Its characteristics are high velocity, outstanding accuracy and great stopping power." The 8x64 is of course very similar to the 8mm-06. I've never owned one, only 8x57s, but I think they have a point, the 338-06 would also be close to an optimal all around cartridge.

There is a lot of truth to what denton has said. You need a little more case capacity to push those 8mm 200-225 gr bullets (with a decent BC) to 2900 to 3100 fps. You pay for that in extra recoil. The 270 & 7mms will push a much lighter bullet that is still enough for deer sized game to those velocities with a lot less recoil. Thats why the 270's and 7mm's are so popular. The 30 's will push heavier bullets (180gr range) to those velocities and are very effective on elk & moose etc with more recoil than the 7mm's but less than the larger calibres.That covers a large percentage of North American game and a good bit of game anywhere. That explains why the 30's are as popular as they are. When you go to calibres above that you start getting into very specialized rifles. Usually you are looking for a calibre that will put a lot of energy into heavy and or dangerous game and possibly at extended ranges. 338's,358's,9.3mm's,375's and up all have cartridges capable of that but with lots of recoil. The larger 8mm cartridges certainly aren't going to win any popularity contests but whether you like them or not they are pretty respectable performers with good bullets. I will have to admit I don't have much good to say about the 8mm Rem factory loads. With good handloads the 8mm rem or the 8x68 will do pretty much anything a 338 win or 340 wby will do. That is not a shabby group.The 323 Hollis,8mmPMM and the 8mm/300 Win are 8mm wildcats that would fit in that group as well.

I really like the 8MM, the 8MM RM with the right bullet will take, cleanly, any NA game, well, any game right up to the larger DG. It would take them too, just not what I would choose to use!

I think that if you looked at useage, at least in NA, as a factor in "most versatile", the 338 wins that contest. It may not be much better than the 8MM RM, but it is much more widely used and accepted. Americans just seem to have this "thing" about metrics, the majority of Americans, at least.

I have an 8 mm custom rifle that a member here sold to me and am very happy with it. It is an 8x57 JS and it shoots beautifully. I have shot the 30-06 in the past (in India) and like it a lot as well. I also like the 303 and if I could find myself a good sporter in that caliber, I would definitely buy it.

The best thing to do would be to buy and try one of each available and enjoy all of them.

Best wishes, and good hunting!

While I like the 8mm in the 8 x 57 and own 4 or 5 of them also, I do have a problem seeing where Wildcat here calls the 30 caliber and orphan.

I don't use the 30/06 much because everyone has one, and it is fun to play with all the other cartridges out there. However I am a firm believer in the old adage, "when in doubt use a 30/06".

With the bullet selection available, plus if you want a little more bullet diameter than 30 has to offer, then there exists the 338 bore. Both are American made and designed, and to let it be the truth at my house, that Is not a bad thing!

As for the 325 WSM, my opinion is "Big friggin deal". If I had to have something like that, I'd be served just as well with a 8/06 or an 8/08, which brings us right back to the 8 x 57, so what did we need that cartridge. I can see it as a wildcat, because wildcat's appeal is something off the beaten path.

Personally I will stick with what has been around for a while. They seem to have anything anyone would ever need, covered.

cheers
seafire

Necking the '06 up to 8mm gives the same velocity and energy increase as adding 10% to the '06 case capacity, based on the increase in bore diameter alone. In addition, 8mm bullets are .20 inches shorter than .308 bullets in nearly all bullet weights, adding about 3.7 grains of additional case capacity. This amounts to another 6% increase in case capacity over the '06. At any practical pressure level, therefore, one can expect about a 9.3% increase in energy and a 4.5% increase in velocity.

This makes the 8mm '06 rival factory loads in the 300 Win mag and 300 WSM, so it is clearly in a different class than the unmodified '06.

Sabot,

YOu must be employed over at Radford aren't ya?

seafire

Well, the answer is simple. What cartridge is the most popular in the US? The answer is, the .30-06. So, in my view, the .30-06 is the most versatile cartridge I can think of.

The ballistics you have included (in the original post) are a duplication of existing cartridges, so I can't see a substantial advantage of any 8mm over other cartridges with similar ballistics, EXCEPT for perhaps the shooter's state of mind.

For my type of hunting in Alaska, either a .375 H&H or a .338WM is the most versatile cartridge. The .30-06, or a .300WM are almost as good, too, and I can find ammo for these four in any of the stores around Alaska.

quote:

Originally posted by Sabot:
Necking the '06 up to 8mm gives the same velocity and energy increase as adding 10% to the '06 case capacity, based on the increase in bore diameter alone. In addition, 8mm bullets are .20 inches shorter than .308 bullets in nearly all bullet weights, adding about 3.7 grains of additional case capacity. This amounts to another 6% increase in case capacity over the '06. At any practical pressure level, therefore, one can expect about a 9.3% increase in energy and a 4.5% increase in velocity.

