I am looking at buying a new rifle in 308 Win. The rifle is also offered in 7.62x39. Both rifles have 16" barrels. Is the 308 Win. potential going to be wasted in a barrel that short? I have seen no chronograph data on a 308 Win. in a barrel that short. However I have seen the 7.62x39 push a 125gr. slug at 2300fps from a 16" barrel with acceptable pressure. What would be the pros and cons of each as you see it? Thank you for the help.

You are going to get a fair old muzzle blast from a .308 in a 16" barrel. Whether that bothers you, only you can determine. It will also vary with the powders you use.
- mike

The 7.62 X 39 round was designed to be used in the short barrel of the early Soviet assault rifles. I would think that the .308 in the same, short barrel, would be wasted potential: more flash and bang as mentioned above.

Might you be looking at a Saiga? If so, they offer a longer barrel ( 20" I believe ) for the .308.

The .308 is a very efficient cartridge in short barrels and even does very , very well in the really short handgun barrels such as the Striker. Yeah , you will get more muzzle blast , but the .308 will far outclass the 7.62x39 in any barrel length............

I had a .270 once with a 17" barrel. Never again .
My guess would be a 16" barrel is about 80fps slower than a 20"er and a whole lot louder.

Terry

I agree with the comment of good results with the .308 Win,
in short barrels. I have a Savage Striker, .308 Win, with
a 14" barrel(no muzzle brake), and get 2750 fps with 125 gr
Barnes X Bullets, with W748 powder about .5 grains under
published maximums. I also load for a SKS in 7.62x39,
using 123 gr Hornady SP bullets, again with powders just
under maximums. As I recall, that load is chronographing
in the 2600 fps range, and that has a few more inches of
barrel over the Striker. I personally would go with the
.308 Win. There are many options in bullets, and ammo,
including cheap military choices, where the 7.62x39,
if you stick with .310 bullets, is much more limited.
I have tried .308 bullets, in my SKS, but the consistancy
suffers dramatically. I like the .308 Win, so much,
there is a new BAR Stalker rifle on order, in that
caliber, to be used as my Whitetail brush gun.

Squeeze

Getting in some shooting in open dusty areas, it becomes obvious when a rifle is running out of range. The SKS is somewhere between the 22 rimfire and the 308 for stirring up dust at a distance.

The .308 may lose a lot of velocity compared to one with a longer tube but, it will always outperform the 7.62x39. Depends what you want to do with it? For plinking & small game I'd pick the 7.62x39 but for a deer & larger game rifle I'd opt for the .308. Then again, if I was getting a .308, I'd get at least a 20" tube. Just MHO.

"It varies, with the powders you use".......... EXACTLY!!

YOU can always handload a 308 down to 7.62 x 39 specs, and 30/30 specs, but you can't load the other two up to a 308 specs.

For practicality, a 308 would be the hands down logical choice in my way of thinking.

PS: Hot Core, the all around mythical perfect deer cartridge is the 260 Rem, then the 7/08, then the 308. Followed by the 250 Savage..... but you knew that didn't ya?

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

fwiw,
The .308 Winchester is by a large margin my favorite centerfire... That said I would not recommend a barrel of less than 20". Matter of fact my favorite .308 wears a 20" tube, however, when you go shorter it gets unpleasant quickly. My disdain for short .308s was born from a Custom M-1 Garand "Tanker/T-26". Tis a great chambering buy not in a 16" barrel. imho.

Regards, Matt.

I think the 7.62x39mm is a perfect bush rifle for close range shooting.
I brought a mini-30 just for that purpose, bedded the action, adjusted the gas port screws and it shoots 3moa at 100yards with chinese ammo.
When I work up some loads it should be sweet.

Milomate

I consider the .308 the perfect light caliber for big game but I think it needs a 22" barrel to perform, otherwise your in the 30-30 or 300 Sav. class, but they are both good cartridges in their own right, it would depend on just exactly you intend to do with it....A 16" rifle doesn't get my attention unless its a trapper model 30-30 M-94, which I think is a neat little deer rifle...

My Ruger 77 RSI is in 308 with about a 19" barrel and is a perfect little rifle. With a 1.5-4.5 scope it's handy, accurate and a perfect walk-about rifle.

I have a .308 with a 18.5" barrel and it performs very well, factory 150's do about 2600fps, muzzle blast isn't severe.

