quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The fly in the ointment here is barrel twist, many .358s will not shoot the 275 to 310 gr. bullets, All 9.3s will shot 230 to 320 gr. bullets well...at least that's been my experience with the 358 Win and the 35 Whelen, and a gob of 9.3s...

Personally I believe the lack of stabilizing heavy for 35 caliber bullets is a valid point.

To the novice the difference in cross section of a bullet can't possibly be meaningful in stopping or killing power, when in truth most experienced DG hunters and PHs consider it very meaningful to killing effect on animals, especially the large and dangerous kind....I always consider cross section of bullet, weight of bullet, and construction of bullet, to decide what caliber I will hunt DG with, and also animals like Moose, elk, Eland, Giraffe etc. I also firmly believe that cross section of bullet is vital to better blood trails.

The difference in cross sectional area also has some validity, but only when that difference is meaningful and significant .That difference between these two calibers is slight to meaningless.

roger

Roger,
The difference is slight between any of the big bores, but it exists and comparing my favorite, a 404 or 416 to a 458 Lott for instance or even a 458 Win. the observed knockdown on big animals is obvious, and I can see it between my 9.3x62 and a .375 also. You can see it when the bullets strikes...

That does not necessarily mean one caliber kills better or faster, only that it has a bigger punch and starts out with a bigger hole, more blood letting...The 45 calibers just make an animal shutter and hump..Just my opinnon however, nothing scientific to back it up..

thus comes the "stopping rifle" comparison to the rifle that kills an animal if all goes as planned..

Is all this valid, many believe so, most PHs in Africa place a lot of value on cross section and bullet weight..I am inclined to lean that direction, but I am fully convienced that a well placed and well constructed bullet from a medium bore gets the job done, its those "instance" that create these posts and I don't make a living waiting for a charging animal, but if I did I would absolutely pack all the cross section I could handle.

I believe it all depends on the niche in your battery. If you want 225gr to 250gr with 06 type trajectory, then get the 35 whelen or even flatter, get the Norma. But if the niche you want to fill requires 250gr or heavier, then the 9.3 is obvious. One often sees 9.3 guys chipping in on whelen or 338 06 conversations, but then on another thread, they're asking where to get lighter bullets.
And, for DG, please get something bigger. If you can afford a buff, you can afford a 404 or at least a 375.
We all have different batteries and, they do tend to change with time, but the only caliber I've ever been married to has been my 35 whelen. If I still lived in Africa and could only have one gun, the 9.3 it would be.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
The only difference I can think of is bullet weight because of twist rate. I have 9.3x62 & a 350 Rem Mag which are very similar in case capacity. The 350 is 1 in 16 which is common so 200-250 grain bullets vs 232-320 for the 9.3.

Lot of good comments but I think this one nails it. roger

What I really like about my 358 Win is that it shoots 200 to 225 grain projectiles very accurately and at a velocity that works well for the caliber. What I like about my 9.3x62 is that it really shoots 250 grain to 286 grain bullets really well. I enjoy both rifles and would never try to compare the performance of either rifles. Both have their place in my gun safe and I'm happy to own them.

I like both calibers. The .358 because I have lots of Lake City empties in 7.62x51. I use the Remington bulk 200 gr in RN or pointed as needed. But I have two 9.3 x 62 and one x 57. I like them all for different reasons.l

I see a 270win as a 30-06 with a light bullet
A 35 Whelen as a 30-06 with a heavy bullet.
This combo is arguably better on both extremes than a 30-06 with two loads, or two identical rifles with different loads. On each end of the spectrum of this niche application they do the jack of all trades job of the 06 a little better. Let's not make them what they are not.
Since the advent of the beltless 375's however, I find it hard to justify the 9.3x62 apart from the possible cool factor. The niche of the 375 it almost fills, the heavy end of the 06 niche.....entering into another class...not quite this, not quite that.....dunno if being cute gives it a good place in a battery, unless it's a one gun plains game battery where nasty stuff might lurk.

Boet, makes a lot of since in his posts..

I use my 35 Whelen for deer, elk and Moose. I use my 9.3x62 for Buffalo, Brown Bear and deer elk and moose.

My favorite gun therefore is my Jack Haugh 35 Whelen with 225 gr. Noslers at 2600 plus some., My favorite caliber is the 9.3x62 with 286 gr. bullets at 2550 FPS to make it Zim legal and the 320 gr. Woodleigh at 2350 plus FPS in its 26 inch barrel..Need the long barrel with most 9.3x62s to get that velocity, but some 24 inch guns will getcha there.