This makes the 8mm '06 rival factory loads in the 300 Win mag and 300 WSM, so it is clearly in a different class than the unmodified '06.

I agree somewhat with all the above.

My take is that a 30 necked up to 8mm will allow bullets of 10% greater mass @ the same MV with similar pressures, therefore giving 10% more muzzle energy.

This has been verified with real world chronograped results.

The 8mm-06 is in the 300 Win Mag class as far as real world performance, especialy with bullets of 200grs or better.

The 8mm-06 Ackley Improved is even better.

quote:

I do have a problem seeing where Wildcat here calls the 30 caliber and orphan.

The 7mm is better for deer sized game @ longer ranges and the 8mm is better when more bullet mass is required.

That's all I am saying.

The 30 is ok, but the others are better for their intended purpose.

I personally consider the 7mm to be perhaps not a medium bore, kind of an "in between". perfect for deer, perhaps a little on the light side for elk.

The 30 can handle either, but so can the 8mm with an advantage when one wants bullets of 200gr and up for elk or larger N American game or even African plains game.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Sabot,

YOu must be employed over at Radford aren't ya?

seafire

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Does this type of program even XIST at Radford?????????

Wildcat Junkie, I am surprised you didn't get hammered by all the 30-06 lovers here. Logic and simple ballistic sense means nothing when it comes to discussing the 8mm bores. You and I both know what our 8mm-06 Ackleys will do--better than any 30-06, although we couldn't find ammo at any corner store. If the gun world had "stopped" when the 06 was invented, we would have missed out on a lot of great cartridges. It is a great cartridge, no doubt about it--I am just sick of hearing about it. Most people discount the 8mm bore because they have never had a rifle chambered for it.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

I do have a problem seeing where Wildcat here calls the 30 caliber and orphan.

The 7mm is better for deer sized game @ longer ranges and the 8mm is better when more bullet mass is required.

That's all I am saying.

The 30 is ok, but the others are better for their intended purpose.

I personally consider the 7mm to be perhaps not a medium bore, kind of an "in between". perfect for deer, perhaps a little on the light side for elk.

The 30 can handle either, but so can the 8mm with an advantage when one wants bullets of 200gr and up for elk or larger N American game or even African plains game.

quote:

Most people discount the 8mm bore because they have never had a rifle chambered for it.

The only experience most Americans have with 8mm cartridges is the pathetic, corporate lawyer inspired, 8X57 loads foisted off on the american shooter by product liability paranoid American ammo companies.

What is it? 170grs @ 2400fps?

Breneke loads 198gr bullets to 2740fps. Norma a 196 @ 2600+fps.

Those are pretty darned potent loads, equal to the 338-06 for all intents and puoposes. Now the 8X68S, there is an awsome cartridge, AND it fits nicely into a standard M98 Mauser!

3100+fps from a 26" barrel with a 200gr bullet?

2900fps with a 220?

What more do you need for the largest N American game?

It´s a great medium bore!
I enjoy my 8x64S Brenneke with 220grs Woodleigh RN and 58grs of Vv-160

No hunting yet with that rifle...
But will go for moose and wild boar.

quote:

It´s a great medium bore!
I enjoy my 8x64S Brenneke with 220grs Woodleigh RN and 58grs of Vv-160

Ah the 8X64s and it's wildcat (ballistic) twin 8mm-06.

Try Vv N560, you'll get another 100-200fps with 3-4grs more than N160 @ the same pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Most people discount the 8mm bore because they have never had a rifle chambered for it.

The only experience most Americans have with 8mm cartridges is the pathetic, corporate lawyer inspired, 8X57 loads foisted off on the american shooter by product liability paranoid American ammo companies.

What is it? 170grs @ 2400fps?

Breneke loads 198gr bullets to 2740fps. Norma a 196 @ 2600+fps.

Those are pretty darned potent loads, equal to the 338-06 for all intents and puoposes. Now the 8X68S, there is an awsome cartridge, AND it fits nicely into a standard M98 Mauser!

3100+fps from a 26" barrel with a 200gr bullet?

2900fps with a 220?

What more do you need for the largest N American game?

Well, for a brown bear in Alaska, I would prefer a 400-grain bullet out of a .416 Rigby at 2,500 fps.

quote:

Well, for a brown bear in Alaska, I would prefer a 400-grain bullet out of a .416 Rigby at 2,500 fps.

And that is NOT a medium bore cartridge now is it?

And then there is also the 8X68S w/8mm 250gr Woodleigh @ 2600+fps.

