The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 8X57 +P Factory loads?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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one of us |
Now that we have a "modern" factory rifle chambered in 8X57 manufactured on this side of the pond, (2004 Remington classic) maybe the ammo makers will start loading "adult" loads in 8X57 similar in pressure and performance to Euro loadings. Perhaps the +P designation would keep the lawyers @ bay. @2800fps with Nosler 180gr Ballistic tips would be deadly on game up to and including Elk, a 200gr partition @ 2600fps would handle just about anything on this continent. | ||
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| one of us |
That would be nice, but highly unlikely... Wildcat, did you ever get 3000 fps from you 200grain 8mm project? | |||
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| one of us |
Why buy a probably inferior US product if you have so many good and excellent European loads from top-notch manufacturers available ? The present weak 8mm Mauser loads from the usual US suspects are fine and even sometimes accurate for their intended purpose (whitetail deer, woodlands hunting). If one needs more performance, everybody else supplies quality: Blaser-RUAG, Geco, old Hirtenberger, Igman, Lapua, Norma, Prvi Partizan, RWS, Sako, Sellier & Bellot. Puzzled, Carcano | |||
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| one of us |
Yeah, the Igman is about $5 a box if you buy a case. | |||
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| one of us |
Sometimes, these European loads don't have the quality bullets that the American loadings do. It's also easier to get American loadings. I've read a couple of postings on Igman ammo on this board. One poster said that, when using Igman 8mm ammo, he regularly had separated jackets - the jacket came completely off at impact. I have some of the Igman and S&B 8x57. The bullets are not in the same class as the premium ammo. Scott | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: Scott, you *are* right here, of course. And I have to correct myself, with an apology. Thus, the red-faced smiley in the aubject header... ;-) Igman and Sellier & Bellot are not in the same high class as, let's say, Lapua, Norma and Sako, as RUAG and RWS. Rather, they are a notch above Remington, maybe in the Winchester or PMC league. Thanking you for the protest :-), Carcano | |||
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one of us |
I have no problems with using European ammunition. The Norma, RWS, Lapua ammunition are superb. I have not personally had any trouble with S&B, though some people apparently have. The problems with them is that their importation is very erratic. RWS has gotten to be basically unavailable, I have had Lapua and Norma ammunition on back order at two different places for three months. I have seen one S&B listing vanish from a site and apparently is not available through them. Given the options, I would like to see home grow 8x57IS with decent power. I doubt if it will be available. The makers are worried about the .318" bores and poor quality guns availble. I wonder what the SAAAMI pressure standards are for the gun? If they are set up at a very low level (35-40K psi) it might be impossible to get a "+P" type of loading made here due to liablity factors. | |||
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| one of us |
I'm not an expert on 8x57. Can someone explain the differences on bore size? I saw the reference to .318 and .323. I didn't know there was more than one 8x57 bore size. Example - I have some surplus military mausers (VZ-24 and Persian mausers) in 8x57. Are these .318? What would the Rem. 700 Classic be? If I have a Ruger M77 rebarreled to 8x57, what will the bore size be? Is surplus 8x57 ammo a different size than factory commercial 8x57? Thanks for any help, Scott | |||
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| one of us |
You refer to the "J" and "S" bore 8mm's. Early in the 20th century the German military engineers changed the bore groove specification from 0.318" to 0.323". There were .318" bore rifles made into sporters well into the 20's, but military Mausers were all .323" by the end of WWI, unless rebarreled. - Dan | |||
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| one of us |
CIP pressures are 390MPa (56550 psi). SAAMI pressures are 35000 psi. | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
Quote: Actually, the ONLY 8X57mm or 8X57mmR rifles that had true .318" bores were some of those with gunsmith-made barrels. The original Gewehr M1888's issued to the German Army were made with .322"-.323" BORES, despite the fact that they were originally firing .318" BULLETS through them! A lot of these rifles were converted after 1905 (when "S" ammo was adopted) by German Ordnance to safely fire the later .323" S-size bullets by merely opening up the chamber throats so the cartridges freely released the larger bullets when fired, even though the M '88's are now considered "too weak" for "S" ammo pressures!!  | ||
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one of us |
Excellent article in the current issue of Handloader... | |||
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| one of us |
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%41%4D%4D%55%4E%49%54%49%4F%4E&dept2=%43%45%4E%54%45%52%46%49%52%45%20%52%49%46%4C%45&dept3=%38%58%35%37%20%4A%53 Selliar and Bellot seems to be in stock, in 2 styles of 8x57JS , at Midland. According to thier webpage they also have 8x57 JR in stock too. | |||
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one of us |
I've had good results form the S&B in both 7x57 and 8x57 with their SPCE bullet. My 7mm with scope shoots them into about 1 1/8" all day. | |||
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| one of us |
