Guys,
What barrel length and contour do you feel best suits a 358Norma. Donor action is a Ruger MkII S/S currently in 7mmRemMag. Do I:
1. Match contour and 24" length of a Ruger 338WM barrel?
2. Match contour and length of the current 7mmRemMag barrel?
3. Match contour of 7mmRemMag barrel but extend it to 26"?
4. Any other opinions?
I'd like an all-up weight in the 8.5-9lb range. It will use stock Ruger mounts and probably a 4x Leupold or 2-7x Leupold. Stock is currently a boat-paddle (ouch!) but I will probably replace it with a Hogue synthetic.
Cheers...
Con

Barrel length is strictly a personal issue.....use the length that helps balance the gun and is visually pleasing to you. Even if you cut the Norma all the way back to 20" it'll still have more than enough power for any big game you can hunt. I wouldn't go over 24" as I just like short barrels.....you may see life differently.

Get the website of your favorite barrel maker and check out their contours.....a #5 might be the weight you want. That is one powerful and heavy recoiling cartridge so you're on the right track looking for some weight. You can also add lead shot to the barrel channel in the stock to suit and balance as well so do more looking at aesthetics in the barrel than anything else. Add weight later to suit.

My 358 Norma is a 19" Mannlicher. Norma factory 250 ammo gives me just over 2700FPS. Figure 15-20fps per inch. I think the round likes powders in the 4350 RL19 range. With the larger bore you don't need those real long barrels.

Loadtech calls the difference between a 19 and 26" barrel only 115FPS. To me I would select the barrel length that gives you the best balance.

Time for coffee.

quote:

2. Match contour and length of the current 7mmRemMag barrel?

If t'were I, I'd do this. The .358 tube of identical exterior dimensions will still be a little lighter than the 7mm one......

El Deguello,
Fair enough, I'm just a bit worried that the current contour creates a rifle that is a bit too light, hence options 1 and 3. The "boat-paddle" stock will remain initially, which will make the rifle a touch exciting , but I suppose the hollowed out portions under the barrel make it easy to add weight. Today I handled a blued/walnut version of the MkII in 7mmRemMag and its definately got the right amount of weight to it.
Cheers...
Con

I shortened the barrel of my .358 Norma mag from 24 inches to 22 because my gunsmith made the contour a bit heavier than I liked and the rifle was a bit to muzzle heavy. Having said that, 2 inches of barrel don't weigh very much either!

Blindfolded, I think few of us could tell a 26 inch barrel from a slightly-heavier contour barrel that was shorter...

I cannot locate my chronograph records now, but the difference in velocity with full hunting loads and 250gr bullets was truy trivial (maybe 50-60fps).

I will say that I find 26 inch tubes a bit bothersome in the forest, but other than that I can see little differences.

John

I would go with the 24 inch tube, and mabye a boyds laminate stock. Although if I could find a decent wood take off ruger stock it would be fine too.
The .358 norma is a cool round and would be a top choice for alaska. I would like to build one on a 03 springfield, I also have a model 70 classic in 7mm STW that would be great in .358 STA, but since the demise of USRAC I think I will hang on to the rather rare chambering.
...tj3006

My Sako 358 has a Douglas bbl, 23" long and has perfect balance. I shoot 225 Nosler PT w/69gr. H4895 for 2950 fps. The beauty of the 358 is it's slightly underbore capacity which means you can use the medium burners and stll get top velocity and accuracy with less powder.
The 358 Norma is a great cartridge.

Cut to it's bare essence the 358Norma is a 338Winchester for those that want something
that's just a bit different.

Yes, you loose something from a shorter barrel
but not any earthshaking ammount.

Go for the balance and making yourself happy with the rifle.... though personally I'd go with a 24" barrel, something with about an
11/16-3/4" (~0.7") muzzle diameter.

I'm always more comfortable with a rifle that's a touch "nose heavy"

Like my 7mm Mag, it's a remington 700
with a barrel taper that's somewhat thinner than Palma taper 26" barrel, it's only .710dia at the muzzle.

AllanD

You know, if you like the taper the barrel has now, the quick, cheap, dirty way of avoiding some stock work would be to match the factory barrel contour and buy a replacement stock. You'd be shooting that much faster.

And if my vote counts, 24" wouldn't be too bad. I like barrels to be a tad longer for a magnum, but that's just me.

I made one with a 27" barrel once. The customer is a big man, and it balances well. It delivers regularly groups at 100 meters measuring well under 1/2", and propells 250grs BarnesXFB close to 300 f/s, duplicating the .358STA with a 24" barrel.
It never stops to impress me.

Have you given any though to the .358 STA? The .358 Norma's performance isn't even close.

quote:

Have you given any though to the .358 STA? The .358 Norma's performance isn't even close.

