In your opinion and/or experience, is the 8x57 capacity enough to drive a 220gr bullet fast enough, out of a 20" barrel?

An alternative may be the 200gr TSX, but I have a bunch of 220gr 8mm bullets looking for a job.

KB

fast enough for what ? My guess is they should do fine for just about anything you will want to hunt with the 8x57

JMHO but if the rifle is throated deep enough to take advantage of all the possible powder room the 8mm stands more chance against brown bear than the .223 does against mule deer. roger

I didn't think about the possibility of seating the bullets out with the base no deeper than the neck.

Fast enough for what? Fast enough to open up a little. I'm presuming these are tough bullets, designed for the 8mm Rem Mag, which is good so long as they don't pencil through. I'm expecting at least 2300 fps MV. Also I'm thinking short range deer hunting, bush whacking with a carbine - Sitka deer in Brown bear habitat.

The bullets I'm talking about are the Hornady and Remington 220gr. I also have some Woodleigh and Swifts, but I know they are in a different league.

IF I choose to use the rifle for other purpose, then I might as well use a bullet suited specifically for deer and hogs, like the Rem 185gr.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
In your opinion and/or experience, is the 8x57 capacity enough to drive a 220gr bullet fast enough, out of a 20" barrel?

An alternative may be the 200gr TSX, but I have a bunch of 220gr 8mm bullets looking for a job.

KB

You need to study the German history and development of the 8x57 Mauser and then you wouldn't be asking that question.

One thing folks forget when comparing the 30-06 with the 8x57 and thinking the 06 will throw the heavier bullets better because of more capacity is that the 8mm bore creates more volume faster then the 30 caliber and you can get more out of that 8x57 case because of that. Also if you shot any heavy bulleted German WWII two machine gun ammo it would be an eye opener for you. So to answer your question..YES.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
You need to study the German history and development of the 8x57 Mauser and then you wouldn't be asking that question.

Also if you shot any heavy bulleted German WWII two machine gun ammo it would be an eye opener for you. So to answer your question..YES.

Thanks.

From what I've read of German history in development of anything to do with munitions, is that the componants were well engineered to match.

Therefore, since the 8mm Rem Mag and the 220gr bullets for it were not part of the German design specs, so whatever is relevant in the study of German history is not necessarily relevant to my question.

Besides, WWII machine gun ammo wasn't designed with brown bear in mind.

I seldom make inferences from data re war tools, relating to hunting situations, except to use such data to discredit the use of the 223 on deer.

KB

Another yes. The bullets made for the 8 Mag were not particularly tough. In the 8 x 57 you should have adequate expansion with superb penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
In your opinion and/or experience, is the 8x57 capacity enough to drive a 220gr bullet fast enough, out of a 20" barrel?

An alternative may be the 200gr TSX, but I have a bunch of 220gr 8mm bullets looking for a job.

KB

You need to study the German history and development of the 8x57 Mauser and then you wouldn't be asking that question.

One thing folks forget when comparing the 30-06 with the 8x57 and thinking the 06 will throw the heavier bullets better because of more capacity is that the 8mm bore creates more volume faster then the 30 caliber and you can get more out of that 8x57 case because of that. Also if you shot any heavy bulleted German WWII two machine gun ammo it would be an eye opener for you. So to answer your question..YES.

That's a silly example or statement. WWII MG ammo did not fire expanding bullets. The revised/expanded question was will the velocity be sufficient to promote expansion? The answer of course is, it depends on the bullet and what it hits.

My answer is that there are heavy (200+ gn) 8mm bullets that are designed to expand at 8x57 velocities and then there are heavy 8mm bullets designed to expand at 8mm Rem mag velocities.

I would suggest test firing them into a suitable test medium to know for sure.

My own thougts are that a .323" projectile is large enough to start with that it doesn't require a ton of expansion to get the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
In your opinion and/or experience, is the 8x57 capacity enough to drive a 220gr bullet fast enough, out of a 20" barrel?

