I feel like I might be wasting the AR board members time asking this question, but I'm having a hard time deliberating the topic.

I'm currently working up 9.3x62 loads for Brown Bear. Bullet of choice is the Nosler 286 Partition. Surprisingly Big Game and Reloader 15 have been good, but not as great as I'd been lead to believe; in my rifle.

My rifle prefers both Varget and H4895. The equations are velocity, accuracy and consitency (ES and SD).

I've got loads which give great accuracy (sub MOA) and some which give 1.25" to 2" groups. Some loads give high velocity (2450+ fps), some less than 2400 fps. Some loads have terrible consistency; I'm talking ES of 100+ fps. Some have great consistency (ES of 12-18 and 5-7 SD's for 6 shots).

I've got ideas of what load/s to pick. Just wanted to see if their some views I'd not thought of.

I may be picking nits since 300 yds is a long shot on Brownie I may not need sub MOA accuracy or 2500+ fps or low SD's, but hey, this the AR and that's what we do!

I am thinking this through as I type it, so it is likely going to be a little convoluted. Please bear (pun) with me.


First, I asume you want a load where you will not be adjusting your sights in the field at the time you need to take your shot.

That being so, the first thing I would do is determine which specific bullet I would choose to use on a bear, and look up its B.C. Then I would choose a velocity which I could easily attain in my barrel length, and calculate or look up some charges which should deliver that approximate velocity.

With the velocity and B.C. in hand, I could then calculate the "point blank range" at which to sight in. (By point blank range, I mean the range where, if I sight in for that distance, from the muzzle to the target the bullet flight will never be more than 3" high or 3"low compared to the line of sight.) For instance, with a hypothetical bullet in an un-named cartridge, Sighting in at 127 yards may mean the bullet is never more than 3" high, and will not be more than 3"low out to 154 yards, while if one sighted in at some shorter distance, it might still not be over 3" high, but would drop more than 3" low after 139 yards. (All numbers in this example are theoretical, and made up just to make clear what I am speaking of.)

Once I had all that in hand, I'd load ammo with the several combos of powder which would likely give approximately that velocity, and go shoot them at targets set at the chosen point-blank sight-in distance.

Then, I d let the paper targets tell me which powder charge is best at that distance with that bullet.

ES and SD don't matter to the bear. What does matter is being able to smack him or her with a well placed shot with the chosen bullet. The targets produced, at the distance the rifle is to be used within, are the best indicators of the best load.

So what I would end up with by that approach, is the best grouping load out to the maximum point-blank range available to me. I commend the approach to you for consideration.

To oversimplify, I would say that accuracy is paramount. I don't think your bear will be able to tell the difference between 2300 and 2500 fps.......

My approach might be a little different than AC. I ALWAYS feel more confident with a load that is more accurate. I would find the most accurate load and then do the Maximum Point Blank Range for that particular load. Even if it is 100fps slower than some others, I know I can make a better shot. If you need something bigger or faster, buy something bigger or faster.

When I work up a load I am looking for the most vel. that I can get w/ the best accuarcy. I will give up abit of vel. for abit more accuracy, but I'm not willing to let go of say 200fps to gain 1/4MOA. It's a balancing act for sure. As far as SD, I've had great accuracy w/ poor SD (30-40), so I would fine tune by switching out primers & see if I could get the SD down to the teens.

Accuracy every time......

"if" you are getting 2500fps with the 286grnrs. and sub moa's -what it is not to like? I get 2440fps avg and am zero'd 2" high @ 100yds. I look for consistency in shot placement @ 100yds. and am using a Lyman 57SME Target peep with a gold ringed aperture and a front NECG F/O

oh well-shoot straight!

I have read everyones post and ALL contained paramount advice " Balance " .

Power is in the weight of the projectile behind velocity . I wouldn't concern my self with a difference is 100-200 FPS if the Accuracy is there I'll take it every time !.

Check out a large bore pushing 400 - 750 grains at 2100-2300 FPS and some nearly 11 K lb. of energy !. OUCH !.

Talk to some one who has experience Hunting in that particular area and find what typical yardages shots are made . Then follow AC's sighting example .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

I agree with Whitworth.

I have taken a lot of game with my 9,3 double with the 286gr Nosler Partition including a kudu at a little over 300 yards.

My velocity was under 2250fps.

Go with the accurate load.

When talking about large game (not varmints) it seems that accuracy and repeatability some times get interwoven. Accuracy ,me thinks, is the first shot out of a cold fouled barrel being placed by the hunter within 3" of the intended point of impact at say up to 300 yds., to use your expressed limit. Now that could be 2MOA of repeatability for rifle hunter combo.

The "need" for accuracy and repeatability changes with respect to what type of shooting you're doing. No avid varmint hunter that I know would be happy with 2 MOA "repeatability".

Certainly 1/2 MOA of repeatability won't hurt when hunting big game unless you un-necessarily compromise other beneficial factors of the balancing act.