It can be done but due to the longer case at least it will need a longer magazine box and follower. As well as ejector work or swap I believe.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Have you given any though to the .358 STA? The .358 Norma's performance isn't even close.

It can be done but due to the longer case at least it will need a longer magazine box and follower. As well as ejector work or swap I believe.

ramrod340 I'm not sure on the length issue. But on the ejector why do you think it may require work they both have a .532 case head. What am I over looking?

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
Have you given any though to the .358 STA? The .358 Norma's performance isn't even close.

Well, what is close?
In Barnes reloading manual, the diffrence at 300 yards is 1"!
Difference in energy at the same distance is 400 ft/lbs.

Close enough, IMHO. A 26" on the Norma is on par with a 24" STA.

quote:

Close enough, IMHO. A 26" on the Norma is on par with a 24" STA.

Can't see many people going to the trouble of a STA and leaving it 24". I have a 358 Norma. I get factory loads at 2710 from my 19" barrel. An extra 200fps from the STA would give me about 1' less drop at 400 with a 200 zero. Soooooo.

Jay
It is the ejector not the extractor that needs work You need to swap the mag and follower with one from a RSM and then shorten the bolt stop and ejector to allow the bolt to clear the back of the mag. Same thing as the conversion to 375.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=84&tocid=1186

Jay Johnston,
I've actually given thought to 358STA, 35/338RUM and the full-length 35RUM ... but using one of my Rem700 actions instead. I've got a 26" barrel on my 8mmRemMag and I dont mind the longer barrels, hence why the larger cases where considered. But ... when all is said and done, the Norma seems the most practical, and in a Ruger stainless/synthetic configuration it should make a pretty nice hunting rifle.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

Can't see many people going to the trouble of a STA and leaving it 24". I have a 358 Norma. I get factory loads at 2710 from my 19" barrel. An extra 200fps from the STA would give me about 1' less drop at 400 with a 200 zero. Soooooo.

I used theese numbers, since Barnes manual used 24" barrels on both. My point was, that the difference is more visible on the paper than in the woods.
Not to badmouth the STA, it is a super cartridge .
I would make a STA in a Remington, and a Norma in a Ruger.

quote:

I used theese numbers, since Barnes manual used 24" barrels on both. My point was, that the difference is more visible on the paper than in the woods.
Not to badmouth the STA, it is a super cartridge .

I was agreeing with you. I see nothing wrong with the STA if you want the longer case and 200+/- FPS. For me the 358Norma will do anything I need it to do.

I'd go 358 Norma 24 or 25 inch #4 contour. Will be a bit heavier than factory and I would flute it. This should be 1 size smaller than a sendaro.

Con,

I would opt for a barrel of 24" or a 25 1/2"barrel like the cz's have with the same contour as the .338 Ruger barrel, may be the tiniest bit larger diameter at the barrels end to ensure weight is on a par with the standard Ruger .338 winnie.

You have a short .358 cal rifle in your .350 rem mag so now you need your long range .358 cal rifle so put the 2-7 on it.

Sounds like a cool project !!

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
Have you given any though to the .358 STA? The .358 Norma's performance isn't even close.

Well, what is close?
In Barnes reloading manual, the diffrence at 300 yards is 1"!
Difference in energy at the same distance is 400 ft/lbs.

Close enough, IMHO. A 26" on the Norma is on par with a 24" STA.

Bent I took my figures from Nosler number 4. I took the highest velocity for both guns. With a 250 Gr. bullet. I used a 100 yard zero. The results.

.358 STA_______358 Norma
Muzzle 2895 MV_______2628MV
Energy 300___2944 -11.1___2312 -16.2
That looks more like 600 pounds and 5" in my math.

That's about 22.8% more power.

Jay,

You were right about the numbers in Noslers NO.4, but they show very low numbers for the Norma. Why, I do not know, but I can assure you that 2800 is normal with a 250 grs bullet from a 24" barrel. As is 3000 with the same bullet from the STA. The difference is about 200 f/s. Not saying that is not a difference, but ranges has to be streched quite a bit to make a difference.
Using a 100 yard zero is a bit strange for shooting at longer ranges, or what?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Jay,

You were right about the numbers in Noslers NO.4, but they show very low numbers for the Norma. Why, I do not know, but I can assure you that 2800 is normal with a 250 grs bullet from a 24" barrel. As is 3000 with the same bullet from the STA. The difference is about 200 f/s. Not saying that is not a difference, but ranges has to be streched quite a bit to make a difference.
Using a 100 yard zero is a bit strange for shooting at longer ranges, or what?

I get 2750fps with 250gr bullets in my 22 inch barreled .358 Norma (with primer pockets tight at at least 7 case loadings -- my conservative criteria of 'not excessive pressure') so I agree with Bent.

Sure the STA has a greater capacity and is faster, but the difference is less than I expected when I looked into things carefully.

