I have recently built a 35 whelen on a Rem 700 action with a 24" 1-14" twist Shilen barrel. The action is pillar bedded, the recoil lug has bedding compound only on the back side, and the barrel is floated. The problem is that I haven't been able to come near to any of the faster velocity loads without my accuracy falling apart.

With 250 gr. bullets, 2300fps is all I can get before my groups open up to 4" or so. Very poor accuracy by my standards. Also, 225's and 200's seem about 300fps slower than max when their groups also open up.

I have built many rifles on 700 actions and I have never ran into any problem like this. Has anybody else had accuracy problems with their 35 Whelens?

A 35 Whelen should go nearly 2,600 fps from a 24†barrel. Most rifles can do it with 250-gr. Hornadys or Partitions and RL-15 or Varget. Can you give us details? What loads have you tried?


Okie John

James,

I have a Win. Model 70 chambered in 30/06, and it shoots, factory or reloads, slower than expected... by about 300-500 fps.... with no exceptions. If I try to get near expected velocity, accuracy slips away. It's just the way it is. I could try another barrel, but I can live with it, so I won't bother.

Point is, your barrel/chamber may just be a slow one.

My Whelen on the other hand, performs better than expected.

JB,

Like Okie says we need a few details in order to help. I have found the 35 Whelen one of the easiest catridges to with reload accurately and with good velocity. I have two and both are sub 1" rifles.

BigBullet

I am using Winchester brass, with Fed. 210 primers. All groups are at 100yds.

With the Nosler 250gr Partition I have been using IMR 4320 and AA2520 powders. With the 50 grains of IMR 4320 my groups average 1.5". At 51gr, 52gr, 52.5gr, grains they open up to 3.5"-4" and 53grs opens to 4+"

With the same bullet with AA2520 at 48grs I am getting 2", but as I increase it the groups grow up to 5.5" at 52grs.

With 200gr Hornady Interlocks w/ AA2520 at 55grs, 56gr, and 57gr. I was getting 2.5"-3" groups.

One interesting note is that all of the group strings are vertical or horizonal, no diagonals or clusters.

Nosler Partitions are one of my favorite bullets and it is starting to get expensive to find a load for them. Their are no signs of high pressure except with the 53grs of IMR4320, the case head is starting to expand about .0005 in diameter and the cases start to grow.

The rifle has a #4 barrel contour, so it is no feather weight, that is why I am so surprised by the inaccuracy of it. And obviously other people can get theirs to shoot quite well. I did notice in the Nosler reloading manual that all of their best groups came from the min. loads

I have not tried RL-15 or Varget. What loads are you using? What barrel, action and config are you shooting? I have never had good luck with full lenght bedding, but maybe the Whelen needs it. Thanks for the responses

James,

Have you chronographed your loads to see what the velocity is? Real life vs "what the book says" are often two different things.

Even the Nosler reloading manual seems to show that the most accurate loads with these two powders are the "min loads," so I would not be too surprised that it is also what you experienced.

I never had good look with 4320 in my Whelen, and went to IMR 4895 years ago. I use the Speer 250gr over 53 grs of 4895. My hunting buddy swears by 55grs RL 15 in his Whelen. I would try switching powder and working up from starting loads of 49grs of 4985 and 50gr of RL 15 before I did anything else.

Barstooler

James..Change your powder!! When I built my Whelen I had accuracy issues...and then a friend with a Whelen told me to try IMR4064...WOW! What a difference! Every bullet I have tried from 158gr up thru 250gr shoots accurately with that powder in my rifle..and I don't have any trouble reaching top velocity either. RL 15 is another standard for the Whelen..

Zeeriverrat1

If your groups are horizontal and vertical then you have an improperly bedded gun...Its moving all over the place.

Vertical groups generally show that the action is bowed by the front screw, or the tang screw may be loose. At any rate you have a warping taking place...

Vertical groups show front screw slightly lose or looseness from a poorly bedded rifle. if a shot comes to center then tighten the front screw a bit..walking can be the result of pressure on the barrel channel or the action and those two problems can contridict each other so move carefully here and know where to remove material....

Frankly from your description I think your bedding is a mess...to start with even a free floated barrel should have an inch or two contact on the chamber portion of the barrel..Like any bedding, glass cannot solve the problem if its done wrong..

Glass bedding properly is as much a science as hand bedding a wood stock, only glassin is more difficult..any 10 year old can inlet with a little instruction. It takes years to learn to glass bed properly...

Mike, I have chronographed all of my loads and they are pretty close to the book, about 50fps slower. The standard deviations seem acceptable to, anywhere from 15 to 35fps for most loads.

Barstooler, I will give IMR 4895 and RL15 a shot and see how it works

Zeeriverrat1, I will also try IMR4064

Atkinson, I would agree that it seems like the bedding is a mess, but it isn't. The action is pillar bedded and only sits on the two pads of epoxy, about .75 of an inch in diameter, above the aluminum pillars. When bedded, I didn't use the action screws to torque the action down. I use multiple index cards to space the action and barrel up and use multiple rubber bands or surgical tubing to hold the action in the stock. The bedding around the recoil lug is relieved so that only the back face of the lug contacts the bedding compound. This is something that I know the washer type recoil lugs on the 700 are very sensitive too.