An alternative may be the 200gr TSX, but I have a bunch of 220gr 8mm bullets looking for a job.

KB

You need to study the German history and development of the 8x57 Mauser and then you wouldn't be asking that question.

One thing folks forget when comparing the 30-06 with the 8x57 and thinking the 06 will throw the heavier bullets better because of more capacity is that the 8mm bore creates more volume faster then the 30 caliber and you can get more out of that 8x57 case because of that. Also if you shot any heavy bulleted German WWII two machine gun ammo it would be an eye opener for you. So to answer your question..YES.

That's a silly example or statement. WWII MG ammo did not fire expanding bullets. The revised/expanded question was will the velocity be sufficient to promote expansion? The answer of course is, it depends on the bullet and what it hits.

My answer is that there are heavy (200+ gn) 8mm bullets that are designed to expand at 8x57 velocities and then there are heavy 8mm bullets designed to expand at 8mm Rem mag velocities.

I would suggest test firing them into a suitable test medium to know for sure.

My own thougts are that a .323" projectile is large enough to start with that it doesn't require a ton of expansion to get the job done.

THen you misread what I said. I was showing that it could throw those heavy bullets at very good velocities. Wasn't discussing expansion. Most people could figure out you can do the same thing with expanding bullets, but you.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
I would suggest test firing them into a suitable test medium to know for sure.

My own thougts are that a .323" projectile is large enough to start with that it doesn't require a ton of expansion to get the job done.

That's kinda my bottom line too. I figured maybe my test medium would be a nice size buck, or maybe a hog. After all, the lack of a ton of expansion is sorta desirable in either case. Deep penetration on brown bear; exit on deer and hogs; both ok.

Mike, do ya think reaming the chamber out to 8x60S, with the 20" barrel would make much difference?

KB

What happen to your custom 8mm on, what was it, a necked down Norma mag case of some form?

To para-phrase Ray, at some point during flight, the 8mm RM becomes a 8x57.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
What happen to your custom 8mm on, what was it, a necked down Norma mag case of some form?

It got seriously side-tracked, for reasons not appropriate to discuss in this thread. I basically had to start over. When it's in service, I have little doubt about the usefullness of 220gr bullets in it. I especially want to try it with some 220gr Sierras. However, it's not as handy as this carbine I'm talking about here.

I doubt I would bother to finish it, if I hadn't already gathered all the parts, and thus sorta committed to the project. The fiasco of my first attempt at completion sorta zapped my ambition about it, and I've moved on to other things.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
To para-phrase Ray, at some point during flight, the 8mm RM becomes a 8x57.

There is a threshold where expansion stops or at least becomes questionable. The 8mm Rem extends that distance over the 8x57 by 200 yds.

That said, the Rem 185 component bullet is supposed to be too tough to be used in the 8x57. However, I have uesed it with great success in my 8x57, 8x60, and 8x68.

I've used the 220 rn woodleigh in both my 8mm-06 and my 8x68S.
The expansion at short range is superb with the 8mm-06, but a bit too much with the 8x68S..
The PP bullet is a bit tougher, thoug..

M

Kabluewy -

I may be wrong here, but IIRC, in the early 20th century days of the 8x57 sporting round, it was fairly commonly available with a 226 grain expanding bullet from European manufacturers. So apparently they thought it had adequate velocity to be useful with them. Also, IIRC, there was a 230-odd (230+) grain bullet also available from some.

Edited to add:

I just went and looked up a little info on it. The original military loading for the Model 1888 "Commision rifle" 8x57 which we now call the 8x57 Mauser was a round-nosed 226 gr. FMJ bullet, fired through a twist which was a little later standardized at 1 turn in 9.45".

The sporting version of the ammo was provided with 227 gr SN ammo. In order to be sold legally in Germany, the rifle itself has to be proofed at a pressure of 68,892.5 psi (piezo measurement, not c.u.p.).

