Guys,

I bought a Savage blue/synthetic package rifle in .308 to replace a 7400 that is having problems. The other two synthetic stock rifles I have for nasty weather are a bit large in caliber for some places here (.338 Win Mag and .375 H&H).

Took it to the range and did the 10x(1 rnd and clean), 5x(2rds and clean), 2x(5 rds and clean) break-in regimen on it. In the process I found that the scope mounts were not tightened down at the factory.

The mounts are poor. You cannot independently tighten the scope and the mount to the connection to the rifle.

Groups were not good.

At home I changed the mounts to Weavers which do allow independent tightening. Best group I could get was 2" at 100 yards. Loads were 43.5 gr BLC-2 with 150 gr ball bullets on LC 85 cases with WLR primers. This load shoots less than an inch at 100 from a Match M1A with iron sights.

Changed to a different scope and tried again at 50 yards with the same load. Would get two rounds together and throw the third out an inch or so.

Tried 150 grain Noslers with 43,2 gr BLC-2 on the same cases and that was a little better with groups around an inch ... 2 close one throw. BUT ... two of the rounds failed to fire. Primer indents don't appear to be very strong. Most curious.

Tried 165 gr Core-Lokts with 42.5 gr RL-15 on the same cases. Same pattern ... two close next throw.

Seems to get worse as the bbl gets dirty. (Didn't have a cleaning kit with me the last time out.)

Have checked the tension of the stock bolts but not measured it. The barrel is fully floated even when the barrel is warm. Piece of paper goes down it easily with no contact. Rifle was rested on the forearm with my left hand under the butt, so it's not a matter of varying tension on the forearm.

Have been reloading some 40 years and the ammo was loaded with RCBS dies and a Bonanza match seater. All of the charges were weighted.

This kind of accuracy is just poor ... any ideas?

"At home I changed the mounts to Weavers which do allow independent tightening"
Not sure I understand what you mean? What is independent tightening?

The mounts supplied by Savage have a bolt at the top and one at the bottom. The bottom bolt clamps both the scope and the Weaver rail. You can't tightent the scope independently of tightening the mount to the rail.

Hey Mike, I believe your best opportunity to get good groups is going to come from actually Devaloping A Load for the rifle rather than just randomly picking one. Just because a particular Load shoots well in one rifle does not necessarily mean it will shoot well in another. I know a few folks believe you can do that, but it just doesn't work that way for "me". A randomy picked Load could "accidentally" hit at the proper Harmonic, but the odds are about 179 to 1 against it.

And I have my best luck when I Fine Tune my Loads by adjusting the Seating Depth for the specific rifle.

You mentioned a "150gr Ball Bullets". If you mean either Win or Rem FMJs, I've only found them to average around 2" in some extremely accurate 308Wins over the years. I was recently given some 150gr FN-FAL FMJs and they seem to be more accurate than the Wins or Rems, but when I shoot a rifle for the first time, I like to use either Sierra Matchkings or Nosler B-Tips to eliminate the Bullet as being part of the accuracy concern.

Also found IMR-4064 to be consistently more accurate than BL-C2 in all the 308Wins I've ever had. If I ever run out of IMR-4064, it currently looks like Varget is the way to go. I enjoy Ball Powders like BL-C2 myself, but it just hasn't been the most accurate in a 308Win for me.

All that said, you might do great with the way you are approaching it. It just isn't the way I go about getting a new rifle started.

Best of luck to you.

Hot Core,

The ball bullets are IMI ... have been very accurate in M1A and SIG AMT rifles in the past (with BLC-2 actually). The Ball/BLC-2 has been the most accurate so far.

RL-15 is a standard for the most demanding .308 ammo in the military sniper community.

BTW the rounds were all taper crimped.

No question that a full workup is needed.

What worries me is that the I get two together and a significant flier with all loads. Makes me wonder if something is loose or there is a problem with the fit to the stock as the rifle is not bedded.

Must have been lucky so far as I've never needed to adjust the distance from the lands to get a decent load in .308. But most of my rifles have NATO chambers. What's a good distance to start with?

