Grandad was an old WWII vet who served in the south Pacific in the navy. He was also an avid marksman, hunter, and outdoorsman until the day he died, and, is single handedly responsible for instilling the love of these things in ME. Anyhow, his big game rifle that he was very fond of and the ONLY big game rifle I can ever remember him hunting with. Oh, he had others some pre and post war 30-06's, a couple big lever guns, a .243, and I seem to recall some rifles which shot a belted something-or-other. But he always hunted with the 7x57 mauser eventually topped with an older Weaver scope when his eyes needed glasses. I fondly remember how put-out he was when that day finally came...

Anyway, not to long ago I made an impulse buy. I picked up an FN mauser built into a 7x57. It's a fine, well made rifle. Freefloated, bedded, decelerator, Timney, and complete with Redfield peep sights; somehow nostalgia got the better of me and I couldn't resist.

So here I am, with a couple of other rifles in the safe that can do everything a 7x57 can do and more at further distances with bigger bullets, that have never seen action! Time permitting, I'll pick up an elk or deer tag this next month, and see what this venerable cartridge can do. Honestly, I can't wait. I've done some plinking with ammo a buddy had in his garage, and near as I can tell it's right on. Hell, a 250 yard animal should be a snap. It will be interesting to get her dialed in on paper and see what she'll do! And even more interesting to see what else Grandad knew that I didn't! lol

Anyone have any favorite off the shelf ammo for these things? Federal loads Partitions comercially, right? I've been reloading for so damn long it's embarassing.

Off the shelf ammo? You've got to be kidding! Buy a set of dies and some components for that thing, man!

If you are going to buy comercial ammo look at the Federally loaded trophy bonded bearclaws. I love these bullets. Can't always afford them though.

David

Almost forgot:
Congratulations on the rifle!! Enjoy it!

David

I had an FN 7x57. It was throated for 175-gr. RN bullets and I had trouble getting lighter bullets to group well. On the other hand, the factory 175-gr. bullet at 2,400 fps that everyone complains about has been taking huge animals for decades. It shot near MOA in my rifle, recoil was ultra mild and the whole combination was pretty darned elegant. Sounds like you made a wise move.

Okie John

I am re-reading the "Elmer Keith" biography and he did not like the 7x57 for anything larger than Deer. He saw too many Elk get away and have to be hunted down when hit with the 7x57. derf

derf,

He also said the .270 was a fine Coyote gun and that the '06 needed 220 gr bullets to work at all. I like Elmer's stuff but I think he went a little far to promote the "war" between him and Jack O'Connor to sell magazines. Speaking of Jack O'Connor I believe his wif used a 7x57 on most of her hunts.

Congrats Waldog on the 7mm Mauser. I keep telling my slef I should buy a No. 1 RSI in 7x57, but other things get in the way. Sean

Not to mention the fact that W.D.M. "Karamojo" Bell killed over 800 of his record bag of elephant with the 7X57 in its' British garb of .276 Rigby Mauser, using British Kynoch military ball ammo with 173-grain FMJ bullets at 2300 FPS. Most were one-shot kills, using the brain shot. Bell said this particular bullet was the only one he had ever heard whistling away through the air after it had gone through an elephant's head! Elmer Keith to the contrary notwithstanding!!

WalDog:

That is a great story. All rifles will kill deer with proper shot placement, and the hunter realizing any limitations of the bullet.

However, it is the nostalgia that goes with stories like yours make hunting worth while to me. I could care less if I come home empty handed or not. It is the " circle of life" ( for lack of any other thing popping into my head).

In my mind I often think about what my grandfather would be saying if we were together at one given moment.... etc. Hunting is a family tradition more than anything. It is interacting with the past generations, even if just in your mind and your heart, since those people may have passed on.

I just hope I can pass it on down to my son. He is only Nine, but has no interest in hunting or shooting at all.

I have been buying a lot of rifles in the last two years at the gun shops that have been sold as the old gentleman has passed on and no one in the family to pass it on to. I hope I am giving them a good home, and that their former owners can be happy about that.

All Have been sporterized, in the classic traditions and I have paid little for them, in ratio to the reverence I feel for them. All have been as accurate as hell, attesting to the work the owners did on them.. At a time when we did not have such an anti gun society.

Many I am sure were Veterans of WW 2 and Korea.
I would not sell anyone of these rifles.

Examples are :
1917 Enfield, 30/06 original 1918 barrel on it.
Winchester made. Accuracy puts varmint rifles to shame.
1923 Brno Mauser: Sporterized, Lyman peep site, trigger job that is unbelievable. One hole shooter at 50yds, which is impressive since I can not see crap with my eyesight and a peep site
1898 Krag: Sporterized, Lyman Peep Site. 24 inch barrel, Redfield Front Site. Shoots 3 inch groups at 200 yds, with the original 1898 barrel.
6.5 x 55 Mauser; sniper rifle issued to Swedish Units. With a 160 grain Round Nose, 3 shot one hole group at 50 yds with it. Site needs work or replaced for me to see farther.
8 mmm Czech Mauser: Not as accurate as the others, but this think is built like a 1949 Buick compared to most rifles nowadays.

