DR. Alf,
In factory persuasion the 7-08 is superior, but take into consideration that in the USA all factory 7x57 ammo is terribly underloaded to allow for those frivolus law suits when folks shoot factory ammo in the 95 and 96 Mausers, not to mention the old falling blocks, Martinis etc and lose an eye or get a bloody nose..

Therefore I have found it necessary to handload, have a long throat, and 06 length magazine, and use H414 powder to get the most out of my favorite caliber or I can simply shoot the Brno mod. 21 or 22 which comes that way from the factory and will shoot my loads as is. I am surprised you have not become aware of that, and recall you saying the Brno's were not to be shot with such loads, which is incorrect on your part btw. at any rate give it a try and I'll send you the loads old man wisdom has been shooting or years without incident..I suppose that comes with old age and wisdom, but it was invented by Brno as far as I know, or at least that's where this old man with wisdom beyond his years got the idea!

I have a Kimber Montana 7mm08 & a Sako L61R in 280 Ack Imp.

So I do not see the need for a 7X57.

That is just me. How ever, I would love to own a classic M98 7X57 in the old traditional style - like a 275 Rigby - just for the joy of owning such a rifle with nice workmanship.

quote:

Originally posted by steyrsteve:

Please feel free to fill in any 7-08 loads I may have missed.

on MIDWAY i count:


27 factory loads for the 7mm/08.


12 factory loads for 7x57.


and one load for '275 Rigby' stamp brass by Hornady.
I don't know what they were thinking since no such marked orig. Rigby rifle(or period ammunition) has ever existed.

There is about an 8% difference between the 7-08 and 7x57...actual H2O CC and usable CC...if you keep the bullet weights, pressures and seating depths equal you end up with ~130 fs and ~240 ft lb difference with a 140 gr bullet.

I have two 7-08's and a 7RM now but have had a 7 BR, several 284 Wins, both standard length and long throated in rifle and pistol and 7mm Express/280 Rem, 7x57 and 7x57 AI.

8% isn't an insubstantial increase considering the higher velos mean higher energy figures as the energy goes UP at the square of the velo...which means, all things being equal, you can shoot a heavier bullet at equal velos.

In actuality I couldn't tell much differences between the 7-08R/7x57/280R/284W as far as killing goes except by bullet weight use...the 7 RM is another story, it's about 33% larger than the 7x57.

All the rest is pot stirring, individual likes/dislikes and bullet choice per animal, I think...THEY ALL do their jobs when the shooter does his.

I was all hot to do a 7mm STW when it first came out, then the 7mm RUM but decided if I needed something my 7 RM might be a bit small for it would be much better to step up several rungs to a much larger caliber round.

Again...it's not always how big your shooter is, it's how well you shoot the one you brung.

8% greater case capacity = 2% greater velocity, not my WAG but a bit of physics. Doubt it? Check out case capacities of .308 Win and .300 Win Mag. Then look at FL velocity differences.
This translates to about 58 more fps with the 7x57. Not much of a difference.
Midway offers 5 different bullet weights, counting 139 and 140 the same, in 7-08. They offer 4 different weights in 7x57, meaning they don't offer the very fine 150 grain Norma load.
Just to add a bit of clarity from a 7x57ophile.

Yeah...John Barsness's infamous formula which works fairly well....you get about 1/4 the difference in CC in actual velocity...1/4 of 8% = 2% which equals ~58 fs...but that's NOT cast in stone...only a back of the envelope calculation.

I took the ~130/240 numbers from QL and Powley calculators, some manuals and some very old 7x57 data I have...The QL numbers actually ran to ~4% difference...and you can get whatever numbers you want by massaging all the parameters however you desire, ergo, I tried to keep apples to apples with the pressure, bullet weight, seating depth, barrel length, etc.

Besides you can't go by what the manuals have printed in them OR what QL or other software programs come up with...the only sure way is to have a direct head to head velocity/pressure check keeping the parameters consistent and even then the difference in barrels can upset the apple cart. How many have pressure testing abilities to get actual valid data which is questionable also.

You can only go by what YOUR rifle produces in the way of velo and guestimate the pressure, or visa versa, with the cartridges/reloads YOU develop/shoot.

It still points up the fact of comparing apples to guavas when comparing the 7-08 to the 7x57 which is why I think most comparisons are a waste of time and only for "proving" something unprovable in actually.