But I just sold my solid rib half oct/half round 9.3x62 so guess I'm now an official 35 Whelener, at least until I can build another 9.3x62 and I have just the action for on, or maybe a 64, we will see?

Ray, why don't you build a whelen with a 1/12 barrel so you can shoot the heavy bullets. The 1/16 twist just castrates the whelen.

In a modern, strong bolt action that chambers a .338 WM AND a 9.3 X 62, you can safely load them to the same psi.

With some modern medium-slow powders, such as 2000 MR and RL-17, you can about match a factory 9.3 X 64 Brenneke.

And that's not theory or smoke, that's hard reality. Loaded that way, the 9.3 X 62 is not the same rifle-cartridge of bygone days.

A .35 Whelen is only comparable if you "hot load" the Whelen and down-load the 9.3 Mauser. And that's from experience.

Barrel length, psi, primer, powder and COL are ALL major factors.

A .35 Whelen case holds 72grs water whereas a 9.3 X 62 holds 77 on average. And the 350 Rem is about 74 grs.

I could get 2600 fps from 250s in my Whelens but my 9.3 X 62 will give well over 2700 fps. Barrel lengths were/are 22" for Whelens and 22.5" for the 9.3 Mauser.

RL-15 was best in the Whelens with 250sand RL-17 is best in the 9.3 X 62 by quite a margin over RL-15 employing 286s.

In effect, my 9.3 will fire a 286gr at about the same speed (or slightly better) than my Whelens would fire 250s. The 286 has an SD of .305 (same as a 300gr from a .375) and the 250gr .358 has an SD of .279. As far as bullet construction is concerned, both have the best bullets available and equal cost.

I respect the Whelen, but the 9.3 X 62 has become my favorite medium, though I've owned, loaded and used .338 WMs, a .340 Wby, .35 Whelens and .350 RMs, as well as three .375 H&H's.

Bob Mitchell

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
A 9,3 is legal for dangerous game in some african countries where the 35 is not in any african country

.................Case closed!

All I will say in this matter is this: if it takes another .008" and another 100 fps to make the difference, I just won't hunt them... I simply refuse to believe I cannot take my 300-grain original Barnes bullets in my Whelen and kill anything on the African continent.

But maybe I am horribly wrong...

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
I am SOON to take possession of my 9.3x64. 232 Normas for plinking, varmints, et al, 250 Accubonds for deer and antelope and 286 North Forks for real work.

You might try the 250 gr TSX or TTSX. So far everything I've shot at with my 64 has been a 1 shot kill with a good wound channel but NO radiating blood shock. . I've got them leaving the 21.5" barrel at a mild 2750 fps.
Other than true Long range. I see no need for a heavier bullet in Alaska. I would like to try the 250 gr TTSX tho. See how the rifle works at truly long range.

Phil must b guiding fishermen right now or he would no doubt add his real world experience. Personally I don't see a spits worth of difference between the 2 if they both have 1 in 12" or faster twist barrels. . Brown bear seem to require the exact same number of shots from both carts. Given similar bullet weight, construction and velocity.
Usually 2-4 shots regardless whether its a good 250 grain bullet or a 310-320 grain bullet. And not suprisingly that is the same average #of shots that the 338 Win Mag and 375 HandH or Ruger use for keeping a brown bear still. .

However, the 35 Whelan will be cheaper to play around with if you want to plink with 200 grain bullets unless u cast then they are about the same again.
The old timers called the 35 Whelan, The poor mans 375 for very good reason.

I bought my 9.3X62 mostly because I'm getting old and I wanted one. It is the only "African" rifle I own, strictly a fantasy purchase because I will probably never go to Africa. My 9.3 is accurate with factory ammunition and is probably the easiest cartridge to work up accurate handloads for I have ever owned. It is really fun to shoot and with cheep PRVI 286gr bullets (loaded full power of course) it makes a good plinker. I haven't shot anything with mine, but a friend shot a bull elk and a good sized muledeer with his; the Hornady 286 gr interlocks recovered looked like they could be used in a magazine add. One shot each.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
All I will say in this matter is this: if it takes another .008" and another 100 fps to make the difference, I just won't hunt them... I simply refuse to believe I cannot take my 300-grain original Barnes bullets in my Whelen and kill anything on the African continent.