A simple equation then is --Cold shot placement + the right bullet-at- the totally adequate velocity = Bang- flop- BEAR ? roger

I don't even take my chronograph to the range anymore. Might as well sell it.
I used to spend hours trying to get rifles to shoot consistenly under moa.
The older I became the more I realized super accurate high velocity loads simply are not necessary for large game. If my rifles will shoot 1.5 moa for 3 shots day in and day out I am happy.
Most hunters should spend there free time practicing shooting from field positions and less time trying to work out perfect loads from the bench.
Sorry for getting on the soap box. But to answer your question go for the load that will give you consistent results.

Give me accuracy!

I load speer 270gn to 2320(ish)fps out of my 9,3 for general plains game hunting. It shoots sub MOA. I am consistently amaized at how flat this load shoots. Not that I really need it, but zeroesd 1" high at 100m, I need less than 1' hold over at 300m. ie I can still aim in the hair on an impala out to 300m and hit it.

At long range, small groups give one more confidence than flat trajectory. Use a range finder if needed, but a good 286grn bullet at 2400fps will be alot flatter shooting than my speers going slower!

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I don't even take my chronograph to the range anymore. Might as well sell it.
I used to spend hours trying to get rifles to shoot consistenly under moa.
The older I became the more I realized super accurate high velocity loads simply are not necessary for large game. If my rifles will shoot 1.5 moa for 3 shots day in and day out I am happy.
Most hunters should spend there free time practicing shooting from field positions and less time trying to work out perfect loads from the bench.
Sorry for getting on the soap box. But to answer your question go for the load that will give you consistent results.

Since you're not using that Chrony any more, why not send it to me?


As to the question, accuracy and moderate velocity should be the answer.
I have found though that most of my loads best accuracy is as I approach max velocity.

But I doubt you're going to be shooting your bear at long range. I think a load that groups 1-1/2" to 2" at 100 yards for 5 shots ought to be fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Give me accuracy!

I load speer 270gn to 2320(ish)fps out of my 9,3 for general plains game hunting. It shoots sub MOA. I am consistently amaized at how flat this load shoots. Not that I really need it, but zeroesd 1" high at 100m, I need less than 1' hold over at 300m. ie I can still aim in the hair on an impala out to 300m and hit it.

At long range, small groups give one more confidence than flat trajectory. Use a range finder if needed, but a good 286grn bullet at 2400fps will be alot flatter shooting than my speers going slower!

I shot a bull moose 2 years ago with a 400gr RN Hornady out of a .416RM that was a modest 2350fps MV. I center punched it twice at 250 yards and didn't have to compensate for the yardage at all.

accurate enough for the game at hand...

accuracy has a different cononation if we are talking brown bears at 50 to 100 yds, vs sage rats at 300 yds...

based on your dilema presented, I can suggest by experience with a similar round... you might want to consider testing H 380 in your rifle with that bullet...

based on experience in a 338/06... you can potentially have your cake and eat it to...

My CZ FS 201/2" gets 2355 with a 286 Nosler over 59gr of Varget and a 1" group. I plan on some more testing next month.

I guess I'm missing something. When speaking of big game hunting why is shot grouping significant? The first shot is the one that counts and if necessary a fallow up shot.

It is possible that there may be a meaningfull message in grouping if the shooter takes two(2) quick shots every 20 minutes or so for ten (10) shots.You than can check first shot grouping, second shot grouping Point of impact change between groups and per shot in each group.

Than no matter what that information is, ask yourself if the result is good enough to get the job done.JMHO! roger

I'll throw in my 2 pennies here too. My 9,3x62 load is RL-15 with 286 Partitions at 2425 fps. It holds groups of 1" or less at 100 yards. ES is 4.4 and SD is 2.5 from my CZ 550 American.

The loading has taken Warthog, Impala, Wildebeast, Kudu, Zebra, feral pigs, and whitetails. Terminal ballistics have been like the Hammer of Thor! It is simply amazing to see a big animal literally drop on its knees.

Balance is a good word. My criteria for a good load is very safe pressure margin, 1" at 100 yards minimum, and great terminal performance.

The load above meets that criteria ... and happens to be among the most consistent over the Chrono I've ever seen. That degree of consistency is not something necessary for game loads as long as the consistency at the target is there.

I set a performance criteria for a hunting cartridge. Some say a deer, elk or bear won't know the difference between 200 or so fps. However if I have a 9.3x62 I really don't want 9.3x57 performance, particularly if hunting "brownie".

Over practical hunting ranges the deer, elk, bear won't know the difference between a 1 1/4" load and a 3/4" load. If the 1 1'4" load gives me the performance I'm looking for I will use it instead of a 3/4" load that is 200+ fps slower. If I miss a deer, elk or bear with the 1 1/4" load the reason is not the accuracy of the load. If I was hunting "brownie" with a 9.3x62 I would want all the power (performance) I could safely get out of that cartridge. Quite frankly a 2 moa top end load would suit me fine if the ES was 50 fps or less.

Accuracy is not always the first priority. If you are hunting things that bite back then reliability is of utmost importance. The cartridge must feed and go bang every time without fail. Next would come proper bullet for the game. Then would come having a top end load that was afe. and last would be accuracy so long as it is not unreasonable. A 2-3 MOA top end load out of your 9.3x62 with iron sights is quite reasonable. A 1-2 moa top end load out of your rifle with a scope is also quite reasonable. If you should find a consistant top end load that delivers moa or sub moa accuracy so much the better but it is not necessary.

