I just acquired a Shultz and Larson mod 60 in 7x61 s&h, the barrel is marked 1 in 10 twist. The rifle belonged to a man who hunted all over the world chasing sheep and goats, from what I understand he killed a Marcopolo sheep and the grand slam of sheep several times with the rifle. I also got over 500 once fired and over 100 new brass with it so I should have enough to last awhile.

Do any of you gentle men have any loads you should like share?

I always thought the 7x61 was just about the ideal capacity for the 7mm. The load I have is from years back around 70 grs of MRP and 140 Noslers.

I would look to RL22 and Imr 7828. Pretty much a full case with 140s & 160s

You have a fine rifle and the 1 in 10 is a plus as some 7x61s were made with 1 in 12.

There are actually two 7x61 cartridges. When the 7mm Remmag came out, S&L enlarged the inside dimensions of the cartridge to match the 7mm RemMag ballistics. The larger cases were marked (headstamped) "Super".

Here is a link to some loading data:

http://www.ballisticstudies.co...61+Sharpe++Hart.html

Few today realize and appreciate that the S&L rifles, due to their rear locking design, had a shorter bolt throw than a Mauser derived bolt action.

"Back in the day", I had a bunch. A 378 Weatherby that used the 54/6 action, a 60 in 7x61 and several of the M65 DL models in 264, 7x61, 308, 30-06, 300 Norma Mag and 358 Norma mag.

They were all MOA rifles whose only defect was the recoil pads became rock hard as they aged.

With todays much improved bullets, especially the mono metals, a 140 gr can easily reach 3200 fps and will handle anything in N.A. but the big bears.

RL 22, 25, 4841, W780, 7828, H1000 will all work fine in the 7x61. The target and the chrongraph will tell you what is best.

Now there is a 97DL which is a complete redesign and, sadly, not available here.

http://www.schultzlarsen.com/R...letestSandLM97DL.pdf

(The NZ dollar is 80 cents U.S.)

You done good. There was a time when they were cheap ($500) as everyone "knew" the 7mm RemMag was better.
Those days are gone. Here's a "reasonable" 60, note the 1 in 12 twist.

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100347369

This rifle has so much history, I just hope that it brings me the hunting memories that it gave its former owner.

I do have data in some of the reloading manuals I have I can check. I think you will enjoy it.

You have got yourself one of the best rifles and cartridges there. Below is my all time favourite load for my Schultz and Larsen M60 that I owned for years and shot hundreds of head of game with. It was extremely accurate and consistent with the Sierra boat tails being superb performers at all ranges. Mine had the 1:12 twist and would not stabilise 175 gr bullets so well but had no problem with 160gr bullets.
My father had the rifle before me and he too shot hundreds of red deer initially with the original Norma S&H factory ammo which chronographed at 3040fps for the 160gr SPBT in the rifle and then with reloads after Norma ceased production of the S&H ammo and went to the 7x61 Super ammo.

The 'Super' ammo described by another poster above was first loaded with the 160gr Norma SPBT bullet looking identical to the original bullet loaded in the S&H ammo BUT it most surely was not the same bullet. We discovered it had a much harder lead core and failed miserably on our red deer, wipping through like a solid most of the time. My father lost quite a few deer with this Super ammo before sourcing another 200 odd rounds of the old S&H ammo to keep him going until he started reloading. Later Norma Super ammo was loaded with the Norma 150gr bullet and some with the Hornady 154 gr SP. Judging by the pictures on the first packets of Super ammo (Lions in Africa) I suspect this was loaded for Africa use hence a harder cored bullet. I did section a 160gr S&H and a 160gr Super bullet and the lead core of the S&H was actually a much darker 'blue' lead colouring than the silvery core of the Super bullet.

I also had a M65 cock on opening Shultz and Larsen which I used for years until my father got too old for hunting with the heavy rifle and I took over the M60.


