The two loads I used were 4064 and Varget; the velocities w/ Varget were anemic and with 4064 were only 2600+. (My chronograph clocked a 150 Rem Factory load at 2640fps) I have concluded that there isn't a place for the 308 in hunting animals over 200 lbs at over 300yds. Even if the energy is sufficient, the ballistic curve is too high.

The 30-06 with 180's is bearly tolerable, but at least you can hold inside a small 'lope. The 308 isn't flat shooting enough with 165's to hold a good trajectory. Granted, if you know your range you can hit; however, you can seldom hunt this way.

I conclude that the 30-06 is about a minimum 308 caliber for 300 yd shooting. Better would be any one of the magnums. With 180's, they shoot flat enought to hold inside a small animal. The 308 may be great for hostage standoffs, but as a hunting rifle for longer ranges, it sucks! (Yes, I know that my rifle has a short barrel, but that is the way I like it. The .308 still sucks.) Ku-dude

The only problem I see with what you give is that you chose poorly on your bullet weights and barrel leanghts strech the barrels out and put in bullets of good solid constuction.

I aint going to beet up BT`s but they aint ment for animals over 200 pounds IMO

I am fresh out of barrel stretchers. Sure I can go to a partition. That's OK, but the velocity and curve isn't going to improve one bit without changing the weight. I don't know about you, but I would not use a 150gr bullet on a 200+lb animal (other than a man). One uses 150-160gr bullets in sissy calibers like .270's and 7mm's. .308 cal is for real bullets for real men.

I guess that is my point. You hear so much about the 308 and how good it is, but when you start looking at actual performance, it is a 250yd cartridge if you adhere to the old saw about not holding outside your target. It was made to shoot men with, and it is fine for them and white tail inside 200 or 250 yds, then its lazer rangefinder time. For larger game at 300yds or over, one needs a real rifle like a 30-06 or better still, one of the magnums. Ku-dude

Jab, jab, hook! Then go do your nails(:

If you are looking for a reason to buy a barrel burning laudboomer supermag, then feel free. But don't come crying to me when you dislocate your shoulder, flinching, and are deaf, because of the muzzle break. 30.06 doesn't have these problems, and if you are so narrow minded you can't see it, you can't see range either. And your 300 yard shot is probably 300 feet.

In my last 308 carbine (19" bbl) I could get 2,750 with any 165 gr bullet and RL15. I think 165's are THE bullet in the 308. With Varget the velocity was just over 2,700 fps. My rifle shot the 165 gr XLC's into sub-moa clusters at 2,750 fps... at that velocity, with that bullet and its high BC, sighted 3" high at 100 yards I was only 4" low at 300... plenty good.

BA

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Browningguy
Houston, TX

Try 48 grains RL-15 (approach from below) and the 140 Grain Barnes XBT (Federal Gold medal Brass and Fed 210M primer). This one clocks 3056 from my 24" barreled Weatherby Ultra-light.

From your 20" barrel you should approach 2950 FPS.

Mine load is sighted 2.50" high @ 100 yds, and is 3" low @ 300 yds. I think this is flat shooting enough for most purposes.

Not an elk load, but deer and lopes are not safe out to 350 yds. which is further than I like to shoot.

Regards,

Bob

308 is 2.6" high at 100 yards (2288 ft lbs energy) and 9.9" low at 300 yards (1557 ft lbs energy) and 28.9" low at 400 yards (1269 ft pounds)

30-06 is 2.4" high at 100 yards (2436 ft lbs energy) and 9.3" low at 300 yards (1666 ft lbs) and 27.0" low at 400 yards (1362 ft lbs)

To summarize, (with this particular bullet and set of data) there is negligable ballistic difference at 300 yards between the two rounds when using this bullet. There is a 0.6 inch differnce in point of impact at 300 yards and a 1.9" at 400 yards. If your rifle shoots 1 MOA you will get a 3" group at 300 yards. Most likely you won't be able to tell the difference. And, last I checked the lung/heart area on a deer was at least 12" in diameter. There is also almost no differnce in energy. The 30-06 has 6.5% more energy at 100 yards and 7.0% more energy at 300 yards.

Also, given that the 308 has a higher operating pressure than the 30-06, the 308 will come out better than the 30-06 when using 150 or 165 grain bullets. Granted, the 30-06 gives higher velocities for heavier bullets, that is why I have listed the 180 grain bullet data here.

Of coarse Winchester didn't give barrel lenghts for this data, which is very important. According to the Remington web page a rifle with a 2500 to 3000 fps muzzle velocity should have about a 20 fps change for every 1" of barrel length. (Saeed has an interesting article on this site where he cuts down a .223 and notes velocity and accuracy during the process.) And, or coarse there are "fast barrels" and "slow barrels" which are just some of the fun mysteries of shooting. My point, you can't compare a short barreled .308 and a standard barreled 30-06 and say the .308 is not as good at the 30-06. The .308 will perform almost exactly like a 30-06 with the same barrel length. As noted by another post here, Magnums are no good with short barrels. Even the Speer reloading manual says there is negligable difference between the .308 and 30-06 where hunting is concerned, and suggests that you get whichever round comes in the rifle you like best.

