A few months ago, a JC Higgins Model 50 came my way, and became the basis of a project. As I took the old scope off, I wondered just how jaded we have become.

The old scope was fixed, probably 4x25, with uncoated optics. Was it a bunch better than open sight? No doubt. Would it bring home meat? I'm sure it would, and did. Today, it might be worth $5 for its nostalgia value.

So it makes me wonder: Just how far beyond basic necessities have we come?

I hear you
Been researching a new toy for quite awhile.
Stainless vs Blue
Wood vs Synthetic
New vs Second hand
calibres that differ in a few 100 fps or fractions of a bolt throw. Not to mention bullet size.

IMO if I spent more time and $ hunting and less time researching I wouldn't notice a difference

quote:

Originally posted by denton:So it makes me wonder: Just how far beyond basic necessities have we come?

Good question. Is the shooting brother and sisterhood any different than Joe middle class buying his kid a new car for HS graduation or his daughter a $3000 dollar wedding dress and a $20,000 wedding or his familly a new $23000 bass boat.Think back to the 40s and 50s or earlier.Necessity was clothing, feeding, sheltering and trying to get your kids a good education.

Well, Denton, affluance and greed have altered that substantially .Our needs don't change but our "I wants " do. Very little any more is "Good enough". I guess marketing would die if that were the case.

This is kind of a depressing post to end this day on. roger

I don't know. I still take my wife out for steak dinner almost every time I shoot a one hole group.

As far as "get the game guns", shotguns is where the stagnation has really taken place. Since the invention of the plastic wad, nothing has changed.

With rifles, we are still getting better, shooting groups as little as 3 inches at 1,000 yards. We are still getting better in that arena. But shooting a buck for the freezer, nothing new under the sun since the 8x57 110 years ago.... JMO, Dutch.

quote:

Originally posted by denton:
The old scope was fixed, probably 4x25, with uncoated optics. Was it a bunch better than open sight? No doubt. Would it bring home meat? I'm sure it would, and did. Today, it might be worth $5 for its nostalgia value.

I tend to agree with you, but if you were to hunt with that scope in the rain you might think $5 was extravagant.


Okie John

Who by´s the expensive stuff? Teenagers? No. Students? No. Women? Usually not.

So who´s left?

Answer: Middleaged guys like us who can now afford to spend a "little extra" on buying things we really like. The guy that originally bought that scope maybe did it just that way, it´s just that technology is now so much more advanced.

I remember being a teenager driving a beatup jalopy and seeing these balding fatguys in expensive sportscars -and it felt so wrong! I, then a young man, deserved a car like that. Why? I had the reflexes for it, the guts, the BABES!

Who´s the fat guy now?

Who owns things he really doesn´t need?

I do.

I think it´s mostly human nature needing things we don´t need.

I started out useing old weaver steel tubes in fix power. Did they work most of the time yes.

But the newer scopes are much better. I still have some of the old weavers around when I look through them compared to a new Burris or Leupold one sees how much scopes have improved.

Am I the only one here that doesn't mind materialism?

I remember mowing the yard with a manual reel mower; it sucked.

I remember watching a 19" black and white TV because that's all they made. It sucked too.

I remember our 1952 Chevy 4 door, flat head six 3-speed on the column no A/C family car. It not only sucked, it was a death trap by today's standards.

I remember when a color 19" RCA TV with remote sold for $800.00 on sale. And you had to twist the damn color knobs every third day to make it look half-assed realistic.

I remember when the only people who owned a boat of any type were rich.

I remember the feeling of luxury when we finally moved into a house with central A/C.

Those were the days to be depressed, not now. If you long for them you can make it happen. I know where you can get a '52 Chevy, a reel mower and a house with no A/C right now. I'll even throw in a $5 tinker toy rifle scope.

I don't even think of it as materialism, I think of it more as a reward system. We all(or most of us) work hard every day, why not have a little fun? I've seen too many people that have become tight asses, but what's the point? You can't take it with you.

quote:

Originally posted by MontMike:
I don't even think of it as materialism, I think of it more as a reward system. We all(or most of us) work hard every day, why not have a little fun? I've seen too many people that have become tight asses, but what's the point? You can't take it with you.