John

a 100yard zero is better for revealing trajectory differences between different cartridges with the same bullet OR different bullets with the same cartridge/load.


If you sight them all to 300yards and shoot them at 300yards there willl be no difference in trajectory
(that you can see on the target) between a 257Weatherby and a 45-70.

So you are deliberatly sighting them in for 100yards to show the drop near the end of it's flight rather than longer range becasue the difference in long range ballistics is a more exaggerated midrange "rise", which you simply don't see on the paper.

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by jpb:

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Jay,

You were right about the numbers in Noslers NO.4, but they show very low numbers for the Norma. Why, I do not know, but I can assure you that 2800 is normal with a 250 grs bullet from a 24" barrel. As is 3000 with the same bullet from the STA. The difference is about 200 f/s. Not saying that is not a difference, but ranges has to be streched quite a bit to make a difference.
Using a 100 yard zero is a bit strange for shooting at longer ranges, or what?

I get 2750fps with 250gr bullets in my 22 inch barreled .358 Norma (with primer pockets tight at at least 7 case loadings -- my conservative criteria of 'not excessive pressure') so I agree with Bent.

Sure the STA has a greater capacity and is faster, but the difference is less than I expected when I looked into things carefully.

John

No using the 100 yard zero is not unusual to demonstrate bullet drop. I could zero a 45-70 and .358 at 300 any they would be equal. A 100 yard zero is the norm when comparing trajectories.

Now as to you load I'd really like to see where that is documented or what it is? I've seen one load near that in an old manual that many times I can't reach their max loads because of pressure. But share that documented load with us please and the manual you got it from.

Allan I read your post it looks like you understand about apples and oranges.

You need to do what you like or think you will like.

I would tend to match the contour that is already on the rifle or go a size bigger.
If you are close to the gunsmith, have him leave the barrel long and just cut down in 1/2 inch increments until the balance is what you prefer.

I just had an 03 action rebarreled to 338-06. A #5 barrel instead of #3 showed up. I had the smith leave the barrel @ 25 inches. I took it home looked studied it, put a sling on it carried it around on a hike. Took about a week to decide.

I ended up cutting the barrel to 23.5 because:
1. 25 inches looked to long for the gun
2. was very front heavy, and it weighed 9.5 lbs without scope.

The 23.5 tube looked great, but was still a little barrel heavy. So I had the smith flute the barrel to reduce weight instead of cutting more off. Wasn't a big deal, he cut me a break on the fluting job since the wrong barrel showed up.

All in all I think the gun looks better, than if I would have had the #3 installed. The balance is right where I personally like it.

I didn't even bother to check the weight. I will after the blueing is done and rifle is put back together. The only way to explain it. The rifle just feels good on the shoulder and how it handles.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:

Now as to you load I'd really like to see where that is documented or what it is? I've seen one load near that in an old manual that many times I can't reach their max loads because of pressure. But share that documented load with us please and the manual you got it from.

Hi Jay

Sceptical are we? Good! That is always the way to treat data from the internet -- mine included in case I make a typo!

I'm in Sweden so the powders I can get are Norma and Vihtavurori. Both provide pressure tested loads but since we do not suffer from the plague of lawyers that the US does, the 'max' loads are indeed maximum and without a wide 'lawyer margin'.

Note that all loads below are for 250grain bullets.

I have loads of of the velocity from 2 pressure-tested sources. One is from Vihtavouri and is in their loading manual of 2002 (which I have as a pdf file on my hard disk). Max load is N160 80.2grains for 2790fps. ****note editing May 9 2006 to fix cut and paste error! As I note above, be cautious! :-) ***

Norma recommends Norma URP 72grains to a max of 76.5grains URP for 2690fps to 2841fps -- see their current website for this one. http://www.norma.cc/sida/eng/index.html

I have another load from Norma (this one is on a pdf file on my hard disk) using 59.9 to 64.8grains of Norma 203-b for 2635 to 2795fps. (this is 'very' similar to Reloader 15 which yo may be able to get easier and in fact is made at the same factory in Sweden by Bofors).

I have used all of these loads in my rifle and have chronographed them. In my rifle (which has an extremely smooth Border barrel of minimum bore and chamber dimensions) 2750fps is not difficult and primer pockets are still tight after at least 7 loads. I can go faster, but don't -- I switch to my bigger calibre rifle...

I considered chambering for the 358 STA (I have the action length to do so -- Rem 700) but here in Sweden the .358 Norma is fairly easy to find whereas the .358 STA is unheard of. The price of dies and the resale value of a .358 Norma vs a .358 STA made up my mind!

I am in no way claiming that the STA isn't faster -- at the same pressure its larger case volume will indeed give a bit more velocity.

However, my shoulder doesn't need much more smacking than a lightweight .358 Norma Mag can provide!

