idahoelk101,

Why do you think that neck came off? If your going to use the rifle for hunting I would find and solve the cause.

What brand ammo was it or was it reloaded etc?

Let me start this post by acknowledging that I am a gun slut. Have taken most all the money in my life that I might have spent on alcohol and tobacco and spent it on something far more addicting: rifles and shotguns and pistols, oh my.

My PF's outnumber my CRF's mainly because I love Sako's; the stock design fits me perfectly, I hit with them (confidence), and I like their looks (to each his own). Over the last several years I have slowly become more fascinated by CRF's. That has been paralleled by a growing appreciation of the practical genius of Paul Mauser. His approach was similar to his contemporaries John Browning and Thomas Edison in that he took a block of steel and a file and over a period of about thirty years worked out what geometry was necessary to get these rifles to feed and function flawlessly.

The fact that the majority of rifles made these days are push feeds has to do mainly with production costs. To get a CRF to function with 100% reliability requires that the entire feeding system (magazine box dimensions, exact shape of the follower, spring dimensions and strength, rail shape, feed ramp shape, extractor "bite" and tension, etc.) must be optimized for a specific cartridge, and in some cases a specific brand of brass. That was easier to do when hand labor was cheap, and there were only a few chamberings to choose from. If you have a production run of 300,000 rifles in, say, 6,5 x55, you can afford to produce components optimized for that cartridge. If you are producing a diverse and ever changing variety of chamberings in an attempt to sell more rifles to a saturated market that process becomes more cost prohibited.

The biggest issue I see is the loss of corporate memory as to how to make CRF rifles work with 100% reliability. How many young Ted Blackburns, Mark Penrods, D'Arcy Echols', Bill Leepers, and Dennis Olsons are there out there? These guys have had to relearn and reinvent some of the old techniques through trial and error (just like Mauser did in the beginning).

No wonder it often costs a lot to have a dead nuts reliable CRF rifle done up in a DG caliber.

JCN

idahoelk101

yeah - real world accuracy as against theoretical!

I was speaking to a man who is a partner in an African huntinc concession (I hope this is an accurate description - for the life of me I can not remember his name or where he hunts) - he as a result hunts Africa every year - does no guiding has his own I guess - not real sure how it works out. Anyway I asked the dreaded question of PF vs CRF and he said he uses both, the only time he really had a problem with PF was sheep hunting AK or the Yukon, I don't think he ever really said - at an extreem up hill angle - had the gun to his shoulder to reload and the cartraige fell out - had to bring her down and make it level to reload.

As this gentelman was one in EVERY sense of the word, and a friend of my fathers I believe him - I brough up the Africa thing to show he does some serious hunting - was showing the broken bones he got from an elephant that "tossed" him.

Said he hunted what ever tags they had left over from the govt on their concession and a lot of cull work - he likes to shoot! Great guy and neat stories. I do not understand just how the concession/hunting tags and client thing works out but I do know there is no way I will ever get to Africa (short of the lottery).

Saeed used push feeds but his weapon of choice are Dakotas with you guessed it, CRFs. Bottom line is folks that can't or won't see the inherent differences between the two have already made up their minds and don't want the facts ( as in the overwhelming majority of Professional Hunters) to get in the way. kinda like....democrats. jorge

Hey ad and chuck, I'm so surprised that you CRF M70 fans can't answer such a simple question.

Certainly didn't mean to embarrass you all by exposing your lack of knowledge about how the CRF is actually supposed to function.

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Quote:

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If I were you, ...

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You would be seeing the "humor" in the above.

Why in the world would anyone choose an autoloader over a bolt action for a hunting rifle?

Hot Core, do you need someone to explain 4WD to you as well? The term Controlled Round Feed is just as self explanitory.

Chuck

Allen,



To answer your question/statement:

Quote:

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I can't figure out why anyone would NOT choose a CRF action over a push-feed

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1.) Because the PF works better/easier in an autoloader.



2.) Because the PF is typically cheaper than the CRF.



Idahoelk101,



Hate to break this to ya', but the PF would have extracted that broken case neck too! Sorry if the truth hurts guys.



