The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Caliber for LW Sheep/Antelope/Deer rifle?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I am looking for thoughts, experiences, and recomendations on calibers. I am thinking about building an ultra lightweight(4.5# w/o scope) Sheep/Antelope/Deer rifle. I have a 7# (with scope) 300WM that I love and can do everything I neeed...but thats not the point, is it? I want the lightest rifle and recoil I can get and still be reasonably capable under the "use enough gun theory". My initial thoughts are as follows: 270 Win- great factory bullet choices-no brainer 257 Wby- great flat shooter but recoil ? 25-06 Short magnums?-not alot of real advantages as i can build the weight I need on regular action, .4" shorter bolt thow? Any additional thoughts are appreciated. | ||
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I personally thing that 25 WSSM(Winchester super short magnum) would be a fantaqsic round to hunt with on a light rifle frame. seems to hold plenty of KE but still pack enough range to take down what your in the market for. 3100fps with 2347 ft lbs. is more than enough to take down any deer on this continent, Antelopa too. Im not real familiar with sheep but I would imagine they cant be that tough skinned. Also, www.midwayusa.com is a good way to get a good feel for caliber calculations. When im looking for a new caliber to buy I check there site and research the rifle ammunition page. most have there round about calculations for FPS and KE. I looked at that 25 WSSM not too long ago and was very intrigued by its performance. | |||
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i've used a 270 win for everything you mentioned. my answer is the 270 win. | |||
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 once built a 4.5# 6.5x55. Recoil was punishing. weighted heavily on recoil a long throated 6mm seems about right. Once built and used a 6mm/.270 IMP. Was a fantastic mule deer killer but adequate bullet selection was a must.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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IMHO the 25/06 with a good dose of IMR4831 and a 120gr Partition will get your job done. GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!! IF YOU'RE GONNA GET OLD,YOU BETTER BE TOUGH!! GETTIN' OLD AIN'T FOR SISSIES!! | |||
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6.5x55improved or 6.5x57improved.... i like the 6.5mm.'s weight range for your requirements and i like the 57mm. case over the '06 case. the 6.5's seem to be inheratntly accurate and the 55 and 57 case in the improved configuration usually run right on the heels of the '06 based rounds, if not equal to them. plus, they are very reloader freindly and deliver thier performance without all the recoil and muzzleblast of the basicly overbore '06 cased counterparts. you won't need the, "at least" 25 or 26 inch tube to get the full potential out of the case volume, well maybe a 25 incher but you can use a really light profile with the 6.5 bore and still get a fairly stiff tube out of it. the only thing to watch for is that the 6.5 bore seeems to be a bit twist picky when considering the entire weight range out of the same gun, but for the animals you mention, the bullet weights would be pretty much the same, i would think. | |||
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I would just build a 260 and be done with it. The .4" tradeoff can be used for barrel length. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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If you're placing a limit on game size like you seem to be, a 257 Wby with 110gr Accubonds would be my choice. | |||
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A concern I have is that the 110 or even 120 gr. bullet is much lighter than i am accustomed to-shooting my 308 with 150's or my 300WM with 180-200's. Can a .25 cal be my allround lighter rifle capable of bigger ( 200#)whitetails in upper michigan? If the answer is yes, than why not 243? I assumed on the medium rifles page, more people would steet towards 270, 280 etc. | |||
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A 257 is ideal for your purposes. With 100gr Barnes ttsx, 110gr Accubond or Interbond, you'll have a high BC bullet that'll fly fairly flat and still have the strength to do what you want. I would suggest a 257 rob.....maybe AI, but the normal BOB at +p loadings sounds to be about the perfect set up. The reason I didn't step down 1 more caliber to the 6mm's is the bullets mentioned above. While the 257 COULD be used for varmints just like the 243, I think when you step over the line from 243 to 257 you turn it into more of a medium game gun and less dual purpose. Sure there are heavier 6mm from 100-115gr, but they require special twists, no factory loadings and are primarily target bullets that can work as a hunting bullet, not a hunting bullet as designed. For what you're asking, no need to step up to a short mag, 06 case or anything bigger, honestly. A 260 Rem was also a good suggestion. Same with a 7x57. But, not needed, especially when you're talking such a superlight rifle. A 4.5lbs .270 Win is probably going to feel like a 8lbs 300 Win Mag. If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Btw the reason I didn't support the 25wssm, is due to the lack of selection as far as super ultralight parts are concerned. Very few after market stocks. Now if you went with a NULA.....then get the 25wssm as that super tiny action would allow a longer barrel for better ballistics while still remaining at the same weight and not requiring the 24-26" tube needed for anything much faster If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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+1, or a 6.5x47 Lapua or a 6.5 Creedmoor if you want something a little more out of the ordinary. A SAAMI length 257 Bob might do nicely too. I'd skip the '06 length rounds, the big bottles, and the WSSMs unless you find a lightweight single-shot action to play with. | |||