Mike,
Buy a box of Federal 168 grain Match ammo.
Or load a 168 Matchking or 165 Seitta HPBT Gameking over 39.5 grains of IMR 3031.
If it does not shoot one of these loads good, something is wrong. I have NEVER seen a 308 rifle that would not shoot good with those two loads. Single shot, Savage 99, M1-A Garand, FN, H&K 91, or a bolt rifle, hunting or "Sniper" type.
Try a box of Federal Match and tell us how she shoots.

Shoot some 10 shot groups, ploting each shot to see if there is a pattern to the dispersion.

Mike,
I think the rings you're describing are made by B-Square. Actually some pretty neat rings in appearance, BUT every time I put the set I bought on a rifle it threw modified choke patterns at 100yds.

Dr. Rose prescribes some Varget and Sierra 168gr SMKs that should get the good groups going.

The second two range visits were with different mounts. First thing I changed. Went to Weavers on the Simmons scope, and then changed to a scope I know well.

Damn, I have 168 SMKs but no Varget or 3031. BTW, the IMI Ball/BLC-2 load has performed for me in every rifle I've shot them through. Even works well in an M-60 ;>

Going to melt wheel weights into ingots this afternoon and do full workup on some .308 cases. Will trim them to 2.005" and sort by weight as well.

May take a few days to get to the only store on my side of town that sells powder as archery season has started here.

I don't mean to sound insulting but the Simmons scopes are not something I would ever put on a hunting rifle.

I shoot a number of Savage rifles, with factory barrels, and have found that I need 100+ rounds down the tube before things really begin to settle down. I would be choosing a different bullet, particularly if you a planning to hunt with this gun. 4064 is always a good choice in my experience as well. Is the stock pillar bedded? If yes, don't be afraid to tighten them up pretty good, as the 2 in and 1 out sounds like movement of something to me. For me, I've found I need a different technique with the light barrelled sporters than with the heavy varmint style barrels. I will usually pull the forend tight down into the front bag with the light barrels, as they seem to really jump around compared to a heavier bench style barrel. And if your resting that rear sling stud in the back bag, that will affect the recoil response ALOT, usually affecting groups as well. In summary, I think you need more rounds down the barrel and a different bag technique. My 2 or 3 cents worth.

One more thought, could you describe your cleaning technique? Are you sure you're getting all the copper out and its not fouled? Savages are notorious for taking a while to smooth out.

284Win,

The rifle has a light hunter barrel and a pillar bedded synthetic stock. I was not shy in tightening the bolts, but will use a torque wrench next time.

I have been laying the front stock on a rest and putting my left hand under the rear to provide leveling. Allows the rifle to move rather sharply for sure. Have found that to produce the most consistent groups with light rifles that allow it. Certainly do not do that with the mediums and heavies (.338 Win Mag, 9,3x62, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby and a couple of double rifles) and they shoot fine too.

Have been aternating Butch's and Sweets to clean the bore ... both are pretty good copper solvents. Bore does not appear to crud up badly.

Certainly not going to hunt with FMJs. That's why I was working with the 150 Noslers and the 165 CLs as well. Those will work fine on whitetails.

I have noticed that this little 7 pound rifle does recoil rather smartly and I have wondered if this fella has a tight bore in comparison to my other .308 rifles.

Sure do appreciate the thoughts ...

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
...The ball bullets are IMI ... have been very accurate in M1A and SIG AMT rifles in the past (with BLC-2 actually). The Ball/BLC-2 has been the most accurate so far. ...

Hey Mike, I've not tried the IMI. They may even be more accurate than the FN-FAL "FREE-bies" I got.

Don't misunderstand when I said IMR-4064 was more accurate for "me". In fact, BL-C2 might be more accurate in your rifles, since each rifle is different. We jus tdon't know what shoots the best until we try it. The reason I mentioned IMR-4064 is I've used it on and off in a whole bunch of 308Wins since about 1955 and it always seems to provide great accuracy.

quote:

RL-15 is a standard for the most demanding .308 ammo in the military sniper community.

I know a lot of folks like the various "RL" Powders, but I noticed Pressure Fluctuations as you approached a SAFE MAX with RL-15, 19, 22 and 25. Tried about 3 jugs of each except for the RL-25 and I only used one there. Ended up giving what I had left to a buddy for him to try and he had the same Pressure Fluctuations that I did. He spread them on his garden.

