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I've got a Remington Sendero SF II (700) that I've had for a couple of years now. I bought it new along with a new Leupold VX-III 4.5x14. This rifle has the HS Precision stock with the integral aluminum bedding block. It's just never shot as well as I'd hoped it would. I've done load development with 3 or 4 different powders and 3 or 4 different brands and weights of bullets and while I've found a couple of loads that are around 1 inch at 100 yds the majority of the testing has resulted in groups 2" and over. The groups are generally just open groups, not tight groups with flyers or 2 seperate groups. I've never had this much trouble finding a good load so I'm now thinking something is wrong with the rifle as I feel it should be capable of much better. I'm looking for advice on what to look for or do. Some background: I've checked all of the obvious (to me) stuff: -Scope mounts are tight and secure -Bedding screws are tight -The bore seems fine for a factory gun - ie. doesn't foul excessively, cleans up easily, crown looks fine -The action seems to sit in the stock ok, doesn't rock around with the bedding screws out. -No obvious rub marks etc. in the action bedding area of the stock -I've adjusted the trigger to a nice crisp break and a lighter pull than factory but still suitable for hunting -Bolt lugs seem to have even contact -Fired brass is concentric to .001 so I don't think the chamber is wonky So I'll list in order what I'm thinking of doing. Any suggestions are most welcome. 1. Verify that the scope is good by trying it on a known gun and trying a known scope on the Sendero. 2. Skim bed the rifle with epoxy, leave the barrel free floated. 3. Bed the chamber area of he barrel for the first inch or so maybe? After the above, I'm at a loss. I should mention that I have no problem shooting tight groups with my other rifles and the relatively heavy recoil of the RUM is not an issue for me. Also, the ammo I've been making for it is concentric within .002" and I've been very careful at all stages of reloading to ensure accuracy. So there's my novel. I bought the Sendero expecting a nice accurate factory rifle. So far it's been disappointing. The last group I shot was 1 inch. Maybe it just needed some rounds through it. It has about 150 rounds through it now. Thanks for any ideas or suggestions. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | ||
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I have the 300 RUM and I don't have any problems. I reload all my rounds. I use H1000 powder | |||
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The first thing that I personally do in a situation like this is buy a box of Ballistic tips.. Then I get them snuggled right up and barely kissing the lands. Some amount of Reloader powders and if it won't shoot with that simple combination it is too much freeking work for me to figure it out. No need to now days, there are just too many rifles out there straight from the factory that shoot fantastic to put up with a mediocre performer. The only other thing that I would try after you do exactly as you have outlined and if it does not work is to experiment a little with barrel pressure. A credit card makes for good shims under the barrel, but frankly in my opinion if you havent found the issue by then I would get rid of it and start anew. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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Even though the bedding seems OK,I'd still bed the action and make sure the barrel is free floating. | |||
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Yo 2-T........, I agree 100% w/Bucko. Try some 180 grain Nosler BT's. My Hunting Pal's 300 RUM is in the same catagory as yours; we always feel like we've just about arrived....but are left scratching our heads. We're hoovering right about where you're at; 1.5"-2" groups with his rifle, too. So fas he has only wanted to feed it Barnes TXS's (his choice) and we got a few Boxes of 180 gr. Barnes Tipped & Super Tipped in the wings. Load testing with his beast isn't alot of fun either (it's a Custom Lightweight = featherweight). Cool if all you're ever gonna do is carry it but eventually you've got to touch one off. I loaded a few Hornady 168 gr. SST's for him and they shot respectably. Don't knw that I'd want to use the load on game though.  Cheers, Number 10 | |||
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This is how my out of the box .300 Win Mag Sendero shot my handloads. The only tuning was lowering trigger weight :  I believe something must be wrong with either rifle or scope. I would suggest you switch scopes and if that doesn't help, have the rifle checked by a competent riflesmith. André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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with the 3 things you're thinking of i believe you're on the right track. if that doesn't work try firelapping the bore, and then if that doesn't work its new barrel time(I'm betting on new barrel time) | |||
