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At the risk of upsetting some people, I need some information about MNs. 1) Would attaching a clamp-on bipod to the barrel affect the weapon's accuracy? From what I've learned from reading and asking questions at various forums I have learned that if something changes the bbl's harmonics it can affect accuracy. So I ask, would adding a clamp on bipod to the bbl of a MN adversely affect its accuracy. 2) If the answer to #1 is "yes", how difficult would it be to mount a weaver/picatinny rail to the forestock of a MN? 3) Is it practical to mount a rail to the receiver of a MN? I am aware that at the very least it would require a gunsmith to drill/tap mounting holes. I want to know if it is practical. Vapdog, it isn't for me. It is for the rifle my son already HAS. I am going to have to integrate the weapon into my defense plans for post TEOTWAWKI. ` A wise man’s heart directs him toward the right, but the foolish man’s heart directs him toward the left. (Ecclesiastes 10:2 New American Standard Bible) | ||
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Seems like a lot of work to make an old rifle a sniper rig. Plus, contrary to the movie "Enemy at the Gates", most MN shoot like crap. You might want to consider selling the MN and buying a modern bolt action in 308 (7.62 Nato). Ammo would be easy to find. If cost is an issue, you can buy a $300 Stevens which would be pre-drilled for a scope mount and a bipod can easily be attached to the front sling post. Just my opinion. | |||
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Hummm, interesting. "TEOTWAWKI refers to situations that would forever change society and threaten the survival" http://www.survival-homestead.com/teotwawki.html There are whole industries out there selling this stuff - capitalism at its best. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/TEOTWAWKI You might want to stock up on slingshots too, since rocks will always be available for ammo. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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scottfromdallas wrote
As I wrote in my original post, the information "isn't for me. It is for the rifle my son already HAS." Operational phrase being, "the rifle my son ALREADY HAS". When we spoke last, he told me that my daughter-in-law has ordered him a clamp-on bipod. I wold just like to know if that is likely to impact accuracy so that if it IS, I can order him one with a weaver/picatinny mount and a rail to put it on. Kabluewy, actually I am having him acquire some mine tailings but that is to use as fill in improvised anti-small arms armor. In WWII it was learned that two .5" sheets of plywood with 6" of rocks between them will stop a machine gun bullet. Stop a .50 cal, too. I am getting into hand loading so that I can stockpile brass, bullets, powder etc. so I don't HAVE to chunk rocks at the badguys - unless I use a couple of lbs of smokeless powder to propel the rocks in a poor-man's claymore. Also been thinking about using that two-part explosive stuff (you know? for exploding targets?) in place of powder. Whether or not you personally believe that a revolution is coming and with it the end of the world as we know it is of no concern to me. Literally everyone with whom I correspond and speak at the range believe it is coming. I first saw it coming in '05 and have been working towards a state of readiness ever since. I figure we have until approximately the big election next year. That's why I am targeting y readiness date for around July 4th next. ` A wise man’s heart directs him toward the right, but the foolish man’s heart directs him toward the left. (Ecclesiastes 10:2 New American Standard Bible) | |||
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Darn, it's good to know such things. I've been out of the loop up here in the sanctuary of Alaska. I was thinking somehow that Gov of yours would be straigtening things out nationally, and perhaps globaly, as he has in TX. Together with the former AK Gov, the dream team. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Generally anything can be done....it's simply a matter of time and money.......and how much of it is retained in final value. With a MN all of your investment is at risk in modification....do so at your own desires and wishes for skills developement..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Thank you for your answer, vapodog. I shall order him a rail and bipod shortly. I kinda wondered about the scope rail. That's why I asked. Also, it's not about "investment". It's about a tool to use to help defend our family's freehold after TEOTWAWKI. ` A wise man’s heart directs him toward the right, but the foolish man’s heart directs him toward the left. (Ecclesiastes 10:2 New American Standard Bible) | |||