I would stay 20" or above.

I have an old browning blr81 in .308 with a 20" bbl. it is very accurate, easy to cary and all the frepower you need , killed a bunch of deer,varmits and a few bear with it. Many Canadians use the .308 and they are usually no nonsense guys and use what works .

Ray. While I respect your greater hunting experience, I am going to have to mildly disagree with you. I have a Ruger RSI that is about the fussiest rifle in .308 Win. I know of. (Actually, I have three of them, all in .308 Win.) Barrel length is 18.5". With the only load that I have worked up that gave decent accuracy (49.0 gr. W-760 with 165 gr. Speer Hot-Core)velocity is 2550 FPS. (I admit, not a barn burner but every deer shot was a one shot kill from 35 feet to 250 yards.)The same load from a Winchester M70 with 22" barrel is 2610 FPS, only a 60 FPS difference.
Considering the pass through shots on the closer deer and the chest to back leg penetration on the 250 yard deer, I don't feel the .308 is too badly handicapped with a shorter barrel. The longest shot I ever made was at 427 paces on a Mule Deer in Nevada. I forget the load, but the bullet was the 150 gr. Sierra SPFB and the deer had been hit by one of my hunting partners and was getting away. I will be the first to admit it was a lucky shot, but that bullet from a 20" barreled Remington 660 did the job just fine.
I'll agree that I'm not so sure about the .308 in a 16" barrel though. Not so much that it won't do the job, but the muzzle blast has to be horrendous. With the serious hearing loss I have, I'd have to take a pass on that barrel length. Still, it should outperform the 7.62x39 by quite a margin. JMHO from using a .308 of one kind or another since 1975.
Paul B.

If you do not intend to handload, the 7.62X39 in a 16 inch bbl is a better choice, as long as you can get Barnaul ammo from Midway. These clock 2550 fps for the 123 gr HP in my CZ 527 with 18.5 inch bbl.

If you handload, however, the 308 makes a lot more sense and you can develop some fine short bbl loads...just avoid the double based ball powders that are so popular in this round in longer bbls to cut muzzle blast. Varget will drive 130 gr psp bullets well over 2800 fps in a 15 inch bbl. See Hodgdon 2002 Manual Pg 28. It also makes 2675 fps with 150 grainers and 2580 with 168 gr match bullets. I have witnessed this last load shoot several 5 shot groups from an Encore pistol that were under 0.50 MOA.

The 308 has the same expansion ratio as the 223 and has the same pressure curve with the same powders. Varget is also the best powder for the 223 in short bbls.

For a light recoil and reduced muzzle blast treat, try working up to 34.5 grs of AA XMP5744 and 2650 fps with Nosler 125 gr Ballistic Tips...this is 15 to 16 grs LESS powder than the Varget load above and it all burns in 15 or 16 inches. This powder is designed for low load densities and will give fine consistency in the velocity department.

G'day,
I have Remington Mohawk in 7/08. It sports a 16 1/2 inch barrel. I'm shooting 140grn Sierras at 2750fps (chrongraphed) over a load of Benchmark. It took considerable load development work to achieve this, but that's why I'm a reloader.

This is my walk around rifle, it's a breeze to carry and points really well. I've had no complaints from anything that I have hit cleanly with it.

As some of the other boys have posted, it all depends what you intend using the rifle for and if you'll be relying on factory ammo or reloading.

HTH

My Steyr Scout has a 19inch barrel.
With 47grs of ww-748 it shoots a 168gr Barnes TSX at 2750fps. 46grs of Varget puts a 165 gr partition at 2650 and can put 3 shots into 3/4 inch at 200yds.
Either of these loads will do about anything a 308 needs to.
Quickload accurately predicts the acheived velocities and predict velocities of 2638, and 2583 respectively for a 16in barrel. -Quickload also predicts excess pressure with these loads even though they are listed in other manuals as Ok.
Usually the same powders that acheive top velocities in long barrels will do the same in shorter barrels so I would suggest that you stick with the traditional good performers in 308 unless you are using a very light bullet or something.......DJ

djp==i don't believe your steyr at 3/4 inch at 200 yds==show me

Paul B,
I can't argue that kind of logic, the Ruger RSI is such a lovly rifle that I would be perfectly content to pack it around from now on!!

3/4 inch groups at 200 yards? that is some shooting for sure...

