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For a wide variety of ranges and conditions it is hard to go wrong with a 338 WM. Easy to find ammo and cheaper than Weatherby. I've had good luck with 230 gr. Failsafes the last 3 or 4 years. | ||
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I once shot a yearling elk with a 7mm Magnum, 150 Nosler Partition at about 30 yards. At the shot, the elk turned to me with a disgusted expression and said in a very condescending voice, "Look, nimrod! You just hit me with a mere .284 diameter projectile with a sectional density of what, maybe .250? A**hole, you�re gonna have to hit me with something AT LEAST .308 inches wide OR with a minimum SD of .260 for me to even pay attention. So run along, little boy and play with your pop gun, but quit wasting my time.� Then he walked about 20 yards and fell over dead. Stupid elk, didn�t know his bullet tables worth a damn. The true SD of a 150 grain 7mm bullet is closer to .266, NOT .250, so I was over his minimum and he didn�t even know it. Ha! Little did he know that ballistic tables are the true killers of elk! MAFTSAP  | |||
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I would like to get the opinion of others on the ideal caliber for elk? Thanks. | |||
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There are several factors that would determine what is ideal for different situations, like gun weight, etc. All things considered I would have to say one of the fast .338's, like the 338 Lapua or 330 Dakota. | |||
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Brilliant posting, Jim - that one is going to become a classic ! Carcano | |||
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recoilpad The .338 Lapua Magnum is king when you need long range accurate and hard hitting performance. I hunted with a SAKO TRG-42 in RSA back in 2001 and took all the big PG animals. Blue wlderbeest at 330 Meters one shot no problem. That was the only bullet I recovered from that safari  Even with the Eland the bullet was through all the way, schoulder shot.The accuracy of the .338 LM is outstanding. I have shot 12 mm and 15 mm tree shot groups at 200 m  . SAKO use to make a TRG-S in .338 LM and 30-378 WBY mag. That rifle is more sporty then the TRG-42 sniper rifle. Cheers, Andr� | |||
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Quote: But the .33-caliber bullets offer greater SD, which is very desired when penetration is an issue. | |||
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i didn't see the 7 mag listed. 140 nosler would do the trick or a 160. i didn't read every word of every response but 400 yards off anything but a bench is a long way. you might be the guy that can shoot but you need that, the rifle and the conditions to do such. mighty big package. anyway, the 7 mag would do nicely IMHO. woofer | |||
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I have a 323 Hollis a 308 Norma Mag necked up to a 323 and this is one fine elk round I load 200gr part. I get around 3200F.P.S. P.O Ackley said this round is probably the most efficient round out there the bore to case size is ideal and I believe he is right excellent round so if any of you want a fine wildcat this is the way to go. | |||
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There is no ideal elk rifle for 100-400 yard shots. Too many variables. A better search would be for the ideal elk shooter that makes good hits to 350 yards every time. Since the ideal 400 yard shot would be no wind, standing broadside, using a familiar rifle possesing a good trigger and shooting bullets designed to expand at that distance, properly scoped held by a confident calm shooter with a good rest, repair your faults and use anything from a 270 up and get at least 50 yards closer. | |||
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I have done it plenty with my 378 WBY | |||
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my vote is for the 8mm rem mag. Should be backstraps in the freezer for the winter. Brian | |||
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IdahoCTD - I agree about the recoil of the .338 vs. the .375. However, I think it is because of the rifles they are in. The .338 is typically sold with the same stock design and barrel profile as a .7mm Magnum while the .375 usually gets the African Express treatment. My 8 1/2 pound Model 700 .338 WM kicked me hard and fast, my 10 pound .375 rocks me back further but is "gentler" (if I can use that word  ) overall. That's the one I can shoot prone with no ill effects. But my 8 3/4 pound Ruger #1 .375 H&H downright hurts.FWIW, the farthest shot I've ever made on a game animal was with the .375 H&H! A paced off 300 yards at a gemsbok and it was a dramatic bang-flop one shot kill. Also have to admit that the 100 yard dash up 60 degree slopes is a wee bit of hyperbole, but such things can and do happen. Sometimes you do have to run or give up the animal. My last elk was taken after a 1/4 mile jog on rolling ground through knee deep snow to cut off the small herd as they rounded a knoll before heading into a deep canyon. The actual shot was only about 125 yards up maybe a 20-30 degree slope. But what would be a 125 yard "gimme" on the rifle range is a whole different story when you're breathing hard after a 400 yard jog through snow. I can't imagine even trying a 300 yard shot under those