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Mullins. I like the Mosin, and own several. For the survialist the Mosin is a cheap rifle that can be used to arm a few extra people. I would not spend big money on one for main battle rifle, there are many better alternatives. They are also good for the beginner gun smith. If you mess it up, you are not out much. For for a serious rifle, one you may stake your life on, you would be better served with any of the various modern .308's. You could start with a Howa/Tikka/Savage/Vanguard for not too much money, be miles ahead, and have better resale value, and a good hunting rifle all at the same time. I still think you should have a couple of Mosin's. They are cheap to shoot, great to practice with, and alot of fun. | |||
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Careful when predicting the end of the world.... You can only be right once. Not good betting odds.  I know a guy who successfully predicted 10 of the last 3 recessions. Ski+3 | |||
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I hate bipods. If I am going somewhere and am going to need a field rest, I am carrying a back pack that I can use as a shooting platform. No fiddling with legs only to realize the grass in front of you is too tall to use a bipod anyway. MN is a great rifle. I own about 14 with a lot of Finns. You should get your son to practice shooting off a back pack out to 400 yards and standing out to 200 with his present gun before making any "improvements." He should shoot about two tins worth practicing. I don't think teowki or whatever it is would be much like groundhog hunting. | |||
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Antelope Sniper, I might yet get an MN just for fun. And it should be usable as a hunting rifle as well. You suggested,
And I have done so. I have a (to me at least although even some who own them disagree) beautiful FNAR. Call her "Ma Bell" 'cause I intend to use her to "reach out and touch" those who would threaten my family. Since the expected velocity of the MilSurp NATO ammo at 500 yards should still be above the 50% penetration threshold (meaning 50% of projectiles can be expected to penetrate) for the U.S. Army's current generation of body armor I should easily be able to make kill shots at 400-500 yards. If I need even higher velocity, there is always the option of using a $0.10 sabot to fling a .223 projectile out the muzzle closer to 5K ft/sec. 390ish, FYI TEOTWAWKI is an acronym for the end of the world as we know it. I expect it within 4 years at most. I would also love to be proven wrong in this instance. Problem is, if I am deluded about the coming cataclysm, then millions of people share my delusion. It's better to be prepared for it and it NOT come than vice versa. I'd really love to see my great-grandchild (granddaughter-in-law is carrying him/her right now) graduate from high school. ` A wise man’s heart directs him toward the right, but the foolish man’s heart directs him toward the left. (Ecclesiastes 10:2 New American Standard Bible) | |||
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It's going to happen 12-21-2012.....ask any Mayan! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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“Due to the lack of experienced end of the world trumpeters, the finale has been postponed indefinitely”. kabluewy Which gives us time to ponder the following: “Is the system going to flatten you out and deny you your humanity, or are you going to be able to make use of the system to the attainment of human purposes? One way or another, we all have to find what best fosters the flowering of our humanity in this contemporary life, and dedicate ourselves to that.” Joseph Campbell “Today, more than ever before, life must be characterized by a sense of Universal responsibility, not only nation to nation and human to human, but also human to other forms of life. Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive.” Dalai Lama It's really a choice, isn't it? Here's a quote from history - a man who made some choices: "Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity, quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace." Benito Mussolini Here's what his buddy had to say: “Struggle is the father of all things. It is not by the principles of humanity that man lives or is able to preserve himself above the animal world, but solely by means of the most brutal struggle.” Adolf Hitler KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Mullins: I'm not worried about the end of the world, and I certainly don't believe we will see it in the next 4 years. I'm old enough to remember the dark days of Jimmy Carter. He gave us Ronald