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LBGuy- just so you know, my custom gun builder said the same thing--270 all the way. he basically said if you want to shoot 110/120gr bullets you can( reducing recoil), and if you want to step up to shoot bigger stuff-even elk you could with the 270. For me, the 270 is so much like my 308 that they are interchangeable, so I was thinking smaller calibers-with which I dont have much experience. | |||
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To go that light, you'll want a SA IMO. Recoil goes up quite drasticly on ultrlights when you get above rounds like the 270-280 class. Even a 308 w/165gr bullet is not pleasent to shoot in a rifle lighter than 6#. So a 7-08 W/ 140-150gr bullet would seem just about right in a 20" ultralight. A 260 w/ 130NAB, probably just as good. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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fredj338- I'm sorry. What is SA? Short action? | |||
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I've used my .257 AI for scores of everything that you mentioned for the past 30+ years. I shoot 117 gr GameKings or 120 gr Hornady HP bullets and this is one of my favorite rifles. With this combination, I've made one shot kills on 3 prairie dogs standing in a line, Pronghorns, Mule and Whitetail deer, Bighorn rams, a Dall ram, Mountain caribou, and a large 6 pt bull elk. I built mine on a long action so I have enough magazine length for seating out the heavy for caliber bullets. While this is not my first choice as an elk rifle, it is for everything smaller. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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-larrys Never really thought about the trade off of action for barrel. That makes alot of sense. I am always looking for more barrel in my rifles, for velocity and overall handling while keeping the overall package short! | |||
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6.5x284 is the ticket for your bill. It will do what you need on big Mich whitetails and you can use the lighter pills for antelope etc. It is very flat and a darling in the accuracy game as it is capable of being tuned to just gilded edged accuracy. I have a couple in sporting rifles that shoot unbelievably well. Brass is readily available and there is a great selection of 6.5 bullets. I have hammered some really big whitetails with mine, and several antelopes. 129 grain hornady and the lighter TSX both shoot great! It will typically give you one less round in the mag than a 270 though, if that matters to you--I still get 4 + 1 with my Sako 75 and 85 action based rigs. Forster dies are typically in stock and are great! | |||
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GDOG, Yes, SA = short action. True its only 1/4" shorter action, but on a true ultralight every single ounce counts. So you don't just think of it as 1/4" shorter action....its a shorter action, shorter bolt, shorter barrel, shorter stock, possibly smaller scope base mounts, so on and so forth. My ultralight is a 30 cal, its still being built. I have nearly 100% decided on a 308, possibly a 30/284, and I imagine its going to have a bite at both ends. I went with the larger caliber as I primarily hunt elk and mule deer. Not to mention I originally was going to build a 300wsm so I already had the #1 shilen match barrel, figured screw it go 308! If I was to do it over again? Id probably be looking at the 250 Savage or 260 Rem and just get another 30 mag for my secondary back up gun. But, it is what it is! If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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 Tough to beat this./////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I'm with Fish. For your application the 6.5x284 is perfect. Accuflite here in Pittsburgh loves to re chamber Sako 6.5x55s and turn them into one holers. | |||
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To build a gun that light I suspect you will have to use a short or super short action. That leaves out the .270 Win. I would look at WSSM or .308 Win based cartridges. You might be able to take a Kimber, cut the barrel, and get close to that weight. Or you could look at a Ruger Compact...in walnut and blue they come close to that weight. "Beware the man with only one gun; he may know how to use it." | |||
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Thank you for the excellent feedback. I appreciate all the experiences and reccomendations. FWIW, Lex at Rifles Inc., who has built fantastic rifles for my dad and I said that he can get the 270 at or below the wieght I am looking for--I was thinking WSM prior to that. My post here was really to get feedback about some sexier and maybe smaller caliber ideas. Thanks to all. I have some thinking to do. | |||