conditions, much less anything further. But lest I do my usual overly-verbose thing, I'll just summarize my points again: Numero Uno and by far the most important: The IDEAL elk rifle is the one you can shoot straight. Not to mitigate caliber, obviously a .358 Magnum of some sort will hit harder than a .243 - but first and foremost you have to hit them where they live. Numero Two-o - Stuff happens in elk country. I've had gimme shots with me relaxed and well rested where the elk walked quietly out 30 yards in front of me. I've had them on opposite slopes 400 yards away with a canyon in between that would take me an hour to cross, looking at them through the scope on a 7mm Magnum rested dead steady across a back pack. I did not take that shot, BTW, although I'd punched several paper plates at 400 yards in anticipation of just such a scenario. Found those same elk 2 hours later after some moderately well planned hiking and got one. Be prepared for the worst "Stuff" and arm yourself accordingly. Numero Three-o - Most any rifle can be shot well by some people, but lighter recoiling rifles can usually be shot better by the majority of hunters. If someone can thread a needle with a .460 Weatherby more power to them. But for most folks, the .300 or .338 Win. Mag. is truly the upper limit for really pinpoint shooting. To badly paraphrase a famous gun writer, there are lots of 400 yard rifles, but not so many 400 yard hunters. Good huntin' this year, everybody! | |||
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400 yard shots on elk reqire a rifle that can accurately deliver alot of down range energy. I really think you have to look above and beyond the .277 bore. The big 7s start to have elk medicine written all over them esp. with 160 grain pills. Even better would be a large .30 cal shooting 180 grain or 200 grain well constructed bullets. If i had to pick just one 400 yard elk rig it would be a 338 ultra mag shooting either 225 grain partition or a 250 grain nosler clipping along at 3000fps. That is as long as the shooter was able to place the bullet. | |||
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Jim, I agree with much of what you've said but the thread is about the ideal caliber not what is used most often or what most can handle (sure ideal is subjective if you cant shoot the darn thing). With that being said I think the major reason people usually stop at .338 is because of rifle availability and/or factory bullet selection. If the factories were to load the H&H with lighter bullets/higher velocity to appeal to the elk hunter I think you'd see more of them sold. Do I think they would out sell the .338? No but that is primarily because the .338 is too well established in the market to be dethroned anytime soon (it's had many years to get there). I definately agree there are very few 400yd hunters. From what I've seen most that own .338's cant shoot them very well. I personally pratice at long range (out to 500yds with my big boomers and 800+ with my 30 magnums) all the time. I try to get as close as I can as well but in certain situations (such as spooked/nervous game or totally open terrain) getting closer isn't always an option at that point in time. You either shoot or pass. The last few years I've been muzzleloader hunting so I dont know if my 'lil .416 is going to see much action above deer sized game this year either. There's something about hunting late in the snow with a smokepole that's pretty exciting. Nathan | |||
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The ideal caliber for elk? It would have to be what ever your Comfortable shooting As for me ...... 180 grain in an /06 .... I have heard tell of guy's using a .22 Shame on them Just as with any game once you have shot a few you will find a ? comfort level // rifle///bullet weight.. It doen't take much to drop an Elk . the only hard part is trying to clean it by your self. And then trying to pack it out ( by your self )you really need some way to carry or pack it out once you have cut it up. small Canvas bag's big enough to put a hind quarter in will do. Or 7 mile's of rope / or cable. Anyway it really boil's down to what ever you feel best with O ya and Coffee.... lots of coffee | |||
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Quote: There! See! See! This is proof positive that Allen is an intelligent individual. He agrees with me - right down to the bullet weight and velocity! | |||
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Idaho Shooter, You just reminded me of my 8mm Rem Mag. It is a rifle that I have had for a long while. It is the Rem 700 BDL. I have several boxes of factory ammo left also. I shot up all of my 185's; and I think I have the 220's left. I put this rifle up because of the recoil. It is very light and it still has the factory recoilpad. The 185's weren't too bad; that is why that ammo is all gone. The 220's were a different story. I have only killed whitetail deer with this rifle. It is actually to much gun for them. The 185's made a mess; alot of meat loss. You are correct. This should make an ideal elk rifle; especially packing it up and down mountains. | |||