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The only two acceptable loads so far are: 165 BT and RL 22 - also shoots the 165 NAB about the same 200 NAB and US869 I've tried 165 and 180 Barnes MRX I've tried 4350 and 7828 I've got a bunch of loads with 180 NAB and US869 to try next. I've always had good luck with Nosler bullets and Reloader powders in general with my other rifles. Hodgdon US 869 is new to me but is well suited to the cartridge and shows some promise. Still not exciting in the accuracy department though. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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Rem Sendero's can be real picky about torque on the pillow block bedding screws. Check w/ Rem on the specs, loosen then re-tighten to specs. I seems to remember 40 -45 inch pounds but don’t trust my memory! ________ Ray | |||
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Interesting. I did some checking, it seems Remington says 45 inch pounds and HS Precision says 65 inch pounds. I think I'll pick up an inch pounds torque wrench and see what's up. All I know right now is that they are 'tight'. Any recommendations on what order to tighten the screws in? I generally just go back and forth between them until they're tight enough. While searching regarding bedding screw torque I also found some mention that the Sendero benefits from bedding in spite of the bedding block system. Encouraging at least. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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HS recommends 65"lbs while Remington stays at 45 (the alu bottom is rather fragile). I agree some testing is in order as each rifle has its preferences. I found out that my Sendero likes 45 (5 Nm), while my Rem 700 P definitely prefers 53 (6 Nm). However, while torque control allows to squeeze an extra drop of accuracy out of an already good shooting rifle, I'm afraid it won't be of much help is there's something basically wrong with the gun. André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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Shoot the rifle with your 3 best loads at 200 and 300 yards, even 600 if possible. I have seen some rifles that were just so so at 100 yards but shot under MOA at longer ranges. Also clean your barrel really, really, really good with J&B Bore Paste or Remclean. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I doubt it is the scope, a bad scope throws shots & won't group at all IME. If it is in a alum bedding block, not sure adding glass anywhere would help. You might try to verify the alum bedding block is actually bearing square. You are using a non canister powder, maybe it is the problem? You could just have a bad barrel, happens. It may like a particular bullet more than another. Stick w/ one bullet like a 180grNBT. Make sure you are not shooting cup/core bullets over copper bullets or vise versa w/o thoroughly cleaning. Neither like to follow one another for best accuracy. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Other than case length, prep and concentricity, have you checked the crown, done a chamber cast with cerrosafe to evaluate the throat, or used an OAL guage with your bullets, etc, etc. Some rifles just require more tinkering than others,some are in need of major work even out of the box while others shoot lights out on the first try. Frustrating! Fortunately my 300RUM groups well with almost all loads I've tried. Another rifle however, I had a particularly terrible time getting it to group, after truing and squaring receiver and barrel, setting back and hand finishing the chamber she works. Hope your bedding or other issues solve your problem before you get to the haeavy lifting. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I've only been able to shoot at 100 thus far. This may indeed be a factor, especially with the long 200 gn bullets. The barrel is definitely copper free. I've used JB a few times and use Sweets as well. The barrel cleans up fairly easily. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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The way I understand it the receiver sometimes contacts the stock bedding area in 3 or 4 places and makes the rifle sensitive to action screw torque. Skim bedding fixes this. I must say that I wasn't planning to have to fiddle with the bedding on a synthetic stock with an aluminum bedding block, but there you go.
US869 is a cannister powder, as are the others I mentioned, at least as far as I know.