That may no longer be an issue with the "RL" Powders, cause it was when they initially came out that I tried them.

quote:

What worries me is that the I get two together and a significant flier with all loads. Makes me wonder if something is loose or there is a problem with the fit to the stock as the rifle is not bedded.

You just have to eliminate one possibility at a time until you find it. As 284Win said, it might just cure itself after a few more bullets go through it.

quote:

Must have been lucky so far as I've never needed to adjust the distance from the lands to get a decent load in .308. But most of my rifles have NATO chambers. What's a good distance to start with?

I've got a few rifles that like ANYTHING I load for them. They just look like regular rifles. One I was positively sure was not going to shoot worth beans because it has the real cheap plastic stock you hear refered to as Tupperware. I can reach up and touch the Forearm and it just wiggles around. Plus, there is ZERO bedding material around the Recoil Lug. I was sure it wasn't going to shoot well.

Well, I'm sure glad I tried it before I messed with it, because it is one of the most accurate out-of-the-box rifles I've shot. Just strange that it seems to break a lot of the Rules we consider should be different.

When I begin Developing a Load, I generally start with the MatchKings about 0.005" Into-the-Lands. And I use Fully Prepped, weight-sorted cases. Then I start with some Minimum Loads after looking through a few Manuals and try to use Mr. Creighton Audette's Method.

You find the Minimum and load "one cartridge" there at say 45.0gr of XXX Powder. Then in 308Win size cases you would go to the 2nd cartridge and load it at 45.2gr, etc.

You shoot them at the same Target when the wind is calm and for the best results do it at 300yds. And you absolutely must know which hole each shot made. That means a good spotting scope or someone at the Butts marking a Target with the Point-of-Impact.

Then you look for "clusters of shots" and that will indicate where the Harmonics reach an Apogee or Perigee.

I reload some groups of 3-shots around those "clusters" using the Bullets I want to Hunt with about 0.010"-0.015" Off-the-Lands and see which is the most accurate. Once again when you can do this at a distance with no wind it helps considerably. (I've not tried this with monolithic bullets, just Standard Grade Hunting Bullets.)

Then I fine tune the Best Load by re-shooting while varying the Seating Depth.

It takes me a long time to get a Load Developed, but I'm never in a hurry about it. Once " I " begin to hurry, I'm just wasting my time trying to get high confidence in my Final Load.

Best of luck to you.

My Savage .308 loves the 150 gr SST's, but hates anything 165 gr. But it then shoots 180 gr Remmington bullets just fine.

Kind of a funny rifle. It took me a lot of work to get the 165 gr load, and a little for the 150 and 180gr. I also found IMR 4895 worked better then 4064. Not sure why.

Check your scope for paralax; which can easily cause the fliers you describe.

Do you have another scope you can try on this rifle? That is a relatively easy thing to check and you may find your problem to be scope related.

I have used the IMI FMJ bullets for HP practice and find them accurate enough for position shooting, but when developing loads or for match shooting, rely on the Sierra Match Kings. As previously mentioned the Nos. BT's usually shoot well also.

First thing I would eliminate, however, is the scope and once this is proven OK, proceed w/the load development.

Good luck, and keep us posted as to your progress.

Regards,
hm

PS

quote:

Tried 150 grain Noslers with 43,2 gr BLC-2 on the same cases and that was a little better with groups around an inch ... 2 close one throw. BUT ... two of the rounds failed to fire. Primer indents don't appear to be very strong. Most curious.

Have you checked a fired case from this rifle with a case mike? Is it possible your dies are set for a match chamber (your M1A) and this rifle has a "looser" chamber, causing a bit of excessive headspace?

Well ... after doing the work to find an optimum length (0.010 off the lands to start) and an optimum load with RL-15 and 165 gr CoreLokt Protected points ... I noticed progressively better groups from rounds fired 75 to 110.

Went back to one of the original test loads (42.5 gr RL-15 with 165 gr CoreLokts on LC 85 cases with WLR primers) and got 3 shot sub 3/8" groups at 50 yards.

Looks like the guys who suggested the rifle simply needed to be shot some more were correct!

When I actually get full data of the optimum length and charge I'll bet this fella will be fine for a light hunting rifle.

Thanks folks!