Posted by Ruff

"It seems the 1st argument against the WSM is that it will not equal the velocity of the WM if both are loaded to the same pressure. Loaded to SAAMI max pressure the WSM and the old WM are so close that the difference is inconsequetial with 24" or 26" " .



The only reason I even comment on these WSM threads is because the WSM fans seem have bought the advertising hype......the small case will magically equal or out perform the bigger case . I just don't see that .



The WSM is what it is . A 180 gr 30. caliber bullet at around 3000 fps is a good spot to be . But the larger Winchester case will do 3100 fps just as easily . Whether the 100 fps is worth bothering with or not is up to the individual . Personally , I would choose a 30/06 over the WSM as I would view the 150 fps difference between those two to not be worth the bother.



For an example of 300 Winchester data that is not throttled back , here are some loads from the Speer #8 loading book ............





Test gun , 300 Winchester M-70 , 24 inch barrel



180 gr Speer spitzer , 81 gr old H4831 , 3183 fps



200 gr Speer spitzer , 79 gr old H4831 , 3016 fps



150 gr Speer spitzer , 79 gr IMR 4350 , 3479 fps





As to those who claim to have loaded and shot both cartridges and can tell little difference , my view is that it is not likely the layman can test enough different barrels in each caliber (with strain gauges attached or other valid pressure detection methods) to make a statitically valid comparision . One or two (or half a dozen) rifles in each caliber is just not enough to make a firm conclution .



Reguarding the military match or sniper load for the 300 , I highly doubt that it is loaded to maximum safe speed . I would bet that it is loaded to provide a good level of ballistics and high accuracy potential across a wide sampling of 300 Winchester barrels .



Shoot a WSM if you like , just don't kid yourself that it will perform equally with a larger case .



I don't have a 300 magnum of any sort at present , but personally , I would pick the 300 Weatherby cartridge.

Allen,

Nicely said. I too have stayed out of these threads because I would obviously be biased as I don't own/shoot the WSM, but I concur wholeheartedly with your comments.

Amoung a number of other issuess, it makes me hostile when the .300 Win. Mag. gets portrayed as not cutting it when it comes to accuracy compared to the .300 WSM. That type of portrayal could only come from someone who is unfamiliar with the .300 Win. Mag. cartridge. Actually, the 1963 .300 Win. Mag. is one of the most inherently accurate factory cartridges ever developed, has been used by all branches of the U.S. armed forces in high power events, and has been used to win countless civilian high-power events. It's been used to win the 1000 yard Wimbleton more than any other cartridge. It's been used to take just about every species of big game on planet earth over the last forty years, and often at extreme range.

Just about every maker of custom rifles will remark at how easy it is to achieve truly fine accuracy with the .300 Win. Mag. In fact Kenny Jarrett - Mr. Accuracy himself - once stated that in his opinion the .300 Win. Mag. was the most accurate and versatile factory cartridge available, and that if he could only own one rifle chambered for a factory cartridge, it would be a .300 Win. Mag.

I've been astounded over the years at the number of incredible accurate out-of-the-box .300 Win. Mag. rifles I've seen and owned since circa 1980, including pre and post-1964 Model 70s, Remington 700s, Browning Safaris, and even Ruger No. 1s. And by incredibly accurate, I mean five-shots well under an inch (sometimes under a half-inch) at 100 yards with out-of-the-box, untuned factory rifles with factory ammo.

With custom hunting rifles, I own four .300 Win. Mags with sporter-weight barrels that will keep five shots under a half-inch under 100 yads with premium bullet handloads, and one of my rifles will produce groups in the .300" range on occasion, and I have the targets to prove it.

The old .300 Win. Mag. won't cut it for accuracy but the .300 WSM will? Yeah, right.....

AD

I know this type of thead is mainly for scotch and water discussions, but I wish to opine anyway.

I do own a .300 Win Mag in a Remington ADL Synthetic and the first 2 groups I shot for accuracy ran under 3/4 inch with Remington factory 180 gr. Ballistic Tips. The only modification to the gun had been a trigger job, with the factory trigger crisped up and set to about 3lbs. Enough said about .300 Win Mag accuracy. However..., I do think the appeal for the .300 WSM is in it's ability to be put into a slightly shorter, lighter rifle. I don't think you can cram a .300 Win Mag into a Kimber 8400 Montana, but they have the .300 WSM. Now if you a pure Mauser action fan, this doesn't mean a hill of beans, so I would go with the bigger case.

All that said, these gun and ammo companies are in the business of selling rifles, lots of them. So, if they can gin up some interest in a new product, no matter how slight the differences in performance, and get it written up in every gun rag then they have accomplished their goal. More power to them. I really like the interest stirred up by these new catridges. The stronger their business, the better for the firearms industry in general. And if we can get them to cater to us hard core gun nuts concerning quality and configurations along the way then we'll all be happy. Hey, we all need a reason for getting a new gun anyway.

I guess what I don't understand is why people get so mad over this. They say things over the computer they wouldn't dare say to a stranger face to face. And expecially about mincule differences like one high powered round to the next. I used to get upset, and then one day, I thought to myself, hey this is the stupid internet. I mean for all I know, there is a 12 year old kid on the other side of these messages. So now its like garbage food for the mind when reading the debates of the 300RUM vs. 300Weatherby vs. WSM vs. whatever. In the end, it probably makes minscule differences in kill rate, or how successful a hunter is.



On my first moose trip to newfoundland, I learned the caliber you choose, and whether its .5" MOA gun vs. 2MOA gun, matters very little or if any at all. What mattered more was the physical condition over all. How long and far you can hump to cover ground.



But if we are on this page, then that means we are gun nuts. And enjoy discussing splitting hair discussions abou the merits of the 300WSM vs. the Win mag. But I think we need to understand how silly it is to get mad. I mean, this is just the internet. Or forgo pulling out our gun experience resumes, demanding respect from a computer monitor. I have to admit, I have baited furious people, just kinda getting a laugh on thier account. And I probably shouldn't. But hey its just entertainment. What I do at the range or field is real.

I beleive that the same arguements came up when the 22 PPC came out. The old timers who had won so many matches with the 222 bragged about all their great accomplishments with it etc. The 222 is indeed a fine cartrige. The 22 PPC was just a little bit better. In the Benchrest game where accuracy is the only measure of performance the PPC's have driven the 222 to near extinction.
The 300 Win Mag is a fine old cartridge. It is very accurate and extremely useful for hunting. Since accuracy isn't the only criteria in the Hunting field it should remain a useful hunting cartridge from now on I doubt it will ever be "extinct". The 300 WSM is so popular because it is a slightly improved version of it. It is very slightly more accurate on average. Brass life will be slightly longer. If you already have a 300 Win you don't really "need" a 300 WSM. But if you're buying new the WSM is the more modern version.........DJ