ASS_CLOWN

Chuck,

I would really appreciate it if you, or someone else in the know, could answer Hot Core's question:

Quote:

---

How far is it allowable for the bolt to move forward "without the cartridge being under control of the Extractor" before it is considered "improperly timed"(aka it has become a Controlled Round/Push Feed) and needs to go to the GunSmith? 1/4"? 1/2"? 1"? 2"?

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Regarding the use of an auto-loader for hunting. It is a matter of:
1.) Personal choice
2.) Where you are hunting
3.) What you are hunting

Teal,
A properly set-up PF will feed upside down, side ways, at any angle between 0 and 360 degrees. Your friends rifle must have been defective i.e. it needed rail work, new mag spring, different/modified mag follower, a combination of the aforementioned.

ASS_CLOWN

The main issue I see with the very pro CRF advocates is that blanket statements are made about their reliability in feeding and extracting BUT not all of them have been through the D'Arcy Echols treatment.

Other issues also come into play. For example a 416 Wby or 460 Wby with very blunt bullets will is a more reliable feeder than the CRFS but that is due to the centre feed in line magazine Vs staggered feed.

A lot of the M70s that have come to Australia in the belted magnum calibres have problems because of the extractor dimensions. It is disappointing for a new shooter to buy a rifle and buy it because of what he reads about CRF. Yes, I know the M70 can be fixed but the average shooter does not think about that when buying his new toy.

Of course this same principle applies to accuracy and Rem 700s. Lots of blanket statements made about Rem 700s and accuracy but they do not apply to the average gun out of the box for the average shooter.

I think for reliablity discussions the word "potential" should be used with CRF and ditto for accuracy with Rem 700 actions.

Mike

Remember the brown bear guide in AK who got his hand and legs broken by a wounded bear when his Sako jammed?



http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=285170&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Hotcore, the only person around here who doesn't understand how CRF actions operate is YOU. We've been answering your ingenuous inquiries about same for quite some time, but you keep on making the same old dumb assumptions; keep on making the same ignorant, transparent inuendos; and keep on asking the same brand of in-the-dark questions anyway.

So it's pretty obvious that you don't get it.........

If I were you, I'd stick with PF Remington 700s, etc., and desist from confusing yourself with the nuances of CRF actions. Besides, those push-feed jobs are perfect actions upon which to build rifles for assassinating those ultra-dangerous whitetails from tower stands overlooking soybean fields in your part of the country.

AD

I just don't know. I have had over a dozen Pre-64s and shot them all and ALL were sub-MOA shooters with zero feeding problems. Only ONE (1) gave me accuracy problems and it was due to a customized stock (not original) that was not properly bedded. Once bedded, it shoots sub-MOA again. I know that there are mnay who use beat-up Pre-64s as "donor" actions for customs, but that is not the same as a factory pre-64s and many, due to incompetent smiths have experienced feeding and accuracy problems. That is not the same as a stock pre-64. So to say that pre-64s need extensive attention by gunsmiths in order to shoot/feed is a stretch at best and downright lying at it's worse form. jorge

Hey AC, Chances of chuck being able to answer the question are either Zero or Nada! And I might as well toss ad in that pile as well.

They have gone to the time proven method of "bragging" on something which is typically acknowledged as having some strong positive features(of course they totally ignore the negative ones), claim the (rag) Pre-64 M70 rusting blue and termite food models are the "Holy Grail" of ALL Rifles and then send them off(with a huge pile of money) to an honest to goodness GunSmith who eliminates, corrects and lessens "most" of the problems.

Them when pressed to explain something as simple as, "How does CRF work?", they become exposed as the non-knowledgeable rookies they are. All they had to do was remain quiet on the thread and the other folks would not have known, but now it is out in the open for all to see.

There are very few things which give greater pleasure than exposing phoneys.

Then we see john charlie attempting to circle around the subject with an answer that says nothing when he "claims" he has the question on Ignore. Huuuummm, do we smell a skunk in the church here as well?