But maybe I am horribly wrong...

Doubless, you are correct about the Whelen being able to work, but in most countries it is not legal. I've shot a buffalo with a 338WM and it did great, and I would do it again if something bigger was not in arms' reach.

To have a legal license written you will often need a .375". The 9.3 is NOT legal in Tanzania.

Hey, there were days when a .4" calibre was necessary.

If one were searching to fill a gap between some sort of 7mm and a 404 say, I think virtually anything from 338 to 9.3 could be handloaded to serve the purpose give or take a bit of holdover. Fit and finish, good lines and balance are more important than splitting hairs, and in the end, it's the rifle itself that will choose the best bullet weight for that rifle, and a good shooter can accommodate that.The beauty of the bigger mediums is the quicker demise of the animal and minimilized need for tracking, and I won't piss on someone else's choice. I chose the whelen because I had a big bore and the math seemed right for my purpose, and I got lucky with a pretty rifle.

Not to be contentious or anything but I hear over and over that the .35 Whelen with a 1:16 twist will not stabilize any bullet over 250 grains.
My Remington 700 Classic .35 Whelen with a 1:16 twist shoots 300 grain Barnes Originals often into .75" at 100 yards at 2150 fps. For all you wags out there, that's a .75" four-shot group, not .75" for one shot! I'm sure it could develop more velocity easily but the load is one I put together to use that last of a can of IMR4895.
Just a small point.
On the original question, if I was never planning on going to Africa, I would choose the .35 Whelen. If Africa was one the hunting menu, I would choose the 9.3x62.
Ironically, on my trek to Zimbabwe, I chose my .35 Whelen as I had no time to work up loads for my CZ 550 Lux 9.3x62. It struck like lightning on impala, wart hogs, and kudu. My PH was very impressed.

I have never met anyone who had a whelen that would not stabilize the heavier bullets, I tend to think that it might have been a problem once or twice back in the day when those heavier projectiles were traveling a bit slower due to less developed propellant, and just got repeated as lore. BUT, in any event, also a product of back then, heavy bullets were needed simply because they held together better, long enough to penetrate deeper. With today's bullets this is no longer necessary, so we can benefit from flatter trajectory with the same penetration as heavyweight bullets while using 225gr pills. This is what makes the whelen a niche cartridge. Bigger is not always better anymore. Old cartridges become new cartridges as components develop, but the old tales still abound.
Still, it's all interesting to hear the different perspectives.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
A 9,3 is legal for dangerous game in some african countries where the 35 is not in any african country

.................Case closed!

Well, I keep hearing this so often, that I looked up the reference section on African Hunting by Saeed/505ED and it states that the following countries have NO restriction on caliber for hunting DG or Big Game:

Benin
Burkina Faso
Cameroon
Ethiopia
Mozambique

The following do not have caliber restrictions but energy requirements:

Namibia (5400 Joules) smallest caliber 7mm
So. Africa (most areas none, but some 375)

I don't know if the above information is correct. It's just what I read on this forum in that "information" section.

For a poor farmer in Africa with one rifle, it was nice that the 9.3 could be counted on to take dangerous game under ideal circumstances. A game warden would use one unless very sure of circumstances and, really, if you can afford a DG hunt in this economy, then you can afford a DG rifle a bit more suited to the task, surely?

This summer, I will be taking a three rifle battery (a 40, 30, and 20 caliber) to Zambia to hunt with Andrew again:

404 Jeffery
35 Whelen
7mm Rem Mag


I will be legal for Buffalo, and I think the 35 Whelen will be perfect for the other non-dangerous smaller game. The 7mm will be for Kafue Lechwe if we get a crack at them.

My 35 Whelen is a Dakota Classic Deluxe with a 23", 1 in 12" twist barrel. It shoots 250s into 1/2" groups consistently @ 100 yds and easily stabilizes 275 Barnes solids, 280 SAFs and both 310 Woodleigh softs and solids. It's apparently not legal for DG in Zambia, except Lion and Leopard (30 cal. Min.), but I'd shoot a Buffalo with it if it was, with any of the 275s and heavier bullets.

However, that's the job for the 404!!

I CAN'T wait...

Perfect! And your battery is the same as mine, sorta
404
35 whelen
270 win
Well those are my favorites and make the most sense to me. I hope you have a fantastic safari, and keep us informed when you return

Thanks boet.