Yes, haven't been doing that either. I've heard that can cause trouble. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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I've looked hard at the crown with a 10x handlens. It looks fine. No chamber cast. I do have a bullet comparator and I use it but so far I've just been loading to max length that allows function from the magazine. I usually don't mess around with seating depth until I'm fine tuning a load that already shoots well. Maybe some changes in OAL with the loads that shoot ok is in order just to see what happens. I hadn't really thought I was at that stage yet but who knows? Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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Hey Two tone, I sent you a PM. Did you get it? | |||
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skim bed the action, then try Retumbo and 200g Accubonds ........ works great for me 50bmg half inch holes ...... at long range! | |||
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Get the copper out of the barrel Free men should not be subjected to permits, paperwork and taxation in order to carry any firearm. NRA Benefactor | |||
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My Senderos have shot well from the box, but I have had some Remington barrels that have taken 150 plus rounds to break in completely. I had a classic in 300wby that would shoot nothing under 1.5" @ 100. It was bedded, squared, triggered and still wouldn't shoot. It was one last cleaning and load work up away from the sale block when I tried the then newish 150 grain Nosler ballistic tips. They squeezed into an inch. I messed with seating depth a bit and the groups shrunk. By the end of the summer I couldn't find a bullet that wasn't sub MOA with some posting half inch groups. I had a model 70 sporter varmint in 243 that was the same story a couple of years later. | |||
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Back atcha. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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Trust me, there is no copper in the barrel. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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It did occur to me that it might just need some shooting. The last group I shot was decent. Maybe I just need to keep at it. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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I have a friend whos Mod 700 300 RUM wouldn't shoot well at all when brand new....turned out he had been sold standard Leupold bases and rings under his 4.5-14 x 50 VXIII and the recoil had broken the front mount. The scope was still attached by the rear mount, but the front wandered around just enough to give 2-3 inch groups at one hundred yards..... The dual-dovetail rings solved the problem by being more durable. It was not a problem we had anticipated. I'd try another scope and/or mounts just to make sure before you do something drastic. Also, trying some good factory ammo as a baseline might be worth the time and money. Cheers, Dan | |||
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Great info so far. Sometimes it is more difficult than other times to get a new gun dialed in. I would continue shooting the most promising load without cleaning the barrel. Check to see if groups are getting larger or smaller. This might tell you if your barrel likes to be clean or fouled. I see too many people working on loads contiuously just to find out later that their rifle likes 10-15 round of copper build up in the barrel before it shoots. What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public. | |||
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2-T Well, I think you've already received a lot of good suggestions. I can't resist the temptation to add to your confusion even more. Firstly, I should say that I neither own nor shoot a .30 cal anything but want to try & help anyway. Usually, when I start working with a new rifle, I go to the Sierra book and begin with the bullet weight of my choice and the "accurate" powder & charge listed in the book. Don't know the bullet weight you want to work with but for a 180 gr. Sierra, the "accurate" charge & powder was 86.5 grs. of IMR-7828 for a listed vel. of 3100 fps. The OAL for these is listed as 3.575" for everything except the round nose which has an OAL of 3.550" If you want to shoot 165 gr. bullets, the "accurate" charge & powder in the Sierra book is 92.2 gr. of IMR-7828 for a listed vel. of 3300 fps. OAl on these is 3.575". Before I tried my suggestions, I'd check everything the others have mentioned especially the scope, action torque and then I'd apply some pressure as was mentioned before, under the forearm using a business card or 2. I'd try these suggestions shooting the most accurate load that you've come across so far. I would think that if everything is as they should be, your rifle should perform quite well withthe Sierra bullets/loads. If not, then I'd be looking at a new barrel. Hope this helps some. Bear in Fairbanks Oops!! Just read where you had tried IMR-7828. Maybe with Sierra's tho. BIF Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes. I never thought that I'd live to see a President worse than Jimmy Carter. Well, I have. Gun control means using two hands. | |||
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I have owned 3 Rem 700s. One 243 and 2 270s (one left handed for my older son). They all shot lights out, nickel sized groups at 100 yards after a little trigger work. I would call the Remington Custom Shop and ask them what they think. Like all gunsmiths, they're good guys. I think you're doing all the right things. I guess the only things I can think of that don't require rebedding, etc. is experiment with seating depth. I typically load about 1/8" from the lands. Second I would neck size only some rounds. Your chamber could be a bit sloppy and it doesn't help if the bullet is hitting the lands at an angle. Two cheap and essy things to try. Best of luck, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I took it out of the stock this morning just for a look. There are now visible marks where the action and stock are making contact. There are two knife edge bright lines on the bedding block about 45 degrees up each side from from the center and parallel to the barrel. These lines are on either side of the front action screw, are about 1.5" long and correspond to marks on the action. At the tang, there is a round contact mark on the