I have much to learn. I have been considering getting a .243 to back-up my 30-06. Reading what you have said, it sounds like an 06 is very hard to beat for a practicle HP rifle. So, for the un-educated; how light a bullet can I load and to what speed? How heavy can I go? What is the longest shot you would take at a white tail with an 06 and what is the biggest (baddest) animal you would hunt? In short, what is the gun capable of doing?

Thanks.

I have had great luck with this cartridge..I reload from 110gr to 180 gr in it.I shot a black bear with 220gr factory with little expansion and a little too big of a rush of adrenaline for me at ten feet.Had fantastic results with 165 gr interlock on deer at varying ranges.Had great results with 180 gr on moose.Took a nice one at 310 meters this fall.If you do your part,it does its part very well.

'06's are funny critters - sort of like an outwardly plain woman, who turns out to be the best wife a man could ever have.. ..you can use anything from 110 gr. to 220 gr. and do anything that needs doing in North America.

Longest shot? A dozen years ago, 420 paces, on a bull moose (I just couldn't get any closer, and I was prone and resting over a windfall). It staggered a few steps and fell, but required a killing shot. The 180 gr. Nosler Partition was under the hide on the far side, and broke the off-side shoulder getting there - it kind of angled in behind the near shoulder. Come to think of it, I have no idea why mostly use a .338 nowadays...they don't seem to end up any deader...

One thing to consider when you make the argument about shooting 110gr to 220gr bullets out of a 30-06 is there isn't a lot of rifles that will shoot well with that wide of a range of bullets. Out of the 3 that I've owned, they would shoot 150-180gr bullets really well, the 220gr would do ok (I always figured I would be fairly close if I was using a 220gr anyway)but none really liked the lighter bullets. I'm sure there are rifles out there that will shoot 110-220gr bullets and group well, but I think it's the exception and not the rule.

IMO, The .243 would be a great addition to your rifle battery. With those 2 rifles you could cover everything from P-dogs to Elk.

With my rifles, I usually find one load the gun likes and use it. I know it cuts down on the versatility of the rifle, but what I gain is familiarity and confidence in the gun. I think that's a good trade off.

I like the 165 gr or 180 gr weight bullets in my 30/06 if I want to shoot 120's or 110's I would choose my 6.5x55 swede but a .243 or a 6.5mm rifle would go well with your 30/06.

I don't find much use for bullets of less than 150 grains in a .30-06, nor of more than 180 grains.

With a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3000 fps, my son has taken several whitetails at 350 to 400 yards, typically one-shot kills. Several other spitzer "deer"-type bullets will do as well, depending on what your particular gun likes.

A 180 grain Nosler Partition at 2800 fps will take any North American game. Some people like the 200's. They're fine, but I don't see any real advantage in them and they give you a little less forgiving trajectory and a tad more recoil (and may be difficult to get the velocity you want if your magazine is one of the 3.35" variety).

If you want to shoot a coyote, the 150 does as well as any of the lighter "varmint" bullets. If you want to shoot prairie dogs, get yourself something with much less recoil that burns less powder.

That .243 you're thinking about will be a lot better for prairie dogs and an adequate back up for deer and antelope.

If I was limited to one gun to shoot Jack Rabbits to Elephant, it would be the 30-06..It will do it all in a proper rifle...mine will shoot any bullet to the same group and its about worn out..I don't use it much anymore mostly because I got bored with the same results, one shot, one kill.....

The truth is if one has an 06, he cannot justify the need for another gun, but we can't have that so I suggest you get a 250 Savage, 260 or 7-08, my favorite is the 7x57, for a light rifle, They just kills whitetails better than a 243 and certainly leave a better blood trail..

Keep in mind that it is a documented fact with Whites Laboratories, Rifleman Magazine and Winchester Arms, that more 243s blow up than all other calibers put together..This has been attributed to the use of 80 to 90 gr. bullets in shot out throats thereby getting double explosions of powder...Apparantly the bullet jumps and hits the rifleing bringing at the end of the erosion and it is brought to an abrupt stop and start, creating a pressure build up...

If I could only have 1 rifle it would be my 30-06. I've shot from 150gr to to 180gr bullets and taken deer and elk with it. But, like Ray said we simply can't have you running around with just 1 gun. Personally I like my 257 Ackley as my second gun. It's taken coyotes, antelope and deer at ranges of over 400 yards and done a great job. If you don't reload I would suggest a 257 Roberts or 250 Savage. They are both great deer calibers and will work well for varmints as well. I can't think of any rifle suitable for deer that I would want to hunt prarrie dogs with as you could end up shooting several hundred rounds in a day and after a while the recoil even with a 243 would get old. This is a job better suited for a 223.