And I think you have a perfect three rifle battery as well!

Have you taken your 35 Whelen to Africa? If so, what have you taken with it?

Black and blue wildebeest, bushbuck, kudu and blesbuck, with the 35. Gemsbuck I took with a 7mm rem, springbuck and blesbuck I took with a 6.5 swede. All of those same animals I have shot also with a 303 Brit, so I don't have an issue with holdover. You will be fine with your choice of caliber so for Africa, in fact I don't think you need to take the 7, unless you want to. The whelen does it all so well, and using the 404 on large game is rewarding also, as you can basically take a shot from any angle and you will reach the vitals. Just picture the organ you want to hit and your bullet will reach it. On medium to kudu sized game, the same applies with the whelen, you can hit a kudu in the boiler room thru his ass if that's the shot he gives you.

Those calibre cover the bases.

You could do a lot of hunting.

I've been partial to
416Rigby (2825fps, 350gn.)
338WM (2835fps, 225gn)
270Win (2900--3100fps)
(though we currently do not have a 270 in Africa)

Let's see, those flavors are
light (on the heavy-side of light)
medium (medium medium)
heavy (light-side of heavy)

Carmichael once wrote a piece on three calibre to hunt the world and chose a 280, 338WM, and 458WM.
(Not bad choices either.)

Yes, good choices, for planned hunts, and a good medium for those uncertain of what you'll find hunts. I only mentioned the 303 because the whelen is called a medium range round.....pulease

When I hunted with Andrew last year, I took the 404 and a 338 WM. Very similar to the 416 & 338 combo. Both are a great 2 rifle battery IMO.

Boet, you and I both see the 35 Whelen as much more than a brush rifle. I shoot Nosler Custom 250 gr. NP at 2550 fps for longer ranges, and the trajectory is almost identical to a 180 gr. 30-06 at 2700 fps. I consider my 35 Whelen a 300+ yd. rifle, just as I do my 30-06.

I have never taken a 35 caliber to Africa (usually a 338 or 9.3x62), so I am very excited to do so this time. I've owned this Dakota 35 Whelen for 10 years and never taken it.

Yes, I guess I could leave the 7mm at home, but my wife accompanies me, and two rifle cases therefore are not a problem. I understand a 400 yd shot is not out of the question on the Kafue Flats, so I thought I'd bring it along. The more the merrier...

3983 Ft Lbs is the equivalent of 5400 joules

There isn't a common factory 9.3x62 listing this much energy in a 286 is there?

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
3983 Ft Lbs is the equivalent of 5400 joules

There isn't a common factory 9.3x62 listing this much energy in a 286 is there?

Not to my knowledge, but perhaps the 9.3x66 (370 Sako) does. In COTW it's listed at 4125 ft. lbs.

Not sure of that at all. I think the rule of thumb is to take with you at least a 375, a 400 is generally preferred BUT if you have a capable medium with you when you encounter some DG on your list unexpectedly and, if your guide is not a dick and he trusts your aim, he will let you use it. Many buff have been shot in these circumstances with 338 cal 300 win even. It sure don't hurt to have an adequate caliber as your PG rifle, even if it's not legal on DG. treating guides and rangers in a friendly manner goes a long way too. Passing up a trophy of a lifetime because you're carrying the wrong rifle that day must really suck, and the pro's know that, and are reasonable.

Last year I carried the 404 and my wife the 338. This year she'll carry the 35 Whelen.

It's nice to have BOTH while one hunts.

I highly recommend taking the Mrs. along!!

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
Last year I carried the 404 and my wife the 338. This year she'll carry the 35 Whelen.

It's nice to have BOTH while one hunts.

I highly recommend taking the Mrs. along!!

Amen. The Mrs. should be part of the package, especially if you want some shared fireplace reminiscing when at home.

And the 338 is a great ladies' gun. Men, too.
We might need to remove the 1/4" spacer this year on our 338 for the missus.

And while bracketing the 358-366 discussion--

The 338 and 404 make a fine combo.
Sort of like a modern 338 416Rem.

Have you handloaded the 404 to see what it can do? Ammoguide doesn't list many loads.

I'm guessing that the 404Jeff will do 400grains at 2500-2550fps. 350gn at 2700-2725? But most people with 404's tend to go traditional velocities (=416Rem//416Ruger).