My .308 16" bbl is actually a .30-30 Model 94 Trapper. I don't understand short barrel rifles for the most part, or long barreled pistols at all. I also look down my nose at the 7.62x39 so my advice would be to go back to the starting line and...start again.



Another post compared the 30-30 to the 7.62x39, I don't see that either. I've not seen load data that will put the little one on par with the big one when using significant bullets. With perhaps a few exceptions, most 7.62x39 chambered rifles have bores a bit bigger than .308, .310-.311" apparently the most common. Yeah, there is a vast selection of bullets available for that one. Why would one handicap themselves with such a beast? And the .308...great cartridge, needs a little bit more barrel to keep the noise down and achieve it potential.



Sorry I can't see a positive side to this choice. What is your intended use? Where do you live?

TwoCanoes, The rifle did actually shoot a 3/4" 3 shot group at 200yds. I didn't save that particular target but next time I will and post it. Hopefully there will be other shooters there so I can get it witnessed. LB404 on this forum may have been at the range with me one of times I shot it so you might PM him if you think I'm just making it up.
That being said I certainly don't claim that it does this every time - I just said that it can because it has. If you don't want to believe me thats OK I'll admit it does sound a little unlikely - no insult taken. I just wish this 25-35mph (&*&^($#@^ Oklahoma wind would go away so I can have some fun shooting...........DJ

TwoCanoes, Couldn't find the Scout group but here a couple others that might be of interest.......





Kinda shows you why I like the Colt Light rifles. Light rifles can indeed shoot well enough to hunt with.
I realize that these are just 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups are usually substantially larger but for Hunting 3 shots is usually 2 more than you need.
When time and conditions permit I'll try and reshoot a Scout 200yd group for you..........DJ

Just shot my cz yesterday. UMC ammo went into neat liitle 1" groups at 100 yds. I was darn impressed.

The Corbon 150 grain ammo I got claims 2350 fps. If I'm not mistaken that is pretty much what .30-30 ammo is loaded to. Still, I prefer my .30-30 for deer. Besides, I think a handloader may have trouble duplicating that velocity.

A 308 will outperform a 7.62x39 in any length barrel. Id be very suprised if the difference in velocity was much greater between the two at 16" vs. 22". I think the 308 will perform fine in a 16" barrel, certainly better than a 7.62x39. But this is coming from a guy that carries a 20" barreled 30-06.

Quote:
(Two Canoes) djp==i don't believe your steyr at 3/4 inch at 200 yds==show me

(Atkinson) 3/4 inch groups at 200 yards? that is some shooting for sure...

Unquote:\

Oh ye of little faith.....

I had a chance to go out today and shoot the my Steyr Scout at 200yds in decent wind conditions......



308's aren't a waste of time... ..DJ

That a way to show em DJP!!!

200 yds, three shots. that is 66.66 yards per shot. just kidding. nice shooting, indeed, to do it on call is confidence in your gun AND your shooting.

If I can tomorrow, I will put three shots in the same hole. so far the only way I have succeeded is to aim for the ozone hole with the last two shots.

keep it fun.

I like some others have 308's with various barrel lengths. The shortest is a Ruger RSI @ 18.5" and like the other here, I have had a devil of a time getting decent velocities out of it. I have another similar rifle built on a M98 action with a 20" barrel, and it gets significantly better velocities and is much less finicky. I would hate loading 308 in a 16" tube!

Generally speaking the energy imparted to a projectile is directly related to the area of the base of the bullet. As your tube get shorter, your bore has to get bigger to compensate. I don't know what your objective is, but if you want a real short, handy rifle, try a .35 caliber or even .366 (9.3mm). I believe the bullets available for the .35 will be better for the velocities you will get. Remington had a factory .35 round, Winchester had a rimmed 356 on a 307 case and 358 on a 308 case, and a wildcat exists in 338-08. I'd suggest one of the Winchester .35's for a 16' tube. One was made for heavy duty lever guns and the other for bolt guns. The bullets available are built for the velocities you will be getting, and you will get better velocities than with the 308.

You will also be able to use faster powders with a bigger bore bullet because as the bullet travels down the bore, the volume behind the bullet will increase more rapidly with a big bore than with the smaller bullet. Therefore, you will be able to put more energy into the larger bore bullet in the shorter tube. A 45-70 Guide gun is the ultimate example of this principle.

Sounds like an interesting project. Good luck. Ku-dude