All of these rifles have actions that are so smooth it is unbelievable. The other good thing, is that I do not have more than $125.00 invested in anyone of these rifles, except the Krag ( which I paid $200.00 for, but I knew that one was worth it based on its shape).

All of these rifles, come with something that you can't buy off the shelf at any gun store at any price; experience and a history. They are accurate by anyone's standards, and the history of a 75 to 100 yr old rifle is priceless to me.

They have done it, and will keep on doing it. I for one can't put a price tag on that, to me it is priceless, and is available just because most people don't care for something because it is "old". I feel fortunate enought to be able to Own each one of these rifles.

I can only hope someone ends up with my rifles that appreciates them as much as I do when I am gone.

Mac,

Yeah and? Your response sounds like what I said about promoting the war. Sean

Greetings! I must say that I had the great good fortune to meet Elmer Keith at the NRA Convention when it was held hee in Atlanta - not sure of the year. I think he is the only man I have asked for an autograph, and he signed a copy of his article in a magazine for me. Still have it filed away somewhere. I listened to mim talk and argue with a rather large group and he was truly an individual. He impressed me with couple of things I really liked, not the least of which was carried over in the title of one of his books: "Hell, I was There!" Elmer seemingly spoke only of that which he knew and mostly he knew through experience. He made a couple of statements I will always remember: "A chronograph never killed nothing!' and "The '06 is a damn poor caliber!" If it was a handgun, it was a 44 or larger ot it was no good, if a rifle, it had to be a forty or more or no good. This old boy minced no words. I don't recall that he ever mentioned O'Connor by name but he made it very plain he had no use for pip squeak rifles or calibers that "blowed things up!" Remember his old saying about "shooting something to eat and then eat right up to the hole?"
I believe he lived his life to suit only himself and I think he truly believed in himself. As to being a self-taught man with very little formal education. Copies of some of his original writings are include in the book "Forty Years With the 45/70" and this fact is vey much evident.
While I realize we can't live in the past I sure do miss Ol' Elmer, Peter Hathaway Capstick, Robert Ruark, Russell Annabel, Finn Aagard and others. Seems like most of the ones today don't know as much as these guys did.
"Shoot straight, shoot safe and shoot a lot!"
'Trapper'

Seems Elmer changed his mind at one time. In his 1936 book, BIG GAME RIFLES, he was fairly kind to the 30-06. However, in his fairly rare 1946 KEITH'S RIFLES FOR LARGE GAME, the 30-06 became the most useless cartidge ever developed. I have both books and the cahnge in attitude was astounding in it's vehemence.
I will note a couple of points that over the years reading Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor. jack usually went on guided big game hunts and shot most of his game in fairly open country. Elmer, on the other hand, did most of his hunting and guiding in the black timber of Idaho, canada and Alaska where shots had to quick and on target the first time, usually ath the south end of a north bound animal. jack could get away with picking and choosing his shots, where Elmer could not most of the time. That would dictate a heavier big bore rifle in Elmer's case. Guess neither one was wrong. Just different hunting styles.
Paul B.

You know why there was a 50 + year war of words between Jack and Elmer? Jack was very well educated and Elmer could barely read. But people bought there writings just to see what they were going to say next. They both were right and wrong at the same time. One liked cigars and was a freemason the other liked the 270. And they both loved to hunt and the Model 70 and they are both gone. They were a real pair.

didn't know o'conner but knew elmer keith. a hell of a man. have several notes, signed by him in my gun room also a letter he signed and sent me to paste in his book "HELL I WAS THERE". all of the above posts are true of both men to the best of my knowledge, but i liked elmer the best. Elmer in my opinion told the truth, based on first hand experience.

Two canoes. There was an article in, I believe, an old Guns & Ammo by a guy named Tinker. Ben Tinker, IIRC. He wrote abot various thungs in this article, about being a game warden for the Mexican government, among other things. One of the things mentioned was he arrested a "well known Arizona gun writer" for poaching two does out of season. he was amazed to find tah those two does became "magnificnet bucks" when the famous gun writer did an article about the hunt. I wonder??? Just who could that have been? I forget the exact title of the article, but it's something like, "Of Tinkers, Turkeys and Rams."
I have several thousand gun rags from the very late 1950s to the present and one day, I just might put them in some semblance of order and do an index of what's in them. Then angain, looking at that pile of books, maybe not.
Paul B.

Elmer's books are good reads largely because of his opinionated, no nonsense, straight-to-the-point style, based on lots of experience, sorta like Atkinson. I think Elmer rather tongue-in-cheek and with a dash of mischief referred to the new 7mmRemMag as "an excellent pest rifle."
Oh yeah, I have an FN semicustom sporter in 7x57 too, great rifle.