OOOOOOOOO, now you done it! Dissing the .270 Win, that's gone too far!
The .270 Win in a fine cartidge fully deserved of it popularity and I find most people who mock it, simply lack experience with it.
Try picking on the .280 Rem... now there is a gun without a purpose

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My 50 yard zero is 3 inches high with a seirra 165 spbt at 2900 fps anyone care to guess how far I can shoot

quote:

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Originally posted by Ku-dude:
(Yes, I know that my rifle has a short barrel, but that is the way I like it. The .308 still sucks.) Ku-dude

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So what cartridge would you prefer in a 20 inch carbine?? And why did you acquire a 20" .308 in the first place if you feel it sucks????

[This message has been edited by MontanaMarine (edited 04-21-2002).]

I am talking about the .308Win. It is a 250 yd, light weight game rifle. It was designed to shoot people with 150gr bullets out to 300yds. With 165gr bullets, which makes it barely adequate for real big game, it is good out to 250 yds. By this I mean, it will hold a 6" circle out to that range.

The .308Win may be accurate, but it is no more so that my 30-06 or 30-338(308 Norma Mag). Now that later cartridge is one that will do it all. A 180 gr bullet at an honest 3000fps; it really works. Dislocate my shoulder! Get a life. My 416/404 won't dislocate my shoulder.

I am not into energy for energy sake. Only that energy necessary to keep a reasonable heavy bullet within a 6" circle out to 300 yds. A 308 won't keep a 165gr bullet in a 6" circle beyond 250yds. A 30-06 will extend the range 25 yds using 180 gr bullets. A 30-338 will take it all the way out to 300 yds.

My rifle will shoot a Rem. factory 150gr at 2640 fps. It will shoot a 165gr handload at 2650fps. Neither is in the running with a 30-06 or 30 mag which will push a 180gr bullet to 2750 - 3000 fps. What this translates into is flat. The 180gr bullet drops less than 3" at 300yds with the 30-338.

With regard to the weight of animals, I have misstated the weights; however, I think my ballistic program is very generous in its weights. According to my reloading program, the 30-06 is adequate for animals from 1000to 500 lbs at ranges from 0 to 300yds. The 30-338 and 9.3x62 will handle animals weighing from 1500 to 1750 to 750 lbs at ranges from 0 to 300 yds. The 308 will handle animals from 750 lbs to 400 lbs at ranges from 0 to 300 yds.

The 308 is an also ran anyway you look at it: throw weight; bullet drop; or animal weight. Sorry. My original comment is accurate: The 308Win is a wonderful 250yds cartridge for white tails. If you want a real rifle, look for a 30-06 or better yet a 30 magnum. Ku-dude

"Barely adequate for real big game" BS! There is several generations worth of field experience with both the 06' and 308 to contradict your "findings." In the early days of the last century the then-new 30-06 wasn't as "good" as today's .308 Win, yet that old grandad took mountains of game both here and in Africa. I thought you were "all-over" the 300 WSM as the new, messianic-30 cal?!? Why not just go with it? I have a nicely accurate 300 WSM in a stainless Win 70... it's a solid round that does, in a compromise, the duty of the 30-06 and 300 Mag's. At some point you just need a bigger bullet... for big, big game I'll pass right over the 30's and use a 338 Win Mag.

I have never found it useful or in good taste to be against something in order to be for something else...

Brad Amundson

Brad, I really don't have anything negative to say about the 30-06. It is extremely useful and with new powders approaches what the 300HH did 50 years ago.

I never have been a booster of the 30WSM. I personally like the 300HH and 30-338. I don't see any utility in the 30WSM. It doesn't do anything that the other 308 magnums won't do.

My point is and was that the 308 is a good cartrdige for what it was designed to do. It wasn't designed to shoot big animals at ranges over 250 yds.

But, you guys have convinced me. I am going to take my 308 on my trip. Why? Because it has the same ballistic curve with 165's that my 9.3 has with 250BT. Just part of the KISS principle.

I hope I did not generate any long lasting ill will. Good shooting. Ku-dude

Really, because of its military status, the 308 Win sees as much or more African big game use as anything... it has apparently been used to take as much/more game on the continent as any other cartridge.

If you look through, I believe, Wilson's book on "Ruger And His Guns", you'll see an M77 308 Win from the late 60's owned by a PH from Australia which was used to take in excess of 12,000 head of game! It was given by the owner to the Ruger collection. Neat round the 308!

The late PH, Finn Aagaard, believed the 308 was capable on nondangerous game of under 1,000 lbs. "within any reasonable range." I dislike quoting gun-writers, prefering to draw my own conclusions. Aagaard, however, is the exception as he's such a truthful observer and reporter of his finding that are based in vast, first-hand experience. He also stated; "I have seen a higher proportion of clean, one-shot kils made with the .308 Winchester than with the .300 Magnums." He mainly blamed the shooter's fear of the mag's for this, of course!

Hope you have a great trip... please fill us in on the details when you return!

Best Regards and "no-problems,"

Brad A.

Same yourself a lot of worry and take a .338 win mag with you......your worries and cares will soon be over. A 225 grain premium bullet is good for 400 yards fact!

PS don't get your feet crossed either~!

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Jamison:
Ku-Dude-- I'll even let you hold a milk jug of water out at at 600 while I shoot it.

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YOU hold it and let him shoot.

quote:

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Originally posted by FarRight:
[QBOOOOOOOOO, now you done it! Dissing the .270 Win, that's gone too far!
The .270 Win in a fine cartidge fully deserved of it popularity and I find most people who mock it, simply lack experience with it.
[/QB]

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