I would hope that some of the American companies would load to the Euro specs, but ain't going to hold my breath. There is one company that has new loading that no one has mentioned in this thread. It is Mitchells, and here is the link to their site. web page I haven't used this ammo, but have heard good things about it on other websites. On using Euro ammo, I have used the Norma 8x57 Alaskan and Vulkan loads and both are powerful and accurate in my Mauser. Here is the link to the store where I buy my Norma ammo. The best thing would be to call them and see how many boxes they have on hand, and then make your order over the phone. I know they usually have a few boxes on the shelf. web page Hope you get good service with this company. I have never had a problem with these guys and their service. | |||
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| new member |
.....I have looked for S&B's premium 220 Sierra BT loading for my M48. It seems to qualify for +P due to it's 2471fps velocity. Saddly it appears to have not made it to our shores yet....... | |||
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| one of us |
Quote:  Well, I haven't been able to do anything other than a little loading for hunting and the usual harvest of excess Whitetails here on the farm. (My 14yr old son did harvest a nice fat spikehorn in October)  I joined a trap league @ work, and one thing led to another. Before it was over, I had bought an Italian Over/Under, invested in shotgun reloading equipment and run 1500 rounds thru 'er shooting trap, skeet and sporting clays. I have settled on the 8X68S for the 3000fps/200gr 8mm Cartridge. I may end up a few fps shy of 3000 but not enough to make a diference. I have the dies. brass, a 1904 Portuguese triggerguard with a hinged floorplate and of course a M98K barreled action with a really good bore. I ran across a fellow @ work that has a TIG welder @ home and he is very handy with it. I think the first order is to do surgery on the trigger guard to open it up to the rear and little to the front to get 3.6" length inside. Santa brought me one of Jim Wisner's "straddle" floor plates. Right now I am building a 2 story garage with an apartment on the rear ground floor for my mother. Guess what the whole second floor will be used for.  I will keep you posted when I start making progress.  | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
I see some recommedations for Sellier & Belliot (S&B). It is most definitely +P. However, I've heard that they load their ammo with the fastest burning powder they can to save on powder costs, so pressure is usually quite high, even in moderate temps. Let me just say, this S&B stuff is utter crap. I bought a bunch of this stuff once because is was so dreamy cheap. Calibers included 8x57, 6.5x57, and various others. Anyway, I had multiple blown primers and pierced primers. Could hardly opening the bolt on many; extractor marks galore. Then, to add insult to injury, many of the case rims were too thick to fit in the appropriately designated shellholder. Didn't much matter, because the ones that I could reload separated at the case head on the second firing! Now, to be honest, it didn't shoot that bad (not great, but not terrible), but I'd hardly let that be the determing factor with all the other problems. If you want good quality +P 8x57 you can pony up the dough and get some Norma ammo. 9.3 | ||
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| one of us |
Dear 9,3x62, I am afraid that your negative impressions are not generally corroborated by reality :-). Sellier & Bellot is the most used centerfire rifle ammunition in Germany and in middle Europe in general. I would rank them as only "middle class", maybe in the same category as Igman. Slightly better than FNM and Remington. The primer problems which you allege plainly don't show up in no-defective weapons. However, it is true that their primer pocket specification may be a wee bit different from SAAMI specs, so that US reloaders may encounter difficulties in seating US primers. Sincerely, Carcano | |||
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| one of us |
The only S&B ammo I've fired was thier 62gr load in 5.56mm or ".223" it was very accurate, and chronoed 3100fps from a 20" barrel. The brass does seem a little thin, and soft. | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Quote: Yes, primer seating was also a problem on some cases, as the pocket seemed a bit too tight. I forgot to add that to my tirade. I had no bone to pick with S&B, and I have based my opinion of them on my experience with the 600 or so rounds in 3 or 4 calibers I was unfortunate enough to come by. Believe me, I wanted this stuff to work out, especially the 6.5x57 as brass for it with the proper headstamp is mighty hard to come by stateside. I must take exception to the implication that the fault was in the rifle. In ALL calibers, the rifles never had ANY case/primer problems of ANY sort before or after this ammo; and some of these rifles have in excess of 1500 rounds through them since, plenty of times with max loads. I simply cannot find any reason to blame the rifles. I must also take exception to S&B being better than Remington ammo (or brass for that matter). Can't say that this is even close to consistent with my experience. Germany and Middle Europe. Isn't that where Stihl chain saws are made - another S&B-like product. Now the Swedes, now they know how to make a chain saw... | ||
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| one of us |
Where can one get some of the euro manufactured 8mm like norma, rws and lapua? | |||
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One of Us |
Carcano is so Euro-biased/anti-american he would prefer a VW bug to a Caddilac. Sour grapes for sure.. The rest of this thread adds up to a good reason to roll your own, although it sure would be nice to see the 8X57 get some real reckognition stateside, that could very likley spawn some better bullet availability. | |||
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