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Kabluewy -

I may be wrong here, but IIRC, in the early 20th century days of the 8x57 sporting round, it was fairly commonly available with a 226 grain expanding bullet from European manufacturers. So apparently rhey thought it had adequate velocity to be useful with them. Also, IIRC, there was a 230-odd (230+) grain bullet also available from some.

Edited to add:

I just went and looked up a little info on it. The original military loading for the Model 1888 "Commision rifle" 8x57 which we now call the 8x57 Mauser was a round-nosed 226 gr. FMJ bullet, fired through a twist which was a little later standardized at 1 turn in 9.45".

The sporting version of the ammo was provided with 227 gr SN ammo. In order to be sold legally in Germany, the rifle itself has to be proofed at a pressure of 68,892.5 psi (piezo measurement, not c.u.p.).

AC, That's what I was talking about going back to the history. There are three cartridges out there that have a long extensive history and work put into them, the 8x57, the 303 British, and the 7.63x54R Russian.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
What happen to your custom 8mm on, what was it, a necked down Norma mag case of some form?

It got seriously side-tracked, for reasons not appropriate to discuss in this thread. I basically had to start over. When it's in service, I have little doubt about the usefullness of 220gr bullets in it. I especially want to try it with some 220gr Sierras. However, it's not as handy as this carbine I'm talking about here.

I doubt I would bother to finish it, if I hadn't already gathered all the parts, and thus sorta committed to the project. The fiasco of my first attempt at completion sorta zapped my ambition about it, and I've moved on to other things.

KB

You don't have to talk about what happened to your other 8mm, I was just wondering where it went.

Yes, I understood what you meant Smokin'....

That's why I included the twist info in my post. Obviously, a twist that quick for a calibre where a 220+ bullet will be shorter than an equal weight and shape of .30 bullet, is intended for heavy bullets as well as lighter ones.

A 1-10" twist will very well stabilize 220 grain '06 bullets, so a 9.45" twist was apparently intended to stabilize bullets even heavier. The Germans knew and still know the science of bullets in flight at least as well as we do.

And all three of the ones you mention (8x57, .303 British, and 7.62x54) are at least 10 years older than our .30-06. So, also, is the 7.5x55 Swiss, though it too has been modernized a couple of times.

Sometimes the heavy for caliber conversations get my interest. The classic is the 6.5x55. Also the 220gr in the 06 is a standard that most U.S. shooters can identify with.

I'm relatively sure that the 220gr Woodleigh RN is made with the 8x57 in mind, and I figure it will perform almost ideal for that weight of bullet at that speed. It's probably the standard to measure the other 220 8mm bullets.

I have one of those pre-turned, chambered 8x57, threaded LW CM barrels for a Mauser '98, and it has the 9.45" twist rate. If I decide to have it installed on an action, I was thinking of having the chamber reamed out to 8x60S, just for the heck of it, and maybe messing with some Woodleigh 250grs.

The 8mm is a fairly interesting caliber, in all its various cartridges. At the time I decided to make a wildcat on a magnum case, there was a lot of discussion of the merits of the 8x68S, so the wildcat about duplicats ballistics of the 8x68S, with an easier to find action and brass.

I may get to actually shoot it someday.

KB

the biggest thing you have to worry about is if the bullet will open up on what you are using it on, at 8mm Mauser speeds...

its not the cartridge, its the bullet.. most 220 grain bullets still made are meant for 8mm Rem Mag velocities...

too bad Speer quit making the old 225 grain SMP in 8mm...

at 8mm Mauser speeds, the 220 grain Sierra is going to act more like an FMJ....

I have a box of the Speer 225gr, round nose, as I recall.

Also, I wasn't planning on using the Sierra 220 gr in the 8x57.

About three years ago, I bought a bunch of Remington 220 gr. Coreloct. I don't know how many there are, but at least 500 in that box, maybe close to 1000. They are perfectly good bullets, not blemished, and just like new. I got a deal, and I want to shoot them. I tried a few for accuracy, and they shot fine in that rifle when the barrel was 23". It's now 20" long. I never did test for velocity, so I have to estimate until I get to it again next spring.