On my BR and Tactical rifles with heavy barrels, I usually do bed the barrel under the chamber area. This is usually because the Rem 700 action is a little flimsy for 26" heavy barrels. I have never had to do it on regular taper barrels, but this may be a case of what it needs.

I will try these other powders and if it my groups don't shrink, I will try bedding the barrel in front of the action under the chamber. Thanks

Try RL-15 and 250-gr. Hornadys. In my stock Ruger M-77, with a 4x Leupold and a duplex reticle, I got MOA and 2,550 fps with a load below the published max. A better shooter with a higher-powered scope and a finer reticle might have been able to shrink that. You'll also find that powder makers publish hotter data than bullet makers.

Also try Federal's 225-gr. Trophy Bonded load. It shot well in both my stock Ruger and my custom M-70.


Okie John

James,

There is one thing I like to do when trying to select a powder for a new load.

I compare min. - max loads in at least 3 different manuals, checking the powders I have on hand.

I then pick an acceptable mid-range load for each powder, and load one case with each mid-range loading.

I then shoot them across the choney, and the one(s) with a velocity closest to what I expect is the powder(s) I use to work up the load.

It has saved me a great deal of aggrivation.

My Whelen liked IMR4895 with the Sierra 225 bullet.

This is going to sound completely nuts, but have you tried putting an artificial pressure point in the stock a couple of inches back from the end? Some barrels like that better than free floating. Remington typically puts a pressure point on the bottom of the barrel about 3" from the forend tip. (Or at least used to. I haven't bought a new Remington in years...)

James_B,

Your problems with accuracy do seem to be bedding related, but it appears that you have checked all those related issues.

How does your rifling/crown area look? My one 35 Whelen has a Shilen barrel and it seemed like it took about 100 rounds and some JB's before it come into good accuracy.

My favorite accuracy loads today are with R-15 and IMR 4320 and 225 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips(and they're cheaper to shoot then NP's).

In your rifle it sounds as if 53 grains IMR 4320 is close to your max. In my rifle 57.0 IMR grains is max with 250 grain bullets. Could there be something here with a very tight chamber, lead, case length, or overall cartridge length?

A favorite accuracy load for my Springfield Whelen is 59.5 grains R15 with 225 Nosler BT. You can go faster with this load combo if you desire and the pressures are acceptable. With this bullet/load 2750 fps are reached in my 24" Rem 700 rifle.

Good Luck,
BigBullet

BigBullet,

4 more grains of IMR 4320 is alot. That makes me suspicious that my barrel may be out of spec. The bore doesn't have the lapped look that my Kriegers, Harts, and Pac-Nors have. Who knows, maybe they forgot to lap it before it went out. I will take a closer look.

The crown is perfect. I build all of my own stuff so that I know that it is perfect. This barrel came from Brownells not directly from Shilen which I have heard Brownells gets Shilen's second rate stuff. Out of all of the rifles I've built this barrel seemed to be one of the roughest I have seen. And I stopped using Shilen barrels about four years ago because of this. They all shot decent but were harder to clean.

I have re-checked the head spacing and it is on the short end of the "Go" range, but in the "Go" range as I remember building it. I built it about five years ago but never got around to shooting it.

This is the only cartridge I have ever chambered that I used a solid pilot. I usually fit the removable pilot within a tenth so that I eliminate as much error as possible.

But, all of this has me thinking. I am going to check the reamer for runout, slug the bore, and take it over to my buddys and bore-scope it. I have a hard time believeing it is just a powder or bullet selection issue. I haven't built a rifle that shot over two inch groups no matter what it was fed with. My 6 BR with a 1-14" twist shoots better groups when I tried 87gr Hornadys that keyholed the target.

Thanks

Hello,
I noticed that you are using a 1-14 twist barrel. Are lighter bullets more accurate?
John

J_Zola,

Are you talking about my Whelen or my 6BR?

I haven't found anything to be accurate in my Whelen, from 200-250grs when I crank it up.

As for my BR I ws refering to the fact that the twist will only stabilize up to about 75gr bullets.

Hello,
I am talking about the whelen. I have read here that the 1-14 was to slow. I do not know if this is fact or Remington bashing.
John

I am in agreement with the gentelmen who recomend using another powder ! My Whelen ,an old mauser loves RL-15. And if you go to the Aliant web page you will find a copressed load with 250 grain bullets, that gives good velocity and low preasures. I can get a little more in my cases and I use the same charge weight with 225 grain sierra,s and 250 grain speers, results are excelent in every respect, (I only wish I could get a shot at an Elk,) I am begining to think I might as well be hunting unicorns...tj3006

I just sorted out my 35 whelen with an AB 14 twist barrel. It seems to like the 250 speers slighly better than the Hornady. I am getting 1 1/4" groups at 200 yards. My best loads are as follows:

35 W remington brass,250 speeer, WLR primer, 57.5 grains of Varget or 57.5 grains of VV N-140.3.33" OAL. Both loads are moderate in my barrel.

I would also expect Re-15 to work well.

My M98 with a $49 Adams and Bennett barrel shoot's great with anything! It shoots 125gr 357 bullets and 225 Sierras equally well.