I see the .338 Win. Mag. as the most verstaile medium bore, and it's more shootable than the bigger .338s. There is no 8mm counterpart bullet to the heavy 250 gr. projectiles you you can launch out of a .338 Win., and the lighter 200-210 gr. bullets shoot plenty flat and will take care of just about any open-country situation anywhere in the world. The 8mm has no practical advantage at either the light or heavy end of the scale, and it's not as available, at least in North America and Africa.

The .30-06 is widely considered the most useful general-use cartridge available, especially for North American game. Yet, the .338 Win. matches the ballistic profile of the .30-06 and exceeds it in power, making the .338 Win. more versatile than even the .30-06.

For example, the '06 pushes 150 gr. bullets out at 2900-3000 fps., which the .338 Win. will do with 210 gr. bullets. The .30-06 launches 165s at 2800 fps., which the .338 Win. will do with 225s. And the '06 will give 2700 fps. or better with 180 gr. bullets, which the .338 will accomplish with 250s. I don't see that any 8mm will match this all-purpose versatility.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Seeing as how the 8X57 was the first "high intensity" version of the 7X57...

You have your chronology backward:

8x57mm - 1888
7x57mm - 1892

But, you are correct in stating that the 8x57mm is the daddy to anything and everything with a 0.473" case head.

Whether, or not, ANY (and, I do mean ANY) of its descendants are improvements over the original is very, very debatable, from a purely technical standpoint. Practical standpoint, as in available rifles and ammo components, is another story, unfortunately.

RSY

I think there's a bit more to it than bore size. Versatility also comes from availability. I think the 8mm-06, 8x68 are great rounds, but brass, good bullets, rifles? The .30 wil be king in the US for along time, it just has the history. Me, I don't own a .30 unless you count my Garand. I lean to odd stuff, so I would be a candidate for an 8mm somethingbanger, but I like the .34 bore, so if I'm going to build something unique, it is my .338-06 or maybe a .338x68?

quote:

You have your chronology backward:

8x57mm - 1888
7x57mm - 1892

You are correct, but I was referring to the 8X57 IS as the "High Intensity" version.

I believe that appeared circa 1905?

There is nothing the 8mm brings to the table that makes it any more versitile than the calibers above or below it .

On the lower end , the .30 s are superior in the 150 gr range , and there is nothing you can do with the 8mm 220 s that could not be done just as handily with a stout 200 gr .30 caliber slug .

On the upper end , I agree with Allen that the .338 bore is the most versiltile in creation , with good bullets running from 180 all the way to 300 gr , the 8mm doesn't even touch it.....

I could agree with the .338 as being extremely versital, I might add that the .340 Wby also deserves consideration as a hotter version, as does the .338 Lapua. But let me add another to the list, the .358 STA. Bullets from 185 grains to 310 grains and speeds galore for all those bullet sizes. All of these superior to the 8mm in my opinion, if pure versitality is what the criteria is. I have taken my STA from Colorado, to Alaska and Africa, with a 270 bullet at 2900 fps it puts the .375 H&H in the shade. Of course opinions are like ---holes, everyone has one, you just heard mine. Good shooting.

You can pretty much tailor any medium bore to do whatever you would like it to do.

The rest is the same old discussion:

.30/.338/.375 vs 7mm/8mm/9.3mm
Belted vs Standard
Magnum vs Normal

I think metric, and don't pay much attention to marketing hype, so the old 7x64, 8x60 and 9.3x62 can all be loaded up or down to suit my needs.

I agree with Kurt. Whats necessary or minimum for a task is a matter of opinion.

The same guys who write that the .338 is the most versitile suggest the .300 WM for Africa!

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
I see the .338 Win. Mag. as the most verstaile medium bore, and it's more shootable than the bigger .338s. There is no 8mm counterpart bullet to the heavy 250 gr. projectiles you you can launch out of a .338 Win., and the lighter 200-210 gr. bullets shoot plenty flat and will take care of just about any open-country situation anywhere in the world. The 8mm has no practical advantage at either the light or heavy end of the scale, and it's not as available, at least in North America and Africa.

The .30-06 is widely considered the most useful general-use cartridge available, especially for North American game. Yet, the .338 Win. matches the ballistic profile of the .30-06 and exceeds it in power, making the .338 Win. more versatile than even the .30-06.

For example, the '06 pushes 150 gr. bullets out at 2900-3000 fps., which the .338 Win. will do with 210 gr. bullets. The .30-06 launches 165s at 2800 fps., which the .338 Win. will do with 225s. And the '06 will give 2700 fps. or better with 180 gr. bullets, which the .338 will accomplish with 250s. I don't see that any 8mm will match this all-purpose versatility.