I think the dead animals never read the manuals, the velo charts or spent so much time online...If they did they WOULDN'T HAVE ended up as steaks, roasts, jerky, hamburger and sausage on the table no matter which 7mm cartridge I used. Hey, Harry...watch out, he's got the 7x57...stay at least 500 yds away. Naw, it's only the 7-08...400 yds is OK.

WTF is a "WAG"......"watch a girl"..."Want a Gumby"..."Wear a Garter"..."want a goat?"...WHAT????

8 percent, more capacity,
I assume you are talking empty cases.
I think in the real world you could strech that advantage.
Most 7mm08s are built on .308 length actions.
No matter how long you cut the throat , the magazine restricts oal.
With the 7x57 you can seat out farther and increase capacity. By quite a lot i think.
However, if increased capacity or more direcly increased velocity , equaled a better round , we would all shoot magnums.
This is a fun thread, but both rounds are excellent deer rounds , and decent for bigger critters too !
My load for my #1A is with H-414 and gives me 2900.
Extremely accurate. I could go faster, but why ? , I have a 7 mag too.
I think with a 708 , I could come real close to 2900 , so for my purpose ,i would be well served buy either...tj3006

The 7x57 has a pedigree, thats the difference.

it really is a case of"Six of one or half a dozen of the other."

Take your choice for whatever reasons you may choose.

I opted for the 7x57 because of the history associated with the cartridge. It just has a cachet the 7-08 will never have. It also helps that I load my own and I'm also not worried about availability of cases since they can be easily made from 8x57 or even .30-06. That said I would be perfectly happy with the 7-08.

[QUOTE)

WTF is a "WAG"......"watch a girl"..."Want a Gumby"..."Wear a Garter"..."want a goat?"...WHAT????[/QUOTE]

Wild Assed Guess

And a SWAG is a Scientific wild ass guess.

I see...just never heard/read it as "WAG"...lots of spoken "wild ass guesses"...this new-to-me "net speak" just doesn't compute always. and SWAG was the goodies you ripped off doing MB...monkey business.

Here we go again...I DID say I tried to keep apples to apples.

Yes...you can futz around a stretch things a bit but what you can do to one case you can do the other...the relationship stays the same...~8% difference...trying to squeeze blood from a turnip is still trying to squeeze blood from a turnip...Jezzzz

I took the numbers case CC numbers from QL's data base...I checked some of my 308 cases...I have 308 based calibers from 22 to 35 cal and have made dummies up to 425 cal, basically a straight walled cartridge, so I do know a bit about case capacities with the 308, x57, '06 and probably ALL the magnum cases at least up to the Rigby, fairly intimately...and a few of the other relatively new cases in the Gibbs size range.

I also DID SAY I CHECKED SOME OF MY OLD 7X57 DATA AND THAT ~8% still held true without getting totally anal with the decimal point.

AND I DID SAY I used 0.285" as the seating depth to keep things equal and that the ~8% held...all you had to do was the math...USABLE CC means the volume of the case with the bullet seated to a specific depth IN BOTH CASES.

The magazine only restricts the seating depth if you let it...I do a lot of first shot loads with bullets seated to maximize ballistics and keep the magazine full of "second shot if needed" rounds. Basically the same thing as using pointy bullets in the tube of leverguns...been doing that for 50 years, you just have to know HOW.

I don't let a little thing like magazine length give me the redazzzz or in any way impinge on what I want insofar as maximum ballistic capability is concerned. Gaining a bit of velo by seating out is as old a trick as I am...nothing new.

Everyone keeps arguing tree apples and road apples to try to "Prove" something.

I'm not trying to sell ANYONE, ANYTHING...and I really don't care if you like the 7-08, 7x57, 284 or any other 7mm or not...I've done testing on ALL OF THEM...I know what I can and can't do to ANY CARTRIDGE/CASE and it's relatively simple to figure out.

I long throated the 284 AND the 280 and almost matched 7 RM factory velos with BOTH with 140-150 gr bullets...THEN did the same to the 7 RM with 160-175 gr bullets and almost matched Weatherby/RUM ballistics and did match 7 STW...but I could do the same with all those other cartridges and gain a bit more velo...


ANYONE can do the same...I'm not the first and certainly won't be the last to travel this road and with the newest powders who knows just how far anyone can go...you just have to know the limitations and not go nutz.

These cartridges are just useful tools to me and they are NOT the only ones I've mucked about with. My 7x57 280 and 284's went down the road many years ago, replaced by other calibers...I kept my 7-08 XP and rifle barrels for some long unknown and forgotten reasons.