If I was limited to one gun to shoot jackrabbits to elephant, it would be the 30-30. It will do it all in a proper rifle. Mine will shoot any bullet to the same group, and it too is about worn out. I don't use it anymore, mostly because I get bored with the same results, one shot, one kill...
The truth is, if one has a 30-30, he cannot justify the need for another gun, but we can't have that, so I suggest you get a 25-20,32-20, or maybe a 45-70. My favorite is the 6.5 carcano for a light rifle, That way I can take my own life with it and spare myself the extended misery of being stomped into the ground by the bull elephant I just pissed off because I read Rays post and thought my 06 could do it all. PLEASE just stop.

I have been shooting and hunting for around 45 years now and somehow have never owned an '06. How that could have happened can only be explained by inattention, I guess. However, I will be building one sometime in the next couple of years because it just seems necessary to have such a versatile caliber. Now if I was restricted to just one rifle, I'd personally choose a .375 but that can be explained by a lack of sufficient central nervous system to feel the extra recoil. Everyone else is better off with the old government round.

Don't think I'd want to try to take out an elephant by myself with an '06. But it sure does seem like an excellent choice for a osft-recoiling all-around NA gun.
Your gun may not like a particular bullet, but there's so many to try, surely you can find something you like in at least 150, 180 and 220gr.
Speer says 59gr of IMR 4064 gave their 100 gr SP 3400 fps muzzle speed.
Problem is, as Atkinson alluded, it can be a little harder to "justify" the next gun.
Do yourself a favor, and get either a rifle that's too light for something, or too heavy for something, so you have somewhere to go.
Or you'll end up with a .22, '06.

Ok, I know this thread is about the need of a 243 and a 30-06, but why would anybody say the 30-06 is best for the one rifle/one world battery?? Wouldn't being overgunned for the rabbits be a tad more wise than using a deer/elk rifle for the largest animal in the world? Some people here may not know better and actually believe what you say. I'd like you to elaborate on your past hunts for elephant with the mighty 30-06, that would be great. Details, like the rifle, load, and range, angle, etc.

[ 05-07-2003, 00:55: Message edited by: todbartell ]

Seems to me I recall Jack O'Conner's wife Elenor using 220 grain solids in an 30-06 and winding up with one dead bull.

Jeff

Don't forget about all of those elephants that Bell killed with the 7x57 mauser and 175 grain solids.

I'm sure the 30-06 with 220 grain solids would be just as effective. Is it the ideal elephant rifle? I would say no (but my .416 Rigby is ). However, an accurate 30-06 in the hands of an experienced hunter (someone who knows elephants and can accurately place brain shots) can definately kill elephants.

Tim

I've used the .30-06 with 220 Hornady Solids (no longer made) on hippo culls. As long as you brain em it's all over. If you don't brain em it COULD be all over too

Rich Elliott

[ 05-06-2003, 18:08: Message edited by: Rich Elliott ]

I have witnessed the 30-06 being used on elephant culls and what I saw was pretty amazing..I think Americans get carried away with caliber, bullet weight and so fourth...

consider this, a 30-06 with a 220 Woodleigh solid has a sectional density of .331 at a velocity of 2400 plus FPS, that is a usable rifle on elephant and I know a lot of young African boys that shot their first elephant with such a load in that caliber..It is used more than most realise.

An elephant is not a Sherman Tank ( I know I just dated myself) but a 30 caliber hole in an animals brain is every bit as deadly as a .800 caliber size hole or a 2 foot hole for that matter...

It also might take away the tendency to take chancy shots and make you a better hunter and make you place your shots with utmost care!! I might add just like you should do with ANY caliber....

I have shot a few Buffalo with an 8x57 and military ball ammo, and one with a 30-06 using both military ball and PMC as I recall....also the 7x57 and 308...I prefer the 416 given my druthers..I know a fellow who shot an elephant with a 308 solid in the shoulder and that bull bled like a stuck hog for about 200 yards and keeled over stone dead...I could go on and on of such incidents that I am aware of...Most Africans take this sort of stuff for granite, Americans act like it is the wonder of wonders.

The point is I could get by with an 06 properly loaded and never look back anywhere on earth if I had to..

Ray,

Out of curiousity would you place the 7mm Rem Mag as versatile as the 06? It musy come pretty close with 175/190 Grain decent projectiles.

Ray, your comment on the '06 for killing elephant is very interesting. W.D.M. Bell, who as you know killed so many elephant with the 7X57, once opined that the .308 Winchester might just be the best of all possible ivory hunter cartridges because it could be used in a short action, making bolt manipulation faster. He proposed loading it with a 220 grain solid at around 2200 to 2300 FPS for this purpose.

There are valid reasons for having a 243 in addition to a 30-06.

Less recoil
Back up for deer if you drop your 06 or otherwise damage it
Less fiddling with sights

If at some point you are going to get a 223 or similar you could consider something like a 260 or 6.5x55 that would increase the back up factor to elk/moose.