John

jpb

That Vihtavurori data is some I don't have thanks. The VV data that I have is in pdf form and doesn't show the .358.

The brass problem you talk about for the STA being in Sweden is understandable. Here I just order 8MM Rem Mag and run it through the 358 die to expand the necks.

Here the 358 Norma brass is 22.99 per 20 that's the cheapest source I've found to date. The 8MM Mag is 35.00 a hundred.

The STA being a non-standard caliber for your country it is very understandable why you made your choice all thing being equal I would have probably done the same or went .338 Lapua or 9.3.

With the big guns I only worry about weather the shoulder smacking affects my ability to shoot the gun well because they are not going to be used in weekly benchrest sessions.

Since I do use some VV powders and they do have a lot of very good ones it's looking like I need to pick up a real VV manual.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
Here the 358 Norma brass is 22.99 per 20 that's the cheapest source I've found to date. The 8MM Mag is 35.00 a hundred.

I recently got a 50piece bag of 358Norma brass
off the shelf at my Local Cabela's for $48.99

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
Here the 358 Norma brass is 22.99 per 20 that's the cheapest source I've found to date. The 8MM Mag is 35.00 a hundred.

I recently got a 50piece bag of 358Norma brass
off the shelf at my Local Cabela's for $48.99

AllanD

Allan.....can you post photos of your 358 Norma.....I like the round even though I've never owned one. Is yours a sako?...Mauser?...Remington?...what action and barrel.....I'm a nut for custom guns.

Ruger is standard boxed,Winchester and Remington are H&H magium length actions.358Norma.Just make the neck so you don't have to trim 300WM brass.

Hej guys

Note that I made a cut and paste error above in my first Vihtavuori load (which I have now corrected).

As I said in my post, be alert for typos and be cautious! (this is why I rarely post loads on the internet...

John

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
Here the 358 Norma brass is 22.99 per 20 that's the cheapest source I've found to date. The 8MM Mag is 35.00 a hundred.

I recently got a 50piece bag of 358Norma brass
off the shelf at my Local Cabela's for $48.99

AllanD

Allan.....can you post photos of your 358 Norma.....I like the round even though I've never owned one. Is yours a sako?...Mauser?...Remington?...what action and barrel.....I'm a nut for custom guns.

The 358Norma that I'm feeding is a rather plain
VanPatten conversion on an '03 Springfield.
It is mounted in a rather bland Fajen Walnut stock.

It was a replacement barrel, not a "rebore"
but I am at this point unsure of who's barrel
the rifle was built with, I need to measure over it carefully and consult VanPatten about what barrel was used when the rifle was built, IF they still have their records from the 60's

It was built long enough ago that it had a Kollmorgen scope with the adjustments in the mount, but one of the mount screws was broken
and the crosswires were dangling inside the scope when purchased.
So it now wears Leupold mounts and an older (steel tube) Redfield scope.
Somewhere I still have the "original" scope and mount.
And someday it would be "nice" to put the rifle in a nicer stock.

I'm currently camera impaired.

My brother an I aquire most of our rifles second(or third or fourth, etc...) and the previous owner is usually "unavailable" to tell the story...

Like the Hart-barreled custom rifle on a Rem 700
(a #5Hart (Medium heavy) taper barrel in 7mmMag)
I aquired recently, it took a week to determine who built the rifle...

Atleast on the 358Norma the gunsmith engraved their name into the barrel shank making who made it crystal clear


AllanD

Thanks Allan.....I can't think of a better thing to do to a Springfield than to turn it into a .358 Norma.

Somehow that seems appropriate!!!!

I know folks think they should stay original....let them buy Springfields and let them keep them original.....If I get one it's gonna be sporterized!!!!!

I'm reasonably certain that this particular rifle was built while I was in Kindergarden....

So I refuse to take credit... or blame.... for crimes of the distant past

As for the original scope? it was busted so removing it?
Non issue. the mount? broken screw and the adjustment was "frozen"

I am planning on grabbing up one of the many Springfield actions I've been seeing lately at the gunshows

and build my own contribution to the sporterized springfields that drive the purists into a their usual
anti-sporter diatribes.

Frankly I wouldn't build a 30-06 family cartridge sporter on a Mauser Action as I do believe the springfield is a superior action.

I would however build a "tweed" sporter (6.5x55 barrel on a smal ring turk action) in a heartbeat....

My plan for a Sporterized springfield? a 35Whelen done as a "period piece" to mimic a sporter built between the wars, complete to a Redfield receiver sight, though I would take artistic license (for actually USING the rifle) and put it in a laminated stock

Thinking about it I'd also like to build a 25-06, Marked as a "25 Niedner" though cut with a SAAMI std reamer on a springfield though this one would definatly wear modern mounts and a proper varmint scope.

Let the purists scream... I have my DavidClark muffs handy...

AllanD