I would like to do a few WSM calibers or some on a 2.25" shortened RUM case and bought a Savage 375 Ruger just for the action and center feed clip/switch barrel capability basically, but I'm doing a 9.5x57 (aka 375 JDJ, 375/444 )now and it might be my last rodeo...most of the glitter and shine has gone out of doing "another shooter".

This shooting business is my hobby for well over 65 years, I'm 73 now and I've experimented with just about everything in it.

DON'T BELIEVE ME...I would rather you do the testing yourself and learn all the nuances that happen.

The best and WORST thing about this net is the 'puter generation thinks they can learn everything about everything on it and don't have to do the empirical thingy...like getting off your duff and actually doing something different...what a waste of good minds.

Luck

Interesting Nonagonagin. Thanks for your information and findings.

Now as for WAG and SWAG they are acronyms I've used for a long long time. They are about as old as SNAFU and FUBAR and RCH. I think they all originated in the Military as the services are enamored of acronyms of all kinds. I do believe it would be possible to have an entire paragraph composed of nothing but military acronyms with enough articles and adjatives to tie things together.

Okay, we solved that one! So now let's start the 7x57 vs .270 Winchester debate.
Two very sacred cows going head to head. Kind of like UFC for cartridges.

NONAGONA - I have no issue with you personally & do not mean to get into an argument or be rude.

Having said that, I would like to respectfully point out an error in your post. The 280 Rem or the 280 Ack Imp are far closer to the 7RM than the 7X57 or 7mm08.

According to Nosler manual (and actual loads tried) my 160 gr Accubond load in my 280 Ack Imp using VV N560 gives me virtually 7RM performance. On the range - in real life - my 280 Ack Imp gives equal velocities as my friend's 7RM. I get 10 reloads out of a lot of cases BTW & possibly could do more but I just retire them. Barry gets 5 or 6 in his Mag cases.

Yes I know - rifles vary etc. But the point is that the 280 Rem & Ack Imp are closer to the 7RM than the 7X57 or 7mm08.

How difficult can it be ?

The 280 AI does not change the laws of physics gentlemen !

It is a simple case of energy. More powder = more total potential energy and that equates to more muzzle energy ! So if bullet mass is the same and barrel length is the same then the cartridge with the most potential energy wins !


As someone ones said the 280 AI gives about 100 fps on a standard 280 ( and about 100 fps less than a 7mm Remmie) This is reality !

quote:

Originally posted by lal:
The 7x57 has a pedigree, thats the difference.

Some of the bespoke British-Euro rifle firms that have chambered 7mm Mauser have pedigree,
but the cartridge itself is just a military round adopted by hunters.

Don't get me wrong , cause ido LIKe the 7x57 as a classic round.
But-I just about always tend to lean toward the .280rem if using a std length action.
why?...well some folks get to seating the 7x57 bullet out for more capacity in pursuit of speeD
where I prefer to do it by using a longer .280rem case.

just like with the 6mm rem versus the 243 win.
the x57 case wins.
loaded to the same pressures the bigger case always produces greater gas volume and higher velocity's.
loaded to the same velocity's the bigger case does it with less pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have a Kimber Montana 7mm08 & a Sako L61R in 280 Ack Imp.

So I do not see the need for a 7X57.

That is just me. How ever, I would love to own a classic M98 7X57 in the old traditional style - like a 275 Rigby - just for the joy of owning such a rifle with nice workmanship.

No! You can't have one!! roger

The 7x57 was a military cartridge, part of it's design was reliability. It used lower pressures to help ensure reliability. Having a rifle jam because of high pressure was a liability.
The 7x08 was designed as a sporting cartridge. Having a rifle jam in a sporting situation seldom gets you killed by the enemy. So higher pressures are allowable.
Leo

The 7x57 has long since not been a milsurp cartridges, mostly its a old hunting caliber well proven over the last hundred or so years..It is underloaded and loading books give weak loads because of the many milsrup mod. 95s and 96 and a few old junk single shots..