That's what it is for me. I'm retired, live alone, have no financial obligations, have a nice income.. So, I do reward myself with things I can afford. Many years I worked very hard so I wouldn't be a ward of the state during retirement. Rifles, scopes, etc are my passion. They call me to be. So, I feed the fire.
Like you say, I can't take it with me at the end of the trail. I'm 71 and that day may be soon.
Don

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Am I the only one here that doesn't mind materialism?

Like some of the other guys said--it's not materialism. We earned it.

I played by the rules: Spent years in school, work ridiculous hours, spend four hours travelling to and from work every day (it's bad enough I have to work in a NY City; no way on earth I'm going to live there), my wife and I saved and lived within (or below) our means for years to build up a safe cushion for retirement. Now, while I'm still young enough, I'm spending some money to hunt, fish and hike in the Rockies, Alaska, Canada and anywhere else fancy takes me. There are only a relatively few good years I can still count on, but I'm going to be a lot of years dead.

No shame in enjoying the fruits of our labors.

However, what bothers me are some of the people around me who whine that they can't make ends meet. We're not talking about people with low-paying jobs, but two-professional families with annual incomes in the $300,000-$500,000+ range who, after paying $1 million plus (sometimes multiples of that amount) for their city apartment, and a few hundred thousand more for their summer home, and $25,000 for their kid's private kindergarten class (every urban New Yorker knows that you'll never get Junior into Harvard if he doesn't start out in the "right" kindergarten--the fact that Junior is dumber than dogs**t and has the manners and discipline of a baboon is irrelevant), more for higher-level private schooling, untold thousands for foreign vacations, overpriced clothes and furniture and the "sensitive" young men from Greenwich Village who design/recommend it, etc., then run around complaining that they don't think that they can ever retire, because they have no savings at all (which is true surprisingly often) and that it's too expensive to live these days.

That's not a reward; that's not even materialism. It's just plain stupidity.

Materialism is not a negative reference except that modern socialism/communism defined it so. I don't allow those kinds of people to change my native language usage. It simply means the pursuit of things material like spiritualism is the pursuit of things spiritual. When applied to excess it becomes hedonism. Hedonism is not what I am supporting but then I suppose that line is different for different people.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Am I the only one here that doesn't mind materialism?

I remember mowing the yard with a manual reel mower; it sucked.

I remember watching a 19" black and white TV because that's all they made. It sucked too.

I remember our 1952 Chevy 4 door, flat head six 3-speed on the column no A/C family car. It not only sucked, it was a death trap by today's standards.

I remember when a color 19" RCA TV with remote sold for $800.00 on sale. And you had to twist the damn color knobs every third day to make it look half-assed realistic.

I remember when the only people who owned a boat of any type were rich.

I remember the feeling of luxury when we finally moved into a house with central A/C.

Those were the days to be depressed, not now. If you long for them you can make it happen. I know where you can get a '52 Chevy, a reel mower and a house with no A/C right now. I'll even throw in a $5 tinker toy rifle scope.

It wasn't that bad back then, all of my memories were good ones. Things were a lot simpler back then and I seriously doubt that all the things we can buy today have made us any happier. More comfortable perhaps but not happier.

quote:

I remember mowing the yard with a manual reel mower; it sucked.

I do recall that if you mow barefoot, and run a bee through the reel type mower, they tend to be crabby by the time you step on them.

To me, materialism is thinking that because you have more than someone else, you are a better person. That's a trap to stay out of. If your self image is tied to your wealth, you are setting yourself up for difficulty.

I have no problem at all with people spending their hard-earned money on the things that they want and enjoy, and I don't think that is materialism. I think that when you start spending money you don't have, to buy things you don't need, to impress people you don't like, then you are being materialistic.

I guess my last point was that we should use words for they mean, not each assign our own special meaning to the same word. That makes comprehension very difficult.

So, I'll rephrase. I don't miss the days of simpler technologies. For the most part the improvements don't make me happier. They give me more time to pursue those things and thoughts that make me happier.

They tend to be safer as well. Not always at a cost people like as in the automobile analogy but having a loved one survive an auto crash that was not survivable in a 1950s or 60s car should be repayment enough for anyone.