Regan, and the longest peace time expansion in the history of this country, and that was WITHOUT the Tea Party. In 14 short months, we will throw Jimmy Carter the second out of the White House. Rick Perry will lead this Nation for the next 8 years, and we will acheive annual growth rates in the 6-7% range. It will be a good time to sell your gold, and buy stock in great American companies. I'm not against being prepared. A high state of Civilain rediness keeps bad guys, both foriegn and domestic, from getting any silly ideas. In any event, the FNAR is a fine multi-purpose rifle. I"m one of those guys that does think they look a bit ugly, but I'm sure you don't notice the looks when you are pulling the trigger, and measuring your targets. | |||
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 you might have trouble finding one.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Get a Finnish Model 39 and you will have a very accurate rife. The Finns required them to shoot 1.3" @100 yds before they were accepted. I have on that shoots MOA with good ammo and a 4X scope. There are several folks making good scope mounts for them noe. Even a scout mount. Go to the SnpersHide or MN forums or Google the mounts. The world will eventully end and sometone will be proven correct. The difference lies in the timing. Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Overdoing. | |||
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Rock Solid Industries make a good mount. They also sell a 'bent bolt handle" bolt body too Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Overdoing. | |||
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I'm not sure why you want a Bi-pod? Can't your boy shoot prone? Not sure where the idea the 91/30 is inaccurate either. I've owned more pristine K98k's that shot like crap then any 91/30's that shot like crap. My oldest son and I bust clays at 75 to 120 yards all day w/ any of our 91/30's. At 200 yards, about a 50% hit on that 4" target off hand. Still a kill on Whitetail or black bear. My 1942 PU 91/30 shoots a little over 4" at 400 yards, off hand. I have a couple of bi-pods on rifles, none on Military rifles. I have 4 Pre 1970 design Military snipers, Not one was ever issued w/ a bi-pod. 3 are bases on pre 1900 models. 1891, 1896, 1898. All have a 4x or less scope. If I can bust a 4" clay at 400 yards, what are the chances your 8..9" melon will fair better at 600 or 700 yards? Sure if you use standard 147gr 7.62x54r ammo in a 91/30 it will shoot minute of man at 400 yards, but if you shoot 180gr heavy ball, everything changes. When the Germans changed to 147..152gr in the 1930's so did the rest of the world including the U.S. . It did not work out that well. The Germans still issued 196gr to snipers. The Soviets also tried to duplicate the Brit MKVII bullet that has a hollow or lighter nose under the FMJ to make it yaw on impact, that also in light ball did not work so well.After WW2 The Yugo's started to produce heavy ball brass case 182gr 7.62x54gr as well as 196gr heavy ball 8x57. Another factor, Heavy Ball 7.62x54r actually has less felt recoil since it is stick powder, not ball(flake). Burn rate. As w/ any rifle, you can't expect the same POA/ POI w/ different weight ammo. Come by some time. I have some 1949 Turk heavy ball for 8x57, it is really hot, and accurate. I also have Hungarian light ball and Yugo heavy ball 7.62x54r, night and day. The Hungarian 1960's shoots great out of my 1977 Romanian PSL, all Romanian from Cugir as from day 1, not a U.S. parts gun. But it was designed to shoot light ball! Please, stop talking out of your @ss. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted: My 1942 PU 91/30 shoots a little over 4" at 400 yards, off hand. QUOTE] I agree the M91s and their derivatives are generally quite accurate. But I would surely like to meet you some day. I have never met the man or woman who, shooting offhand, can depend on ANY rifle to group in 4" at 400 yards without a rest of some sort. From the bench, yes, I've met quite a few who can do that. But offhand? Ain't never seen nary a one. So, it would be my pleasure to watch you do that.  | |||
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When can you come by? I guess I am seriously old school, and old. 90% of shooters don't know how to use a sling, 80% have'nt a clue to trigger control on 2 stage Military rigs. Well, I've shot them for years. Mausers, Mosin Nagants, Mas, Enfeilds, K31's..... I have not shot my No4MK1/3 Longbranch Enfeild in years, Bet I could best 4". My M41b, I know I can. | |||