KB

quote:

JMHO but if the rifle is throated deep enough to take advantage of all the possible powder room the 8mm stands more chance against brown bear than the .223 does against mule deer. roger

Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..

I spit my drink out when I read that.

My old Barnes manual shows their 220 gr XFB (discontinued) hitting 2400 fps in front of 45 gr. of RL15. Not bad for an 8x57.

Hodgdon web data shows over 2400fps possible with 45.2gr of H4895. But my notes show that I stopped at about one gr less than that. Also with a 20" barrel, I'm being conservative in estimating 2300fps probable. I'll be happy with that.

KB

My old Speer book shows there 225 grain at 2379fps with 53 grains of N205

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I have a box of the Speer 225gr, round nose, as I recall.

Also, I wasn't planning on using the Sierra 220 gr in the 8x57.

About three years ago, I bought a bunch of Remington 220 gr. Coreloct. I don't know how many there are, but at least 500 in that box, maybe close to 1000. They are perfectly good bullets, not blemished, and just like new. I got a deal, and I want to shoot them. I tried a few for accuracy, and they shot fine in that rifle when the barrel was 23". It's now 20" long. I never did test for velocity, so I have to estimate until I get to it again next spring.

KB

well I am envious of that stash...I have some 8mm Mausers here I'd love to play with those bullet out of.. I'd love the old Speer 225 grain SMPs...

I shoot 220s out of a 18 inch 06 scout rifle at 2300 fps. They work well on hogs of all sizes and a couple of bears.

They also did the number on a couple of yotes and 2 porkupines.

I would think that 220 in 8mm would work just as well.

Don't know how many of you shoot cast, but there are some really good heavy cast bullets for the 8mm. One of them is the 215 grain 323471. I've shot it up to 2400 fps with very good result and you can alter the alloy to suit your needs for it. I know the cast bullets in that caliber would perform right along side the jacketed bullets and for a lot lest cheaper. The BC on that bullet I mentioned is pretty high for a cast bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

Fast enough for what? Fast enough to open up a little. I'm presuming these are tough bullets, designed for the 8mm Rem Mag, which is good so long as they don't pencil through. KB

That is a question best answered by the bullet manufacturers. My guess is that you are right about them being made for the 8mm Mag.

If I ever screw my shiny M-98 bbl onto another action then I would go for some Hornady 196 grainers. They were made for the 8X57 and would meet its true potential.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
If I ever screw my shiny M-98 bbl onto another action then I would go for some Hornady 196 grainers. They were made for the 8X57 and would meet its true potential.

I did shoot up most of a box Hornady 195gr bullets, messing with different loads, and those bullets proved accurate in all the rifles tested. I agree that they may well be ideal.

It's a difficult call, and like everything else it depends on what I want do do with the particular rifle on that particular day. If I just want to whack a deer or hog, which is something the 8x57 is most excellent at, Darn near all the 8mm bullets in the 150gr to 200gr range will be an excellent choice. I bought some Sierra 175gr bullets, and so far I haven't found a rifle or reasonable load that doesn't shoot them accurately. To a limited degree I can say the same about the Remington 185gr CL, but I havent thoroughly tested them at the range yet.

There are so many good choices. My goal is to use the rifle with the hope of it becomming a go-to favorite, including Sitka deer. If it was only deer - no problem, but I also like to have some level of comfort that the rifle/cartridge/bullet choice will give me some hope of being the winner in a contest for survival with a brown bear. If I wanted to lean towards certainty in that arena, I would just use my 458, but I want to use the 8x57 as well. So thus my delimma.

I'm thinking another good choice may be the 200gr Barnes TSX. I have two boxes, which ought to last several years for actual hunting. Sure they are way overkill for deer or hogs, but as backup bullets, I think I can count on them delivering the max that can be from a 8x57.

Most trouble with brown bears can be avoided, by just paying attention, but I don't want my next of kin to read the report of the incident, and have it say something about finding my remains, and nearby my rifle with a fired case still in the chamber.