Cobra, its a matter of perception and remembrance. In what way was WWII or Korea or Viet Nam simpler than Iraq for the average American?

What is the difference between worrying about another terrorist attack or worrying about all-out nuke war in 1955?

Like I said, anyone can "check out" and return to simpler days but for some reason damn few find it practical. For me, life (meaning the world as it exists today) is about as good as it's ever been for more people than ever in the past. Hopefully it will continue to get better.

Your right Denton. It was always around clover that the bees hung out. My mom wouldn't let me mow barefoot, though.

I remember what a big deal it was when we got our first power mower. 1961 or 62. It was a Sears with a goofy wind-up sring that you wound up tight and flipped the handle over to spin the motor. That sucked too. A simple pull cord was way easier.

Huh. I still prefer the push mower, bees and all. When I was a kid Dad had a big old mower that must have come over on the Mayflower. I swear this thing was made out of oak. Handle came up to my forehead and boy did I work up a sweat pushing that thing around.

I hated the gas mower that replaced it right from the start. Even then it seemed slightly evil to disturb the morning calm with a roaring motor and a blue cloud, and the smell of freshly cut grass was replaced by the lovely aroma of stale and badly carburetted gas.

Hell, I'll bet you gas mower types prefer stainless and synthetic too! Heresy!

You know, that first power mower was heavier and harder to push around than the reel mower. And a good reel mower cuts the best looking lawns by far.

Problem is you just can't mow an acre of grass in Houston in August with a reel mower. Or maybe you can! Wanna come try?

quote:

Problem is you just can't mow an acre of grass in Houston in August with a reel mower.

You can if you have a 9 year old and a quarter. Well, maybe a twenty, these days.

Yeah, that's my problem, the kids are grown but they will ride the tractor for free. All it cost me was $1200 for the mower

Well, let's see... $1200 divided by $20, figure the lawn gets mowed once a week...

Oh hell. Just put down concrete.

The plan is to move somewhere else with no yard. Now that the kids are grown its all pain and no gain.

Come to Southern California. No one here has had a yard since 1978.

Nice guns are just that, nice. I like to go to the gun shop, and fondle that Weatherby or Sako on the wall. So shiny and sparkling. Deep rich blueing, so smooth you can see yourself. I like to throw it to my shoulder and get the feel of it. But than I walk to the used gun rack. I LOVE to pick up that old model 70. Look at the scratches and dents. All the pitting in the metal, and white floorplates from miles and miles of carrying. Than I try to imagine all the adventures that rifle has seen. The places it has been. The pleasure it brought the previous owner. nine times out of ten, I buy that used gun. Not that I couldn't afford the shiney new one, God bless plastic for that, it's just not the same. Old stuff has a soul. I hunt with an old 3x Weaver scope I pulled off a .270 I got from a friend. It was faded and sick looking. But it was still nice and clear to look through. A new coat of paint, and she has resided on many rifles, from .308 lever actions, .22 rimfires and a .338 for a time. The rifles have come and gone, but that scope I'll keep forever. And you know what? It'll probably out live me. I will be buying a new gun in a week or two. But it's going to be another N.E.F. cheapy single shot in 25-06. I'm really not that cheap of a guy, but I cant see myself dragging a $1500 rifle through the grass, mud and rocks, trying to put the sneak on a deer. Scratches in an old gun, I like. Me putting scratches in a brand new expensive gun, NO! I'll leave the character marks to the old/less expensive guns. J.M.O.

quote:

I don't even think of it as materialism, I think of it more as a reward system. We all(or most of us) work hard every day, why not have a little fun? I've seen too many people that have become tight asses, but what's the point? You can't take it with you.

Preach On!

quote:

Originally posted by denton:
So it makes me wonder: Just how far beyond basic necessities have we come?

That was the question.

It seems that instead of an answer to that question you are getting a bunch of rationalizations why people spend their HARD earned money on whatever they want. The word necessity is derived from the word NEED not WANT.

I worked in American industry for forty some years and only about 1 out of 10 people were HARD working and they were mostly on the lower end of the pay scale.

Anyhow that isn't part of the answer to the question. roger

Its not for me to define what is your necessity nor you to tell me what is mine.