AD

As Allen points out, the one "problem" with the 8mm, at least here in North America, is that it is bracketed by the .308" caliber on one side and the .338" caliber on the other. It just kind of gets lost in between.

But, IMHO, that doesn't mean that there is anything really wrong with the 8mm. I bought one of the Remington Model 700 Classics in 8x57 and have been playing around with it (handloading). The ol' 8x57 really isn't so bad when you get it loaded up to European pressures specs.

I like to think of the 8x57 as sort of a .308 Winchester that uses heavier bullets. The 8x57 will shoot bullets of equal sectional density to about the same speed as the .308 Win. But, of course, the 8mm bullets are slightly heavier and have a slightly larger diameter. Below is a chart that I put together comparing the .30-06, 8x57 and the .308 Win. Notice that the 8x57 has about the same velocity and trajectory as the .308 Winchester but that it carries roughly the same energy down range as a .30-06. I used Hornady bullets in order to have a common basis for comparison between the three. Of course, using bullets with different ballistic coefficients will change the results some but I think the chart provides a good baseline comparison of the three cartridges. I think it shows that the ol' 8x57 will hang right in there with the more commonly used .30-06 and .308 Win.

-Bob F.



Federal factory ammo specs:

.308 Winchester
180 gr Nosler Partition
Muzzle Velocity: 2620 fps

.30-06 Springfield
180 gr Nosler Partition
Muzzle Velocity: 2700 fps

Sellier & Bellot factory ammo specs:
8x57JS
196 gr SPCE
Muzzle Velocity: 2592 fps (790 ms)

RWS factory ammo specs:
8x57JS
196 gr TMR
Muzzle Velocity: 2625 fps (800 ms)

(Edited to correct some spelling errors.)

quote:

As Allen pints out, the one "problem" with the 8mm, at least here in North America, is that it is bracketed by the .308" caliber on one side and the .338" caliber on the other. It just kind of gets lost in between.

Sorta like the 16 guage shotgun, which some folks think is ideal.

Great chart, Bob. Thanks for the effort.

RSY

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Seeing as how the 8X57 was the first "high intensity" version of the 7X57, and is therefore the father (or perhaps grandfather) of all .473" head based cartridges, and the 8X57 when loaded to European (or perhaps a better term is "adult") pressure levels is the equal to or perhaps superior (with bullets > 200grs.) to the 30-06, shouldn't the 8X57 be the "benchmark" by which all "medium bore" cartridges are measured by?

Add to this the 8mm WSM, (AKA 325WSM) 8X68S and 8mm Rem Mag, what large game can't be effectively "handled" that wouldn't require something in the 375 or greater catagory?

Any of the 8mm "mags" would propel a 180gr Nosler BT @ over 3150fps for flat trajectory, plus a 250gr Woolleigh @ 2600fps would handle anything short of Cape Buffalo.

The good ol' 8X57 or perhaps an 8mm-06 loaded to 60k would do a fine job on anything in between up to and including Elk sized game.

An 8X57 will easily attain 2800fps+ with the 180 BT, add 100fps for the 8mm-06, another 100fps for the Ackley Improved version.

If you need flatter trajectory, go to a 7mm cartridge like the 280 Rem loaded to 62K @ 3150fps w/140gr bullets.

30 cal is the real orphan here, it does OK, but it is mediocre.

PS: The "limited choice" in 8mm bullets is a myth if one is willing to do a little looking. Bullet weights range from 108gr plinkers to 250gr Woodleighs.

VERY VALID argument! I have always been impressed by the actual, rather than paper, performance of .323" bore rifles! So was Charlie Askins.

quote:

Ah the 8X64s and it's wildcat (ballistic) twin 8mm-06.

Try Vv N560, you'll get another 100-200fps with 3-4grs more than N160 @ the same pressure.

Life is more excitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

Try VV 550 with the 196grs Woodleigh, you will get 2875 fps with a pressure 15% under Pmax. This load is pressure-tested by the laboratory of the DEVA

. It does fine on the european red stags und on the european wild boars. Reformed nickel-.35 Whelen cases und CCI BR primers are used.

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:

quote:

Ah the 8X64s and it's wildcat (ballistic) twin 8mm-06.

Try Vv N560, you'll get another 100-200fps with 3-4grs more than N160 @ the same pressure.

Life is more excitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

Try VV 550 with the 196grs Woodleigh, you will get 2875 fps with a pressure 15% under Pmax. This load is pressure-tested by the laboratory of the DEVA

. It does fine on the european red stags und on the european wild boars. Reformed nickel-.35 Whelen cases und CCI BR primers are used.

Gruess Gott, Herr Forster! Welcome aboard!