stock material itself about the diameter of a pencil eraser. No contact on the aluminum block. The top quarter (next to the action) of the recoil lug is contacting the mating recess in the aluminum block. There are some narrow contact areas on the sides of the action just aft of the magazine well with the stock material. I would say some skim bedding is in order here. Should I bed the lug/front action screw area and the tang area only? Should I relieve the minor contact between the stock material and the sides of the action aft of the magazine well to free float the center of the action? It appears that this is the intended set up here anyway. Keeping in mind that the stock is synth and has an aluminum bedding block, I would think that this would be adequate. These marks were not visible the last time I had the rifle apart which might indicate that some movement is ocurring. To address some recent posts: I still haven't removed the scope. I do have the Leupold dual dovetail mounts and rings. Most of my loads have been 'Partial full length resized' ie. done with a full length die backed out one turn or so. I don't have a neck size die yet. Virgin brass was full length sized and fired with the bullet on the lands. Groups with each method were similar. Perhaps this barrel does need some fouling to settle down. It shot better at the end of the last session. I haven't shot it again since I started this post though. Thanks to everyone for the input. More suggestions are welcome, especially reagarding how or if I should proceed with the bedding. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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Rebed the rifle. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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Bobby Hart told me to not believe HS Precision's hype about a drop-in fit. He skim bedded my 700 long action with Bisonite and he also recommended 65 foot # action screw torque. I have no factory baseline as I provided the used action and stock, and he fit and chambered the Hart stainless barrel after truing the action. Your rifle might just need its barrel threads and bolt lugs trued also. At least in my experience, tiny group sizes never came easy or fell into my lap. | |||
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I bought a used 700 vssf in 22-250 that would just not shoot. The best I could get was 1 1/2 in groups at 100. I sent it out to my smith to get trued up crowned and chamber reamed to 22-250AI. He said the action was very good already but the crown was WAY out of round. It looked fine when I sent it out but you can't tell by looking at them. It now shoot .5 moa with a number of loads(all fireform loads too). I'd look at having it recrowned if I were you. It's a pretty cheap fix. My 700 in 300 RUM shoots awesome. It's just a SPS that I dropped in a HS stock. It shoots better at 200 than it does at 100. It shoots right at 1" at 100 but 3/4" at 200 and 1 1/2" at 300. | |||
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Two Tone, Sounds like the bedding will help. My 300RUM likes RL25 FWIW. Also you didn't mention how fast or how many shots your groups were? The 300RUM is an overbore SOB and barrel heating is a concern. Other than that, I can't help. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Twotone, My friend had a M700 PSS in 308 that just would not shoot. You have done all the things right it would seem to me. The gun may just need to be sent to a gunsmith to diagnose the problem. In my fiends case, only 1 lug was contacting, and the front mount screw would contact the bolt lug & cant it. There were scratches on the lug that was discovered by our gunsmith. Also looking through the bore with a bore scope - it was not pretty. It fouled a lot but shot OK. After all that he sold it and bought a HS and he's much happier now. regards, JohnT | |||
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I try Bedding it.. I did after I put a HS P/Series stock on my proven rifle.. After some range time it wasn't showing up with some of my proven loads for that Rifle.. It shot very well after Bedding .. More load development and it shot even better.. AK | |||
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Well, The bedding has been done and it turned out very nicely. The action wasn't in good contact with the stock, that's for sure. Just two lines in the front and one round patch at the tang. I'm just waiting now for a chance to shoot it again. I'll try to get a photo to post of my first bedding job.... I'm not going to touch the scope until I try shooting with the bedding job so I'll know if it made a difference. Blacktailer: I was shooting very slowly and using 3 shot groups. I had another rifle along to shoot while the RUM cooled down. I didn't let it get hot. John T.: I'll take a look at the front action screw just to be sure. Thanks. More to come... Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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My gut feeling here is that you just got a bad barrel which can certainly happen. I doubt Rem will do anything about it but try them. Any guess as to what the barrel on your rifle costs Rem to produce? | |||
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Two tone, It's not the action screw but the scope mounting screw. Look for scratches on the bolt lugs. regards JohnT | |||
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Thanks for the clarification John T. Fortunately for me there are no bolt lug scratches or projecting screws in this case. Reading the Instructions - a sure sign of weakness and uncertainty. | |||
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Two tone, I meant to post this sooner, but better late than never. My hunting partner has a 300 RUM also. We worked up loads with several powders already mentioned here and time and time again came back to H-1000. He is shooting the Berger 185gr over a copious load of H-1000 and it will shoot around 1" @ 300yds and has been under 8" at 1150yds more than once. Thing is most folks seat the Berger's into the lands, where he has them back almost .125" off. He just got frustrated one evening and decided to set the OAL to what was listed in one of his loading manuals and hasn't changed it since. The thing shoots awesome. Might be worht a try even if just a couple of rounds. Course now that you have it bedded that might have done the trick as well. Good luck, I hope you get a handle on it. Mike / Tx | |||
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