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There is good news for those of you who really don't know how well a properly timed CRF is supposed to work, but you really do want to know. There are a couple of guys on AR who have answered the same question and a few follow-ups with absolutely "clear and concise" answers. They knew what they were talking about and I can recommend you track down that thread on the African Board that I started and read it. Could not expose them as un-knowing braggarts simply because they aren't.

For what it is worth, I've noticed the "current production" M70s have fewer problems to correct than the old rag ones and the vast majority of the newer ones I've handled have no problems to correct at all - fine rifles. But, I also agree with Mike that occasionally all the firearm manufacturers seem to let one get out of the factory that just doesn't seem like it could have been possible for it to have passed all the Inspections.

I consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to pre-64s, certainly not as much as guys like Allen, who as many of you know was a contributor to Roger Rule's book. One of my "mentors" in my "gun affliction" was Alan "Smitty" Smithline also a contributor to Rules book. He used to own a gun shop in Miami called the Gun Exchange and he bought, sold & collected Model 70s and I played with hundreds of them.

I can tell you that the pre-war and up to the mid-50s they were much better finished than the post 1960s stuff. But they ALL shot extremely well. So I stand by my original post in that ANYONE that says otherwise regarding the accuracy of pre-64s eitehr has an agenda, is ignorant, or is at variance with the truth. jorge

Yup,
Between Homedale and Fruitland on 95. Just look for the farm house with all the shell casings in the yard, and no cats in the neighborhood.
JCN

Im about 8 hrs north on the same hwy, a stones throw from the old "Nation" compound

Hot Core, if you think -- for one second -- that neither Chuck nor I are capable of fully explaining the mechanical nuances of a controlled-feed action, you're kidding yourself.

AD

"Bottom line is folks that can't or won't see the inherent differences between the two..."

So what are they?

For what it's worth, I went to the range last weekend, did a 'rapid fire' sequence (military rifle comp - which I'm VERY familiar with), didn't cycle the bolt fully, and rechambered the fired case - wouldn't have mattered if it was PF or CRF. I'm glad I wasn't facing anything more dangerous than a target - only my pride was hurt!

I've been shooting for about 40 years, in all kinds of conditions, (including battle), and I have not been able to figure out the reason for the debate!!

BTW, the rifle I was using was my beloved Ruger 77MkII - I just didn't pull the bolt back far enough!! the fault was mine - not the rifle.

Is the SMLE CRF or PF? Just curious. One of the fastest and most reliable 'battle' rifles ever produced. But if memory serves, it ain't CRF.

This CRF/PF debate is bullshit!! Unless, maybe, you've got an angry elephant giving you the evil eye, in which case, give me a double!!

Allen,

I don't doubt you, but please explain/answer Hot Core's question as some of us want to know the answer.

Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN

jorge,

I have owned, I think (relying on memory now that can be dangerous ), three Classics and three Post'64s over the years. None of them was worse than a 1.5" @ 100 shooter and none of them suffered from: feeding gremlins, misaligned from or rear sights, bolt handles falling off, etc, etc, etc. They all worked just as a rifle is supposed to. The only pre-64 I have ever been around any length of time as a 375 H&H and it cracked it's stock, which had been repaired and rebedded (properly bedded in my opinion) by the time I was introduced to this rifle(the original owner was the one doing the introducing and he did the repair and the rebedding too). The metal to wood fit was not on par with what I typically see on factory M70 Classics today FWIW.

To me it really is about 6 of one or a half-dozen of the other. One should shoot what one is proficient with, as long as the weapon in questions is in proper working order.

ASS_CLOWN

$5.00 says Sako 75's in .416 Rem Mag and .375 H&H at least will be available in a CRF format in the next three years, and not just in the fancy Safari models.
JCN

Here is a Link to the thread where CRF is explained extremely well for those of you who may have had trouble locating it:



http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=756047&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1



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Hey ad, I asked a simple question and got nothing but rude, bad-mouthing from you. All you had to do was answer the question, or not reply at all. Instead you chose to go into your "High and Mighty" mode, thinking you could "talk down" to me which is quite comical to an old MARINE.



No doubt at all you and Chuck could both describe when CRF is working properly now that I told you where to locate the information on the African Board. KurtC and MacD gave some excellent responses to the questions and I could not trip them up at all.