Ammunition Date Chrono'ed Velocity

160 gr Sierra SPBT 8.11.88 3010
IMR 4831 powder 3000
59.0 grs load 2999
CCI 200 primer 2986
Norma S&H case 2996

Average 2998

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
I always thought the 7x61 was just about the ideal capacity for the 7mm.

+1

I am in France at the moment, so can't check exact issue number, but Lyman's 45th (or may be 46th or 47th) loading manual has S & H loading details AND as tested in S & L rifle.

Yes the Lyman Reloading Handbook No 46 lists the 7x61 but unfortunately does not list 160gr bullet loads in this version. Lyman used a Schultz and Larsen M65 DL with a 24" barrel in their testing getting over 3100fps with 150gr bullets whereas the M60 and the M65 I owned had 26" barrels.

Lyman describes the 7x61 as such: "Compared to other magnum cases, this cartridge produces very high velocities with minimum amounts of powder with jacketed bullets".

Early Sierra reloading manuals do provide good loads for the 7x61, also describing it as one of the best magnum cartridges they tested for producing high velocity and accuracy while burning minimum powder.

A correction to my earlier post re depiction of African hunting on the Super ammo boxes, I recall now the depiction was not on the ammo boxes but in the Norma catalogues at the time when they launched the Super ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by jctheman1:
There are actually two 7x61 cartridges. When the 7mm Remmag came out, S&L enlarged the inside dimensions of the cartridge to match the 7mm RemMag ballistics. The larger cases were marked (headstamped) "Super".

Not to sure about that.

Howell's Custom Cartridges book states that the 7x61 Super Norma is the same as the 7x61 Sharpe & Hart.

quote:

Not to sure about that.

I've never seen a 7x61 Super but there is reference to the 7x61 S&H and 7x61 super being different due to changing the internal capacity.

http://www.ammo-one.com/7x61SHsuper.html
Here is an example

I have both types of brass and externally they are the same, I only have about 20 of S&H brass so I plan on using them as dummy rounds and doing load work with the super brass.

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:

quote:

Originally posted by jctheman1:
There are actually two 7x61 cartridges. When the 7mm Remmag came out, S&L enlarged the inside dimensions of the cartridge to match the 7mm RemMag ballistics. The larger cases were marked (headstamped) "Super".

Not to sure about that.

Howell's Custom Cartridges book states that the 7x61 Super Norma is the same as the 7x61 Sharpe & Hart.

The Norma catalogues out at the time of the introduction of the Super 7x61 case stated that while there was no change to the externals of the cartridge, the internal dimensions had been changed slightly (most likely in the web thickness which on the original 7x61 case was acknowledged as thicker than most of the belt magnum cases in use then)so that the Super case held another grain and a half of powder. This pushed the MV of the 160gr bullet up from the 7x61S&H MV of 3100fps to 3150fps for the Super ammo.

Not much to get excited about but a marketing strategy to ensure the 7x61 competed equally with the 7mm Rem Mag and 7mm Weatherby Mag.

The 7x61 always held its own with these two great cartridges especially in the exceptionally accurate Schultz and Larsen rifle with it's 26" barrel.

I'm back from France and checked my Lyman 45th Edition. It lists the 7mm x 61 S & H with 120, 139, 150, 165 and 175 grain jacketed bullets.

The 165 grain jacketed loading using IMR4064, IMR4320, IMR 4350, H380, H450 and 4831 (which would have been Hodgdon's) in that bullet.

Accurate load listed as 56.0 grains of IMR4350 (maximum is listed as 62.0 grains IMR4350).

By contrast the 7mm Remington Magnum data shows a maximum of 61.0 grains of IMR4350.

quote:

By contrast the 7mm Remington Magnum data shows a maximum of 61.0 grains of IMR4350.

Part of it is max pressure I show the 7x61 to have a max in the 58,000 range. Rest is the 7mag is about 4-5grs larger. So you need more powder to get to equal pressure.

Hornadys 3rd edition has 7X61 S&H loads as well for, 120, 139, 154, 162 and 175 gn slugs.