416 Tanzan:

No, I do not reload. I shoot factory ammo, or have either Superior or Dakota load for me if I need a particular load/bullet.

But I like the 404 Jeffery for just the reasons you mentioned, besides its great history as well. With the size of that case, as you said, it should surely be able to load up to 2500 fps if desired, if the 416 Rem/416 Ruger case can produce 2400 fps. I also like the gentle feeding shape of the case, and the fact that it is virtually the same length as a 375 H&H, so it fits nicely in a 375 action.

Considering all the above, I had Dakota build me my 404J on their Safari model, which is smaller than their African action/model, and the result was a rifle that weighed 8.5 lbs with a slim grip and forend that fits my small hands. The African is too large for my hands, and weighs over 9 lbs.

Velocity-wise, I told Ward Dobler at Dakota to load 400 gr. SAFs at 2300 fps to match the factory Hornady ammo that I shoot for practice. For solids, I use the Hornady DGS for hunting. The 2300 fps is not as fast as the 404s potential, but not as slow as the historic velocity (2125) that it made its reputation on. I am happy.

Surefire7
Might I suggest that when you get back from Safari, you don't leave the 404 on the rack. It makes a perfect companion for your 358. With starting loads, you can keep the 404 as your open sights rifle for everything. It will be good for any game the 45-70 is good for, and will keep you enthused. The 35 whelen can be your scoped rifle for everything. Your 7 you can keep as your mountain rifle, and you're done. Didn't mean to divert the thread, but had to say that. Good hunting with your thumpers.

quote:

Originally posted by steyrsteve:
Not to be contentious or anything but I hear over and over that the .35 Whelen with a 1:16 twist will not stabilize any bullet over 250 grains.
My Remington 700 Classic .35 Whelen with a 1:16 twist shoots 300 grain Barnes Originals often into .75" at 100 yards at 2150 fps.

Walk another 100 yards from the target and try again. A Rem BDL I borrowed would shoot quite well with the Woodleigh 310gr soft, but tipped a few at 200yards. Yes I know, that's a long way away for a bullet designed for brush use, but it duplicated the reports from Finn Aaggard when he tried the same. What do you think an even longer 310gr FMJ might do? From a 1:14" 358Win, the 310s tip at 100yards in my experience. If you feel the need, a faster twist also allows custom 250gr + monolithics to be tried. Anyway, its all good fun and no matter the twist a suitable projectile can be found, but I prefer 1:12" in most my 35s ... and that's 6 at last count with twists from 1:12" through to 1:16". I kind of like how the 35s with 250gr seem to be aimed at the same game as the 9.3s with 286gr ... just goes to prove the 35s are just that bit more efficient in materials.
Cheers...
Con

Boet:
That's an interesting idea with the 404 open sights. I once had a Marlin 45-70 but sold it. I guess the 404 could take its place, especially since mine only weighs 8.5 lbs. Use the 35 Whelen with its scope. Thanks!

Con:
On another thread here, Cold Trigger Finger mentioned that the Ruger Hawkeye 35 Whelen has a 1/12 twist. I measured mine (all 3) and sure enough, they all had 1/12. I then measured my Ruger Mark II 35 Whelen and it was 1/14. My 35 Whelen Ruger Hawkeye prints perfectly round holes at 200 yards with Double Tap 310 Woodleigh ammo. Considering the above, of course, why wouldn't it.

Addendum: I just measured my Ruger No.1 in 35 Whelen. 1/12.

My question: where did this rumor of 1/16 twist for Ruger rifles start? NONE of my Ruger 35s has a 1/16. I do not own an old Mark I tang safety, so I can't comment on them. However, I know a lot of you folks down under love the 35 Whelen and I was wondering if any of guys might have one of these tang safety Mark Is and could measure one to see if it is indeed a 1/16?

Just a little. roger

Roger:
Sorry if I was hijacking your thread. Please accept my apologies.

Since the topic was 358 vs. 9.3, I thought the twist rate of the 35 Whelen kinda fit in the thread.

Anyway, I'll stop posting on this thread. It's a good one!

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
Roger:
Sorry if I was hijacking your thread. Please accept my apologies.

Since the topic was 358 vs. 9.3, I thought the twist rate of the 35 Whelen kinda fit in the thread.

Anyway, I'll stop posting on this thread. It's a good one!

really no problem. Thanks for participating. roger