I do believe you know a bit about firearms, perhaps you can get a cartridge chambered without shooting yourself. But from what I've read in your posts, I just don't see nearly the amount of knowledge you seem to think you have. I don't mean that as a put down, because you could possibly learn if you tried.



But, I've yet to locate a rude, big-mouthed Braggart that couldn't be shown to be what a phoney he is when the correct questions are asked. (And yes indeed, I did mean that as a put-down! )



Obviously you have a few people fooled like jorge, but I don't see that as any major accomplishment at all. (Best of luck to you Swab Jockey!)



Above jorge is implying I'm "lieing" about the rag Pre-64 rusting blue and termite food M70s "I had" and that he never saw. The question would be, for what purpose would that serve. I sure hope no one ends up with rifles like those rags I had irregardless of the manufacturer.



I for one like M70s. Just not the ones you have to spend thousands of dollars on to get so they will hit what you are aiming at. No need to when you get a good one.



---



I know some will be disappointed by this useless bickering, I know I am. But perhaps some good will come of it if the folks that didn't quite totally understand CRF took the time to go over to the African Board and learn a bit about how it should work. If that happened, good for them.



One thing is quite apparent though, the only thing you accomplished was looking like a poorly educated, phoney, Braggart fool. From where I sit, that is both pitiful and quite humerous.

Hot Core,



I must admit that I am disappointed in both Chuck Nelson and Allen Day. They both profess to know so much about the CRF and neither have EVER explained to me how the magazine box must be dimensioned i.e. the mathematics that define the proper dimensions, how the feed rails need to be cut for proper transition, etc, etc, etc. Just once I would like for one of these two to post the facts to support their comments. I just wanted to know if they REALLY knew the facts or where simply spewing out the "party line".



By the way, I hunt with CRF rifles. I know how to set-up the magazine box correctly and how to shape the rails. It is FAR FAR from rocket science! Surprisingly, there is a healthy tolerance on just how wide the mag box needs to be, the followers aren't all that critical either until you start stuffing cartridges which are FAR too big for the gun anyway. But then again what do I know, I am just an ASS_CLOWN.



I have to agree with rugeruser though, all this "arguing" is rather pointless, as both designs, if properly executed, will provide the appropriate performance.



By the way, the guide got "ate" due to operator error, it can and does happen with CRF rifles too. Unfortunate, but true.



ASS_CLOWN

What's "lieing"? and I don't know what "irregardless" means either. Sorry but english is my second language I don't recognize these two words. Are they etymologically related to "lying" and "regardless"? Becasue if they are, the former applies if somebody continues to say that pre-64s are not accurate. Hot Core must hae been an 03-11 in the "Crotch." Semper Fi, jorge

Is the PF really cheaper to produce than CRF?

I have always felt that one of the motivations behind PF was all the stuff years ago about pressure and gas proofing etc.

It is also interesting that of the main factory rifles seen on this forum:

M70, Rem700, Sako, Ruger, Weatherby, Sauer, Blaser, Savage

The most expensive are the PFs

Mike

Hey AC, I just checked the "View Count" on the link and it got 10 additional views after I posted where it is located. Excellent! Hopefully people will be able to learn a bit from KurtC and MacD.

I'm probably a bit too hard on ad by laughing at him all the time. I can imagine old St.Pete someday telling me that wasn't nice. But, ad makes it so simple, like the below.

Quote:

---

What's "lieing"? and I don't know what "irregardless" means either. Sorry but english is my second language I don't recognize these two words. Are they etymologically related to "lying" and "regardless"? Becasue if they are, the former applies if somebody continues to say that pre-64s are not accurate. Hot Core must hae been an 03-11 in the "Crotch." Semper Fi, jorge

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Hey jorge, What's "hae"? And what's "Becasue"? I don't know what "03-11" means either. Sorry but good old Southern USA is my language and I don't recognize those words. Are they etymologically related to "have", "Because" and "0311"?