Its not an answerable question unless you think your's is the only correct answer. Doh!

But answer it I will try! The basic necessity of hunting is a tall cliff and a match for a good grass fire. After that its all greed, sloth, over dependence on technology and a damn waste of HARD earned money.

Yep I like power mowers over reel type. Even better when my kids are pushing them.(I have used both)

I like Syt stainless rifle over blued and wood ones.

The good old days were good to me the days now are good to me. I have learned to take advantage of the improvements.

Post date June 30, 2050 by denton the third:

quote:

A few months ago, a Kimber 270 WSM came my way, and became the basis of a project. As I took the old scope off, I wondered just how jaded we have become.

The old scope was manual, probably a 3,5x10x50, with real glass optics. Was it a bunch better than open sight? No doubt. Would it bring home meat? I'm sure it would, and did. Today, it might be worth $500.00 for its nostalgia value.

So it makes me wonder: Just how far beyond basic necessities have we come?

It's all relative


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

"Back when a "ho" was a hoe, "Coke was a coke", and "cracked's" what you were doing, if you were cracking jokes" Back when a "screw was a screw, the wind was all that blew" and if you said "you're down with that it meant you had the flu."........I miss back when!!! Charlie (GHD)

My kids aren't going to grow up that way....today, #1 son spent 8 hours on the International in front of a 15' batwing bush hog and #2 son spent the day on the 4 wheeler spraying weed killer on the fence lines. I spent the day inside in the AC and surfing the web.....I knew I had kids for some reason!!!

...I miss "back then" too!!

quote:

So it makes me wonder: Just how far beyond basic necessities have we come?

So, to answer your question, we have come a long way!!! And, I like it.
Don

I lived back in those days of cheap scopes and rifles..the rifles were great, but I will assure you that scope was piece of crap when it was new, and it probably fogged a dozen or so times and who knows what else...Me, I appreciate the new scopes and I ain't jaded, just old and experienced, lost some good bucks from scope failure...

Weaver, kollmorgan and its kinfolk, Lyman, Leupold, they all fogged, sweated and went south back then..They came apart with recoil, and the cross hairs alway cuddled up in one corner or the other!!

Bought a marlin model 60 .22LR for 45 big ones at a pawn shop. Previous owner had carved his initials all over it. Sanded and refinished the stock, and have taken many many squirrels with that rifle.

How many of you have killed deer with a good ole .30-30???? I can proudly say that probably 80% of the deer I have taken were killed with one. No matter how much technology advances, the good old classics still get the job done.

When all you own is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.

Frankly I'm blessed to own more than just a hammer.

Maybe its time to rename the this thread "Real Men Use Old Tools"?

We had one of those "crank the handle" Sears mowers, and I liked it - we only had the one mower, so I had nothing to compare it to.

I now have all the rifles I could only afford to look at in Gun Digest back then. I like the trigger on this one, the safety on that one, and the graceful barrel shank on that one over there, so there's a reason for each one being where I can look at it.

Gotta admit, though, that I have more than I want to clean, so maybe I have "too many." I always thought of mayself as a "shooter," but maybe I've changed into a "collector" without noticing. It's hard to get rid of that trigger, or that safety, or that barrel shank, not because they shoot better particularly, but because I have memories of carrying them someplace special.

So, maybe I'm not even a collector, maybe I'm just sentimental. They're no longer just tools, but emotional sinks. I still keep looking for the "all-around rifle" they used to write about back then, though, probably because that's what I grew up reading. When I find it, will I get rid of everything else?

Jaywalker

Bah, I remember my first car a '59 Pontiac Starchief. It got worse gas mileage than my 2004 4WD GMC truck and had less horsepower even with its big 389 cu in V-8.

My first deer rifle was Remington 788 in 308, my other left handed choices were a 788 in 6mm and a Savage in 300 Savage. There was no way I could afford the LH BDL or Weatherby.

I'm much happier buying and building all of the lefties that I want now.

Yeah, my school car was a 59 Belair, inline 6, 2 speed powerslip. Dad said not to complain, cause the school bus would still make it this far out in the country! Paid way more for my used mower than that car. Course I think it's got more power, and those twin hydros sure get around better!