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Depending on which SA you use, the 6.5x.284 will not run well bullets heavier than 120gr w/o some serious tweeking. It's why I went w/ a 260ai in my M700SA. You'll save a quite a bit of wt. depending on your action choice. I believe the M700SA are the lightest, & you can get alloy parts for the bolt & floor plate, making it lighter still. Slim profile alloy rings & two piece base w/ a compact 2-7 or 3-9 scope to top it off. I wanted a lt.wt. mountain rifle & went 280 in a wood stock, Leup. 3-9 compact. It weighs 7 1/4# readt to hunt, I could probably shave another 4-6oz off by hollowing out some metal & wood, another 1/2# w/ a good syn stock, but it shoots so well & 7# seems like a dream compared to 8 1/2# or so for most factory rifles.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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If you have Lex do it, you will certainly be pleased with the results. I've had or have 4 or 5 of his rifles, and they're flawless machines. How about a Strata Lightweight? | |||
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I handled a friend's rem 700 titanium in 270 this past weekend and it was very light. I know of another friend who loves his in 300 RSAUM. He had to have a brake put on it. The 270 would surely suit you fine | |||
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7mm-08 | |||
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257 recoil? You won't feel a thing if there is a sheep in your scope. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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25 wssm chambered in a M70 Featherweight. | |||
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If you are really thinking light weight you should do this holistically which includes your ammo. You also want it to be consistent and accurate because one assumes mountain rifle and longer shots. so... Short action: 7mm-08, 284 Win, or 260 rem Fluted # 3 or # 2 contour Lone wolf 1 lb stock Remington 600 or Remington Mod 7 action or Remington Ti I don't think 4.5 lbs is achievable unless you go with a 20 inch bbl and a # 1 contour and then I am not even sure. You will also then suffer velocity and accuracy. Lt weight action is 2 lbs at best, stock is a 1 lb. A much more achievable goal 5-5.5 lbs You might also consider a Kimber and then replacing the stock with a lonewolf ultralight stock Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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When you get done with it, send it to John Farner (Toomany Tools) here and have this done with it. Light Weight Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I'm with Fish also. All the cartridges mentioned would work with varying amounts of recoil. The 6.5/.284 is outstanding for accuracy and recoil. I have built one gentleman three in various weights and barrel lengths. Light weight (5.5#), 22" pencil barrel for mountain hunting, Standard hunting, heavier barrel 24" and 1000 yd. P'dog gun, heavy 28" barrel, muzzle brake, 12-13 lbs. He loves the 6.5/.284. He shoots everything with it up to, but not including, big bear. ........Tom SCI lifer NRA Patron DRSS DSC | |||
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You said it yourself right at the start: 270 Winchester, no-brainer. | |||
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+1 I went through this process a while ago and decided on either a Sako Finnlight, restocked, in 300WSM, which is under 6#. Or a Weatherby Ultra-light in 270win. 5 3/4#. Although they are not custom, they almost fit the bill, and are basically off-the-shelf (which I like). I took the extra $2000 and bought both.  | |||
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Having had experience with 4 1/2 pound rifles, I personally think that in a .270 you're going to have one big kicking mule when doing your bench work. If you put a scope on it get a long eye relief.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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The .260 Rem is ideal for this aplication. Short action, light kick, high sd bullets, good trajectory, easy to find brass and components. 100grn-140grn weight hunting bullet selection will fit the bill antelope through big deer. | |||
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.260 rem. 6.5 creedmoor 7MM-08 | |||
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A deer/sheep/antelope LW rifle... Starts with a 257 Roberts and ends with a "No Brainer" 270 Win.. DRSS & Bolt Action Trash | |||
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If you mentioned a budget for your project i did not catch it, But if you can afford $3000.00 Give melvin forbes a call at new ultra light rifles. John barnsness has one of his rifles chamberd for the .257 weatherby and is very happy with it. If you are more in the 1000.00 dollar range, just get yourself a kimber 84 in .257 Roberts. I get 3140 with listed loads form a 20 inch ruger. Thats is with a 100 grain barnes tsx. the round is just plain good. You could kill any game up to 400 lbs (in my opinion) real quick with that combo. I use the same bullet in a .257 weatherby at 3550. But mine ain't so light...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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