Isn't it comical when a guy goes out of his way to make fun of your "spellllin'" and ends up making himself look like the fool? I really do appreciate you helping me with the correct spelling. Am I spelling CRF correctly?

Hang in there jorge, I still like you and wouldn't want you to change a bit. Thanks for the Semper Fi. If I knew of an appropriate complement for a Swab Jockey, I'd return the favor.

How `bout, May you never get a Sign Off code of A-799 "Short between the headsets!" from the Avionics Shop.

Wasn't you "Ass Clown," not yet anyway. It was the resident "Village Idiot." "irregardlless" is grammatically incorrect. jorge

I guess you're some sort of "old marine" who'd rather take the low-road and hand out insults while hiding behind some phony stage name. Very impressive.

The truth is -- and this is why I've responded in the manner in which I have on this thread -- we've bantered this controlled-feed versus push-feed issue about for a long time, with you on the opposing side every time. You're not interested in learning about controlled-feed, you're just trying to come up with cheap personal points against those of us who've exposed your stubborn ignorance for what it is. You'll salvage a couple of incomplete answers on the African Hunting forum, kiss the backsides of those who provided it (and who don't know your particular set of tricks), then turn around and try to use that incomplete set of answers against those of us who've seen your true colors for what they are. And cowboy, those kind of tactics just don't work with me.

What's funny is, I've provided a whole lot more information on the concept and virutes of controlled-feed over the years on these forums than you received in a few short sentences over on the African Forum, but you've conveniently forgotten about that reality on this thread, which shows just how insincere and phony you really are. Or maybe your reading and comprehension skills just-plain suck, I don't know.......

You made the comment that "perhaps I could get a cartridge into the chamber without shooting yourself". Based upon the quantity, quality, substance, and value of the information you've provided on this forums over the course of time, I doubt like heck that you could even accomplish that much.

AD

Hot Core,

sometime in the last month I took the time to give a word picture of the relationship of components involved in typical bolt action magazine.

I suppose one could conjure up calculus and physics but it just isn't rocket science. Nor is it witchcraft.

BTW, combat Marines and serious outdoorsmen prefer CRF.

jorge,

Understood, I said what I said because you had "replied" to my post. Glad that we aren't fighting, let us keep it that way! This topic isn't worth it, believe me!

ASS_CLOWN

Jorge,

Where did I say anyone was "lieing"? I think you have me confused with another. Also, where did I say "irregardless"? Again I think you are confusing me with another.

By the way, irregardless is American and is informal speech. I believe you will find it listed in Webster's Dictionary. I speak American NOT English. My family stopped speaking English about 225 year ago.

Finally, why are you upset with me. To my knowledge I have not said anything on this thread to offend you. No I did not attack the vaunted pre-64 M70 (although personally I don't think they are so vaunted but I am entitled to my own professional opinions or at least I thought I was).

Allen,
To my knowledge, you have NEVER explained in technical terms, i.e. the equations which define magazine box and follower geometry, how a properly set-up magazine box on a CRF rifle should be. You simply stated that these equations/mathematic relationship exists. I say DUH, and guess what, it exists for a PUSH FEED magazine/follower too.

Come on man, either ignore this ignorant crap (read threads, yes plural) or tell us what you REALLY know.

I DO NOT want anyone to say I am attacking anybody. Why? Because it isn't true. I just want some people to explain their positions in a technically correct manner.

Have a nice day.

ASS_CLOWN

In this former 0311's NSHO the only reason for PF is ease of production. It's cheaper.

Those PFs like Sako, WBY, Howa, Winchester etc with a real extractor are not bad. Wincester has now found a way to have best of both worlds.

The plunger ejector on most PFs is another cheap and undesireable feature.

If you don't know what an 03-11 is then you were in the marines like I was in the democratic party. That my "lieing" Village Idiot is the MOS ( do you know what that means?) for Marine Infantry. I tried to be a bit tongue-in-cheek with you with the spelling. Obviously we all make those pesky mistakes, as I so clearly illustrated, but not knowing what an 03-11 to a real Marine is, well it's like one of us here not knowing what a Model 70 is. That's two lies, now "VI", that you owned pre-64s and that you were in the Marines. jorge