According to some information I have seen the Schultz and Larsen rifle was tested to 120,000psi with no adverse effects so this rear locking action with it's massive four locking lugs and tube receiver is a very strong action able to handle high pressure. The original 7x61 Sharpe and Hart brass was also a strong belted magnum case.

My own M60 rifle had normal head-space but the looser fitting Norma factory cartridges showed what most reloaders would consider very high pressure, see photo below of fired factory case. I never had any issues when reloading the once fired brass but did set up the FL die to head-space the case on the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:

quote:

Originally posted by jctheman1:
There are actually two 7x61 cartridges. When the 7mm Remmag came out, S&L enlarged the inside dimensions of the cartridge to match the 7mm RemMag ballistics. The larger cases were marked (headstamped) "Super".

Not to sure about that.

Howell's Custom Cartridges book states that the 7x61 Super Norma is the same as the 7x61 Sharpe & Hart.

Well IF you had both cases in hand and measured the water capacity of both, you would become "sure".

"Norma took the highly unusual step of redesigning the 7x61 internally to give it more powder capacity and hence, velocity.

With his usual overkill, Sharpe had made the cartridge case walls and web unnecessarily stout. Knowing their modern brass could withstand higher pressures, Norma thinned the web and walls, gave the cartridge about five grains worth of extra room, and re-released it as the Super 7x61. Norma backed the bullet weight off to 154 grains, velocity was upped to about 3050, and a very fine cartridge was reborn." (African Hunting Gazette)

Back again Larry?

For posterity here is some checked out info on the 7x61 Super cartridge.

I have two in my odds and sods collection so have photographed them and also pulled the bullets to weight them and the powder charges.

The cartridge pictured on the left is the first 'Super' cartridge loaded by Norma and had the 160gr SBT "Tombac" coated steel jacketed projectile, same weight and style as loaded in the original 7x61 S&H cartridges but when sectioned and compared with the original the lead core seemed much harder and performance on red deer was abysmal with pass throughs and little damage done. This cartridge has green shellac at the bullet/case neck junction and around the primer. It was loaded with 68.0grs N205 (MRP was not developed then).

The cartridge shown on the right is another factory 'Super' round but has a steel jacketed 150gr SBT (Norma) projectile and is also loaded with 68.0grs N205 powder.

The 160gr loaded Super cartridge was advertised as having a MV of 3150fps (50fps faster than the 7x61 S&H advertised at 3100fps).

I recall the 150gr loads were advertised closer to 3200fps competing with the 7mmRM which also advertised it's 150gr ammo at around 3200fps. Norma also loaded a 160gr or 150gr Nosler partition in some of the 7x61 ammo for a while.

Nice photos and interesting that both charges were the same.
Having owned (and foolishly sold) several 7X61s in the 60X series, I can assure you that the Super case would hold more powder and produce 7mm RemMag performance.
Some were 1 in 12, some 1 in 10. The 1 in 12 was an awesome Woodchuck round with 100 gr Sierra HPs when pushed @3600 out of that 26" tube. Messy but no escapes "down into the burrow".
Maybe someday find a burned out 7mm RemMag and hatch a new 7x61. But it still won't be a 65DL.

MODERATORS, LARRY ROOT IS BACK AS "theboxersings"....

quote:

Originally posted by theboxersings:
Nice photos and interesting that both charges were the same.
Having owned (and foolishly sold) several 7X61s in the 60X series, I can assure you that the Super case would hold more powder and produce 7mm RemMag performance.
Some were 1 in 12, some 1 in 10. The 1 in 12 was an awesome Woodchuck round with 100 gr Sierra HPs when pushed @3600 out of that 26" tube. Messy but no escapes "down into the burrow".
Maybe someday find a burned out 7mm RemMag and hatch a new 7x61. But it still won't be a 65DL.

You just can't help yourself, can you, Larry? As long as you're here, let's talk about how you were hiding under your bed and piling furniture in front of your door last year when you thought someone was coming to visit you in Pinedale.