It can be an excellent idea to get the same make, model of rifle and scope so that you are as familiar with on as t'other.

I suppose I could say that a 222 is all I would ever need for north american game too, but that also would be a "stunt", right, Ray??
Trigger

You cant go wrong with the 30/06,you can load it down to,a 30/30 class round.Or load it up right behind the magnums,with 150gr bullets.

The lightest my '06 likes to go with full speed loads is Hornady 130's. The problem is that there is such a wide variation in POI that resighting is definitely needed. I have a friend who set out to try to come up with some .308 WIn loads that would all hit the same POI for some of the lighter bullets. I don't think he has had much luck. As for me I just stick with one bullet weight: 180. I load Game Kings for general use and Partitions which hit the same POI if I ever get that moose tag. Sean

No .30 caliber bullet under 150 grains has a B.C. high enough for long-range velocity retention, or an S.D. high enough for anything bigger than a coyote. Stick with 150 to 220 grain bullets in the '06!!

I own a 6mm Remington and a 30-06. The 6mm is just a tiny bit more than the 243.

As you are seeing the 30-06 is an all around gun. I handload 22 caliber sabots and can out shoot a 220 swift with it. Loaded with 110grn and light loads, you can plink all day and not feel any recoil. For most hunting I prefer a 180grn Nosler partition. If was going brown bear hunting and only had the 30-06, I would use a 220grn bullet.

To my mind, out to about 250-300 yars with a 180grn and you will nail a deer or elk.

Every place I have ever hunted, I can walk into even a general store and buy a box of 30-06.

The 243 is very different. I would not try for anything bigger than a deer with it. With 243 you can expect a very accurate rifle. The recoil is nothing compared to the 30-06.

Pete

Dingo,
Yes the 7 mag with 175 gr. solids would be the same for all practical purposes..

Trigger Happy,
Considering the original question we are not talking about stunts, rather the discussion is about circumstances. That would take it out of the stunt catagory and put it into a necessity catagory..Of course for me to go shoot an elephant today with a 06 would be nothing more than a stunt because I have options....

There are many things to consider if one was dumped in the middle of the world on foot and only had one rifle and ammo..Mine would be a 30-06 with 220 gr. solids from a survival standpoint. It would be a compromise and not the best choice for anything but the best for all....
light ammo, light gun, solids will kill ANY animal and softs wont...and on and on...

And thats just my argueable opinnion and if you put me where there are no Lions, Buffalo and elephant, I would be happy with a 222....

Well, the original question on the 06 was how far of a shot on whitetail, and whats the biggest, baddest critter one would attempt to shoot with one, not a survival standpoint of what gun would one want if he were the last person on earth, for everything.
Obviously the 06 is holier than thou in your eyes, so to drag this out is very useless.
If you ever out walking and happen to fall down a hole into the lost world of lawless lions and elephant with your 06 in your hands, good luck, and farewell. Hope your insurance is paid up.

Triggerhappy2,

OK, I'll buy that.

Personally, I started with a 30-06 when I was 10 years old. I have used mostly 165 gr Speer hot cores for years, lost count of how much meat I have brought home.

The American Custom Gummakers Guild firearm project # 21 which will be raffled 2006, is a 30-06.

It is a highly worked over Pre 64 M 70. Custom guard, Krieger barrel, quarter rib, band ramp front sight. Detachable scope rings with square bridge stlye bases, two Leupold scopes. A steel buttplate and grip cap.

I did the metalwork, Kent Bowerly is the stock maker, Sam Welch is doing the engraving, in a case by Huey.

"There ain't many problems a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty aught six."

J Wisner,

Those guild guns are awesome. I was in on the Springfield 35 Whelen raffled earlier this year. Even got to hold it once. I was anxious about the drawing for months and was disappointed when my number wasn't drawn. Did you work on that one? You are doing what I always dreamed of doing with my life, at least until I got sucked into the 'slave' workforce. That regular paycheck is way too 'comfortable', I guess. That excuse is getting weaker as I get older. During last week's round of layoffs I found myself wishing to be chosen.

Live well

Thanks for all of your coments. As I said in my initial post, I am pretty inexperienced when it comes to HP rifles. For the record I like my Ruger M77 and have found it to exceed my expectations of accuracy. While I have had the gun for 10-years, I doubt that I have more than 100-rounds through it - hence my lack of experience. It is not that I think the 06 is the ultimate caliber, but it is my primary HP rifle now. I am sure I will add a heavier caliber if I find myself planning a trip to Alaska and I will certainly do so if I ever head to Africa. One more thing, I know the answer to my questions are directly related to how much/often I shoot the gun.

[ 05-19-2003, 16:07: Message edited by: Doublegun ]