Larry Gibson

quote:

accurate enough for the game at hand...

accuracy has a different cononation if we are talking brown bears at 50 to 100 yds, vs sage rats at 300 yds...

quote:

If my rifles will shoot 1.5 moa for 3 shots day in and day out I am happy.

These are probably the two most sensible pieces of advice on the matter. Does it really matter if your "go to" load shoots a relatively "poor" 2" group at 100 yards if a 3" group at that range is more than adequate?

I do disagree with some of the other posts. A good group is important, even if it's a 2" group, as it shows that all is all right with the rifle, the bullet and the load in terms of consistency.

And it is only by knowing that you have that consistency that you can be certain that that all important first shot will be where you intended it to go.

I have shot cape buffalo with the 9.3x62 using both the 320 gr. Woodleigh at 2400 FPS and observed the 286 Gr. Nosler at 2520 FPS in my 26 inch barrel kill a couple of buffalo. It performed admirably about like a .338 or .375 I suppose...they ran a ways and stopped, got shot again or died after the short run..About like buffalo die...

As to accuracy I wouldn't get too concerned, a bear is a pretty darn big target, about 2.5 ft. of Lung and a pretty big heart..you don't need a varmint gun..I would say that any rifle should shoot 1.5 to 2 inches and that is good enough to stop a charge..I'm sort of an accuracy nut myself, but have actually never seen an instance wherein a 2 inch gun wouldn't have worked just fine.

First off, let me thank you very much for all your suggestions and insight.

I'd like to show you what I've been faced with.

286 gr Part, 59.5 gr Varget, Lapua case, WLR primer, 16 ES, 5 SD, 2454 fps average, 2.435 group.



286 gr Part, 56.5 gr H4895, Lapua case, Fed 210M primer, 120 ES (dont pay attention to what I wrote on the target, I was being over zealous), SD?, 2370 fps average, .835" and .90" 3-shot groups.


Comments?

Nothing wrong with those groups...

Although, with the top group, it would be helpful to know which hole belonged to which shot in the sequence.

Having never hunted brown or grizzly bear I went on another form to find out at what distance these animals are shot. From the information these bear hunters supplied it isn't too often they are shoot much over 200 yds. Some are, however. From their replies it would seem the majority are shoot under 100 yds.

The targets you show certainly indicate you and your rifle are capable to handle the distances of which these men speak . interesting thread. roger

For a measly 84fps, stick with the second load and forget about the irrelavent SD and ES and other BS. Just my opinion.

Shooting a .366 bullet at 2370 fps at under MOA? Answer is obvious to me. The other load gets you less than 100 fps more. In the end, you're not gaining a whole lot of fps and you're losing accuracy (2.5" vs 0.9").

At less than 100 yards, it doesn't matter which load you select but IMO 56.5 gr H4895 has an advantage.

I'd enquire as to what would happen if you increased the second loading by half a grain, working up in one quarter grain increments.

What I do note is that the top group is FIVE SHOTS and the bottom two three shot groups. To give a better opinion I would fire the same number of rounds for each test.

Have you any results for FIVE ROUNDS GROUP with the H4895 loading?

Here is a 5-shot H4895 group w/ WLR primer.



I've noticed something with the H4895. When shooting groups with any charge, the 3rd shot seems to blow the sub MOA grouping and hit "left". This is a factory wood stocked CZ550 American. Might I need to free float the barrel?

I'll take a 1.5MOA load that puts the first round on target froma cold bbl. everytime, over a 1/2MOA load that throws the first shot off. Then again, how far off could oyur first shot be in a 1/2" group?
My 404j shoots into 1MOA most days. Is it requ'd for a DG rifle that is likely to only be shot under 100yds, no, but it makes me feel good when I am asked to make a headshot @ 50yds.

quote:

I'll take a 1.5MOA load that puts the first round on target froma cold bbl. everytime, over a 1/2MOA load that throws the first shot off.

I'd agree. Go with the Varget load and "tweak" it. At least it is consistent.

I think you're dancing with demons that only exist in your mind. We read so much about these folks, with a curl to their lips, that say they won't keep a hunting rifle that won't shoot into .5", etc,etc that we start to buy into what they're selling. All I've got to say about that is their gun locker hinges must stay pretty hot.
As Seafire and Ray said, a brownie is a pretty big animal. I'd pick a good, dependable bullet that gives me 1.5-2' accuracy and then I'd lay on the velocity until I got the maximum velocity at which the rifle would FUNCTION FLAWLESSLY and then I'd call it happy and practice, practice, practice. You don't have to worry about the brown bear at 300 yards, you want your rifle handling skills to be pretty sharp with the bear at 10 feet however.

quote:

the bear at 10 feet however

Cartridge recommendation at that distance...

20mm cannon...

I have to agree with stillbeeman. I would add: Use the highest velocity that provides consistent groups with which YOU are confident. When you are in the field you have to have confidence that your rifle is going to shoot where YOU want it to.