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I'm sure not going to New Hampshire on the off chance of seeing that occur. But, if you are ever out in the Phoenix area, I'll take you to Ben Avery range so you can show me, and buy you lunch or dinner to boot. I'd love to see that done with a Moisin Nagant offhand. You can either use your own M-N(s) or one of mine. You can even use a scope of any kind and/or power you can fit onto it, and your own worked up handloads if you want...or any other 7.62x54R ammo you can come by. I've seen a lot of Camp Perry competitors shoot 2" groups at 200 yards offhand when wearing a tight sling and a heavy leather shooting jacket zipped so tight they can hardly wiggle, but never seen an offhand group of 5 shots in 4" at 400 yards. Especially not on demand. There may be a bone-lucky one once in a while somewhere, but I've never seen it done. Even the Perry shooters I've seen do the 2" at 200 yards thing reliably (that is, on demand) were shooting either tricked out M1-As, or mouse guns...mostly the latter. Would be a sight for sore eyes, and a respite for a jaded soul. Hope you are out this way one of these days before either of us fades away. Best wishes, AC My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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1939 World Shooting Championships: Walter Gehmann, later famous for his design of the Model 66 Mauser shoots a 20 shot string into a 5 inch bull at 300m off hand, using a diopter sight a record standing I believe to this day. It earned him the title of World Champion. The Rifle a M98 clone was prototyped in 50 actions only finnished as 10 rifles in 7x57 Gehmann hid the rifle so he and his rifle survived the War. Walter Roll who headed Mauser after the war redid the rifle in 7x66 Vom Hofe and this rifle still exists today | |||
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Remarkable shooting! It was 70 yards closer than 400 yards, but then it was 4 times the number of shots we were discussing, which is at least 30-40 times harder to do with 20 shots. I assume the Gehmann (SP - Gehemann?) diopter front sight still in use today is his design? Back in the old days when there were lots of schuetzen clubs in America, there were lots of very competent offhand shots here too. Some of them did truly remarkable 10-shot group shooting at 220 yards (40 rods), but that was just over half the distance of 400 yards. Again, though, several times more difficult than 5-shot groups. | |||
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Sp = Gehmann Company still going strong under directorship of his son. His famous diopter sights still manufactured and sought after. | |||
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They are still available through various sources in the U.S. Last time I checked, a couple of years ago, Brownells was still offering them. | |||
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Hell, Bill, clamping a bipod on the barrel may change the harmonics and improve accuracy. A couple of us have noticed a reduction in group size when we shoot with the bayonet extended on our M44's. | |||
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OMFG get off the BS bandwagon. I hear this BS all the time. We have a CA. boy that has an M44 and a Canuck in Arizona. You bash 'em, I'll shoot 'em. You and I Canuck usualy see pretty close on things. I am raffling a Finn 91/30 on another site. Not a $67.00 rifle. Come and see some snow. Back to the great white north, Eegh! | |||
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Waiter, I'll have what he's having. | |||
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Jpat - What do you think of the Finns' M28-30? As I recall, it has a slightly heavier barrel than the M39. The stock on mine looks as if it has seen a lot of military field service in not too pleasant conditions, but it still will shoot sub-MOA 5-shot groups at 100 yards from the bench with the original open sights and 2-stage military trigger. | |||
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Somebody a few years ago wrote an article comparing the MN,Mauser and the Enfield as to practical use. He lived with each rifle for 4 or 5 months and used it daily in his traping or other outdoor activity. He was surprised to find the MN as his preference and the Brit second. The Mauser was not as accurate as either of the others and not as "user friendly" . I'm sure all you Mauser lovers will sh** but I have no dog in this fight. I've found my Finn to b a very good rifle with the right ammo. I've not used a Russian much. I once had a Venezuelan M98 in 7x57 that would shoot 3 shot groups the size of a dime-From the Bench Alberta-at 200 yds. It was a special rifle made for the PanAmerican games . I shoot what ever I pickup as I go out the door but lean to a BRNO #1 these days. Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Overdoing. | |||
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