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"Ideal caliber for elk; 100 to 400 yard shots." The ideal caliber is the one that you can shoot well enough to hit an 8" paper plate the very first time at 400 yards. This ideal caliber must be available in a rifle that won't wear you out while carrying it all day in typical elk country, which is more often than not more vertical than horizontal. This ideal caliber must come in a rifle that won't whack with the scope when you try a steep uphill shot. Bore diameter can be from .277 to .510, doesn't matter a whole lot. I don't mean this to be a "glove in the face" question, but an honest one - how often have you shot from field positions at 400 yards at an 8" or maybe 10" bullseye and hit it with the first shot? It can be done by an accomplished shooter from prone, I used to be able to do it most of the time but not always with a 7mm Rem. Mag. From prone only, on the range, well rested and breathing easily, I wouldn't even try that from the sitting position. I don't know anyone outside of a champion target shooter all wrapped up in shooting coat and sling or a professional military/police sniper using a bipod that could actually make a first round hit at 400 yards on an 8" bullseye from the sitting or kneeling position. And I don't know how many of those guys could do it after running a 100 yard dash uphill at 5,000 to 10,000 feet wearing heavy boots, wrapped up in winter clothing and carrying say, 8 to 10 pounds of stuff in a buttpack or backpack. I would be very interested in seeing someone shoot a .375 H&H, .338 RUM or something of that power and recoil level, that was light enough to pack at 8,000 feet, do so from the sitting position at a 45 to 60 degree uphill shot, at 400 yards, after climbing said 8,000 feet and maybe running the last 100 or 200 yards, and hit the heart/lungs with the first shot. Not saying there isn't someone that can't, just that I would be very interested to see it. BTW, you have 8 seconds before that 7X7 makes it to the trees. Do you use a rangefinder to make sure it is 392 yards in the clear mountain air instead of 476 yards and watch the elk disappear by the time you've mounted your rifle, or do you make your best guess and shoot? There is not a rifle around that you won't have to hold over some amount to make a hit at 400 yards, unless of course you sight it in at 400 yards and don't mind an 8" or 9" midrange trajectory. But enough reality - get a .300 Win. Mag. in an 8 to 8 1/2 pound rifle, load it with 180 grain premiums at 3050-3100 fps and have a nigh perfect rifle for those 400 yard shots at elk. Or just realize that 98-99% of all elk are shot well under 300 yards and get anything from a 7mm-08 to a .338 Win. mag. The .338 Win. Mag. is actually quite nice for the conditions under which elk are normally shot. Or just do like the guys who have about 40 elk racks hanging on their barns do and get a .270 or .30-06. But not to belabor the point too much, just make sure you can shoot straight and it won't matter too much what you use. Lots of dead elk every year using every caliber under the sun, from .223's to .50 caliber muzzle loaders. | |||
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338RM is all you need for those distances, If you are expecting longer shots check out the RUM or similar overbore cartridges | |||
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For Elk I like heavy bullets traveling fast. Between myself, my son and grandson, we have used .300 Win mag, .340 Wby, .338 Lapua, .358 STA for the last several years and taken many Elk. Yep, you can get lucky with smaller rifles and you can be good with the smaller rifles, as one of my buddies is with his .270. As for me, give I want at least a 180 grain bullet in 30 cal on up to 270 grain .358 bullet that will hit it's mark out to 350 yards without having to worry. Good shooting. | |||
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Jim in Idaho You put in print my thoughts exactly. When I was just starting to hunt and following my Grandpa and my Dad through the woods, both used to say that you have about 5 seconds to make your shot. Over the years there have been some exceptions, but for the most part, they were right. Hard to argue with the 300 Win Mag being about as close to perfect for Elk as it comes. My vote, goes to the 338 Win Mag though. My Elk rifle is a Model 70, SS Classic, 338 Win Mag. | |||
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Idaho Jim makes several very valid points. Mainly, be able to shoot whatever you carry. Thus my comment about being able to shoot my 300 enough to stay sharp with it. I have owned a 8mm Rem Mag!! Being philoshopically opposed to brakes, I never took it elk hunting. Nor hunting anything else for that matter. By the time I shot it off the bench enough to get a load developed and the rifle sighted in, I had come to believe the 8mm and I did not have a future together. Strangely, I bought it used and it came with a box of shells with 4 missing. Wonder why??  | |||