If you go to the following site (General Discussions):

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fgrahamholsterforumfrm2

and search for O'Connor or Keith you will find several stories by a guy who claims to have known both men. It is interesting reading and the basic gist is the magazines/shooting public took the fighting between Elmer & Jack way more seriously than the 2 men personally did.

I enjoy both mens' writing a ton, but Elmer's writing just had too much personal bias for my taste, or maybe he just sided on big bores to the extreme too much and some of his examples lacked reality / common sense. For example, he would say how poorly the .270/06 perform on big game, yet have no problem "walking" bullets onto a caribou at 400 yards out of a .41 Magnum revolver. Or the story on how 5 guys took .270s Elk hunting and each wounded several bulls...at Elmer's suggestion, they went back with .375 H&H magnums and all got their Elk. I just read one the other day on how much tougher African game is than American game because he shot two Oryx through the lungs behind the shoulder with 300 grain bullets out of his .333 OKH, but they got away (he trailed one 7 miles) never to be found (so how did he know he hit them through the lungs??).

Anyhow, based on these type of examples that Elmer would use to prove his points, it was just tough for me to take him as seriously as I did O'Connor. There's no doubt Elmer was a great hunter, great shot, and great influence on the sport as we know it today, but to me, his personal predjudices went to an extreme in his writing to the point it made some of it hard to believe.

-Lou

If you read Roy Weatherby's autobiography, he makes it plain that he didn't like or respect O'Connor a bit. But he had to smile and put up with him, because O'Connor's fans bought lots of rifles.

I always found it hard to believe a lot of what Keith wrote and can't take his opinions seriously as a result. Maybe he was making a joke but I lost my confidence in him after listening to his disparaging comments on calibers I know work well.

I'll trust O'Connor's wisdom anytime over Roy Weatherby's.

I shoot the 7x57 and have for many years, it will do anything the 30-06 or 270 will do..I can shoot a 175 gr. bullet at 2650 or better in my long throated 06 length action and a healthy dose of H414...or I can do the exact same thing with a 175 gr. corelokt at 2400, that 250 FPS isn't as crucial as some seem to think...I can also tag 3000 FPS with the 130 gr. Speer, one of the finest deer bullets I have ever shot in any .284 non magnum caliber..

Anyone who degrades the 7x57 is full of it..Keith degraded the 300 H&H as a deer rifle only...I just have a hard time accepting some to the stuff Keith claimed, albiet I do believe him to be a good marksman and I think he just like to stir the troops...

Hello all, a Newbie here.

I have followed this thread with interest, both because I am a fan of the 7x57 and because of Mr. Keith. I am not recoil sensitive but the 7x57 is easy to shoot accurately because it is mild and yet if we are honest has adequate power for most things we hunt within the range most of us should be taking shots.
I am not as old as some of you but have read voraciously since childhood (in the 50s & 60s) and have a good memory. I believe it is unfair to judge Elmer outside the context of his time. Yes he lived into the 1980s but the experiences which shaped his thinking were from earlier times. He, like my own grandfather lived from horse and buggy times to see men on the moon, and as great changes in shooting matters as well. I believe Elmer's opinions of some cartridges were valid in an earlier time simply due to the reliability of bullets available at the time. Elmer knew that a large caliber bullet in the right place killed and that a small caliber bullet which failed would not. For him, end of discussion. In earlier years, Elmer was a guide and outfitter and many of the opinions he expressed about rifles/calibers based on the things he witnessed were not so different from those I have read by other outfitter/guides over the years.
More than one of the old writers and trusted authorities (Bill Jordan comes to mind) who knew Keith well personally stated that if Elmer said it you could believe it. As to the 7x57, one of Keith's friends (Hopkins, O'Neal ?) loved the cartridge but didn't reload so Keith developed loads and loaded many hundred rounds of ammo for him in the caliber.

Great thread!
I have read both men, and I take both with a grain of salt. It's like the Ford/Chevy debate. Elmer had to know that, although he preferred big bores, that a lot of game was being killed with 30/06, 270 etc. rifles without problems. Jack also had to know that other big bore rifles were legitimate also (and I'm a big fan of the .270). I always took the rivalry for what it seemed, and it did sell mags and was fun.
I relate to the part about hunting with your fathers and grandfathers. I was lucky enough to hunt with my dad until I was 14 and he passed. Never got to know one of my granddads, died before I was born, the other died when I was 6. I really wish we could have gone deer hunting just once, all together. I have a farm where my stepson and I hunt every year, we have a great time and never take it for granted. It's the best times of my life. I just wish some of the liberals could have such respect and memories of times gone by and things undone, so as to preserve our rights and future. But, just like the Ford/Chevy debate, we all know the truth, Chevy's are better, but some just won't admit it!

[ 10-11-2003, 18:53: Message edited by: Bobby ]