In a modern rifle it leaves the 7-08 in the lurch and if properly set up by a good smith or the use of a Brno mod. 21 or 22, it can compete with factory loaded 7 magnums..Not a guess I have both calibers and a chronograph. These properly set up 7x57s are on 06 length actions and have long throats that will seat a 175 gr. Nosler to one caliber or .284 depth and powder capacity at that point is the same as the 7x57 Ackley, but you can still shoot and reload as a 7x57 in 7x57 dies..I have found H414 is the only powder for this combo as to accuracy or especially velocity and its roughly 8to 10 grs more powder, depending on bullet weight, on average than most reloading books for a std. 7x57..

Here's my 7x57, a rebarreled Sako 75 (started out as a 30-06). Gave it a nice long barrel of 25.5 inch, shoots old 150 grains Norma steel jacketed ammo at 2870 fps.

It's always a hoot when someone, trying to justify their particular choice, goes to length about a special barrel, special twist, special chamber, red-line loading,etc,etc,etc and then brags that it will outdo an over the counter stock rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
It's always a hoot when someone, trying to justify their particular choice, goes to length about a special barrel, special twist, special chamber, red-line loading,etc,etc,etc and then brags that it will outdo an over the counter stock rifle.

roger

It seems really simple to me.

If you hand load, the 7x57 is better.

If you use factory ammo, the 7mm-08 is better.

It depends on the game hunted and the case of reloads vs factory, I hand load so it doesn't matter 6 of one/half dozen of other.
For hunting Elk or bigger with only factory loads 7x57mm 175gr loads, any smaller 7mm-08.

This is a funny thread. The practical performance difference between the two cartridges is pretty slim. The 7-08 is suited to a short action, while a 7x57 is suited to a long action. In their respective action lengths, both can be significantly outdone by cases with larger capacities. It's really kind of silly to talk performance with either of these two offerings, considering everything else out there. Personally, I like the 7x57, 6 Rem, 257 Rob, etc. I like them for the nostalgia. We all have a reason for why we build in certain calibers, velocity isn't mine anymore. If it still was, I sure wouldn't pick either of these two cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by Boxhead:
I went with a mid-length action and the 7x57 via the Swede. About perfect.

I just love this build. Everything about it speaks of class. Well done.

quote:

Originally posted by MR:
For hunting Elk or bigger with only factory loads 7x57mm 175gr loads, any smaller 7mm-08.

I'm not exactly sure what you tried to say in that line, but the only 175gr factory loads that I have ever seen in 7x57 is a fairly generic round nose bullet by Federal. For elk, I would much rather have a Federal Premium 140gr Barnes TSX, than a not so fast 175gr round nose bullet.

I actually shoot both rifles.

The other reason I think 7mm-08 is better for the factory ammo shooter is the simple fact that 7mm-08 ammo is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more available off the shelf, and offered in wayyyyyyyyyyyy more configurations.

I really like the 7x57, but you need to handload your ammo.

I also really like the 7mm-08, especially for kids. My son has shot quite a lot of the larger plainsgame animals with his Savage youth model 7mm-08. Quite honestly, I have been amazed by that little rifle at times. He has had numerous DRT kills on blue wildebeest, black wildebeest, oryx and hartebeest.

I like 'em both but if you only shoot factory ammo, the 7mm-08 is the better option.

A 140 accubond or partition out of 7-08 will hammer any elk, anywhere in the world, easily.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
A 140 accubond or partition out of 7-08 will hammer any elk, anywhere in the world, easily.

Exactly!!!!

And....I can go to the local Bass Pro, Gander Mountain or Academy Sports and buy a box of each.

I sure don't disagree that the 7x57 has to be handloaded and I go beyond that, although Wasbeeman condems such trickery

I would also keep in mind that the slow factory 175 gr. RN bullet penetrates like a bazooka, that old slow long as a pencil bullets will shoot through a elk lengthwise just like a Barnes or Nosler, mostly because its slow and doesn't meet the resistance a faster bullet does...Historically that is the how and why it was the rage of the African continent, and used by so many Europeans and Africans and the 175 gr. solids would penetrate a tank.

I have used that bullet on a few elk and early on a lot of deer, it always amazed me and in the thick stuff North of Sun Valley, Id. I would much prefer a 175 gr. Corelokt or Nosler at 2400 FPS than any 140 gr. bullet out of a 7-08, but that's just my choice...The 7-08 is certainl a fine deer round, but seems to me a border line elk round.

I'm not a fan of using a 7mm-08 on really big game but an acquaintance of mine at work has two kids. A boy and a girl. The boy has taken one moose and the girl two moose with a 7mm-08 using factory ammo (140s). I guess under the right circumstances the little 7 will do what needs to be done.