I think it's kinda interesting to be thinking of two divergent uses for the cartridge and bullet. I think that speaks well of the usefulness of the cartridge. Deer to brown bear, perhaps in the same outing. Thus it is not as important that the bullet preform perfectly on the deer, (only adequately) as it is that it does its best in the worst case scenerio.

KB

Based on all the information I think I would be looking at the Nosler 200 gr Accubond or the Woodleigh 196 gr.

Aaron

What you need is two friends with cannons for back up and you with the 8 mm. Since you're going with the short barrel do a fast handling scout scope front mount.
roger

Generally it is a common safety rule to not hunt alone up here. There is a standing joke that one should pick a hunting buddy that is a slow runner.

Regarding scopes, I like the red dot scopes better than the scout scopes. I've never been able to adjust to the ultra long eye relief. In an emergency it would be just point and shoot, and a scout scope would get in my way.

I have a 1x4 Leupold for close places. I've been looking at those new Leupold VX-R fire dot scopes.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Generally it is a common safety rule to not hunt alone up here. There is a standing joke that one should pick a hunting buddy that is a slow runner.

Regarding scopes, I like the red dot scopes better than the scout scopes. I've never been able to adjust to the ultra long eye relief. In an emergency it would be just point and shoot, and a scout scope would get in my way.

I have a 1x4 Leupold for close places. I've been looking at those new Leupold VX-R fire dot scopes.

when my eyes wouldn't let me really use open sights any more the scope forward was a real God send. I can almost handle them like a shot gun. ( I hear the rumble) roger

why people ything that velocity is first factor in clean killing of animals,sorry for my english and ignorance but velocity doesnt kill,MOMENTUM IS A FACTOR,i have more confidence of taking animals with medium fast cartidges than magnums,dont tell u will kill big bear any better with 300 win mag than i will with 9.3,actually is a man behind a gun whonever caliber he shoots

Teutonic, the more a bullet expands, the larger the wound channel, the bigger the diameter of the hole.

If the velocity is too low, the bullet will not expand properly.

KB just wants to make sure he can generate enough velocity to get proper expansion.

quote:

Originally posted by TEUTONIC:
why people ything that velocity is first factor in clean killing of animals,sorry for my english and ignorance but velocity doesnt kill,MOMENTUM IS A FACTOR,i have more confidence of taking animals with medium fast cartidges than magnums,dont tell u will kill big bear any better with 300 win mag than i will with 9.3,actually is a man behind a gun whonever caliber he shoots

Lot of truth to what you say, but I feel the correct use of a magnum is to be able to shoot the further distances that may be needed in taking certain game animal that you cannot get a closer shot at. The magnum's higher velocity lets the bullet travel further with less drop then say another non magnum lesser powder capacity same caliber cartridge. A good example would be comparing a 308 Win to the 300 Win Mag. Of course if the magnum is shot at the game at extremely close distances it ruins a lot of meat. Another thing is the magnum also retains more energy at further distances then it's little brothers because of the higher velocity and choosing a higher BC bullet will give you still a little more. A magnum, to me, doesn't mean that you can kill the game animal "deader" nor does it mean it can kill larger game then the little brother simply because it's a magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Generally it is a common safety rule to not hunt alone up here. There is a standing joke that one should pick a hunting buddy that is a slow runner.

Regarding scopes, I like the red dot scopes better than the scout scopes. I've never been able to adjust to the ultra long eye relief. In an emergency it would be just point and shoot, and a scout scope would get in my way.

ME TOO!!

I know it has something to do with my innate "weirdness", but I detest scout scopes. For me they do not work, and I have tried half a dozen of them.

The thing I like best about red dot scopes is that most of them made today are parallax-free. That is, no matter what angle you view the dot from, if it is on the target, you can hit the target. With emergency shots from what may be a strained configuration of your human body, that can be might important. (Guess why our military uses red dot scopes on the ARs...?)