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Jim, I can do it! Because I carry oxygen with me! Personally, I like to get within 150 yards. I did hit an elk once at over 600 yards (closer to 700 range was verified by laser after the shot), VERY STUPID... let me repeat that VERY STUPID! I lost the animal too, which made that particular shot VERY F_CKING STUPID!! I agree the 300 Winnie is all that is required, although I prefer 200 grain pills myself. I really do use the 416 Rigby though myself, it work real well, too. It is heavy, but I really don't notice much difference, I am chucking my guts sitting in a chair at 11,000 feet. I have lived in the low country too long. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Thanks to everyone that responed. I appreciate the input. I actually have two rifles in my battery that I was thinking about using for elk. I was wanting to see if they showed up in the recommendations. At least one of them did. My two guns are a .338 RUM in a Remington Sendero and the other is a .358 Norma Magnum in a FN Mauser. Both rifles shoot extremely well. I don't reload so I have to use factory ammo. I have Remington 250 gr Swift A-Frames for the .338 and Norma 250 gr Woodleigh SP for the .358. Based on what I have read from you all, I should be fine with either one of these, right? Thanks again. | |||
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Recoilpad, Yup your hardware is up to the task, there is no excuse to fund another rifle. That 358 Norma, although its getting to be a obsolete cartridge now days is a very good round. | |||
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recoilpad: Keep in mind that Federal HE ammo with 250-grain bullets is advertised to reach 2800 fps at the muzzle. I shot some at the range with my .338WM, and they clocked at 2770 fps, pretty close to their number. The temperature was 55 degrees, at 480' sea level. Bullet drop at 300 yards would be around -8" with the rifle sighted +2" at 100 yards. I have shot two moose with one ea. Federal 250-grain HE, one at 250 yards, and another one (two days ago) at 300. Each moose was dropping by the time I had reloaded the chamber. The first one was shot through the lungs, and the one this year was shot through the shoulders (that's all I could see through the trees). Some shoulder meat was damaged, however. | |||
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The "ideal" cartridge in my opinon would be anywhere from a 7mm mag. to a .338 mag. Don't think that you have got to get a big gun though. I know people that shoot elk and kill them easily with .243's and 25/06's. I'd say whatever caliber you get would do the job. | |||
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This is easy. The .338" bullet is just too small, while the .375" bullet is obiously waaaaay too big. Therefore, the only answer is surely a 358 caliber. Any questions? | |||
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I love the .338 WM and this year will be using a load with 250gr. Woodleigh's pushed with the max charge of RL22 for my gun. It is accurate and with my zero point I can shoot them in the vitals to 300 yards from field positions with no problem. Being you have some real thumpers already I see no point in trying to stear you in a new direction. The point of being able to shoot well with what you choose is way more important than most anything else within reason! | |||
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Quote: I don't run with loaded rifles. Anyone in good enough shape to backpack up 60 degree inclines at 8000 feet, shoot an elk, and pack it out sure as hell ought to be able to stand up to the recoil of a .338 or .375. If he cannot, then he needs to spend more time shooting because recoil tolerance is learned, not inherited. | |||
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Quote: Okay, point taken. I did not have YOU specifically in mind when I wrote that, but since you seem to feel personally impugned I will amend this to, "run the hundred yard dash with a rifle with AN EMPTY CHAMBER, always mindful that his muzzle is pointing in a safe direction, then work the bolt to load a round into the chamber, all the while keeping his finger out of the trigger guard until the moment he is about to shoot, and then and only then, fire and hit an 8" to 10" target at 400 yards with hsi very first shot".  However, a lesson in rifle safety is not the point I was making. It's not about having cajones big enough to handle the recoil of a large caliber rifle, hell, I have fired many rounds from my Model 70 .375 H&H, FROM THE PRONE POSITION and I'm still alive to tell about it. Everytime someone mentions a point like this the big bore guys come out and get defensive and, again, it was not my point to make the big bore guys get defensive. The question was asked - what is an ideal caliber for elk for 100 to 400 yards shots? My answer included a statement to the effect that elk are killed every year by all manner of calibers, both big and small. However, based on real world conditions and the terrain in which elk are most often hunted, a big honkin' boomer is probably not the "IDEAL" choice. The ideal choice probably runs from the .270 on the low end to a .338 Win. Mag. on the high end. At least that seems to be the majority viewpoint of people who hunt a lot of elk, judging by the rifles actually carried by these successful elk hunters. That's the only point I was trying to make. | |||
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I couldn't walk 100yds throw the rifle up and hit a paper plate @ 400yds  I guess I'm lucky I live in white tail country. | |||
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What Jim in Id said....both times! I agree that the 300 Mag is difficult to beat for Elk. For me, I like the 30-06 with about 200 fs less and screw the idea of shooting them @ 400 yds. If you cant get within 300 yds youd better go home. | |||
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