I was wondering how many guys have shyed away from the wsms and wssm cartridges with Winchester closing their plant.I have heard that Tarus is thinking about making model 70s and model 94s.I think the 300 wsm and 270 wsm will keep going with the 270 wsm outselling the 300 wsm.I think the remington short mags are going to be history in two years or so.I dont think we need all the new cartridges that came out so quickly.It was too much too soon.If Remington goes belly up I think Ruger will determine which rounds will last or not.

I don't think the WSM's 270 or 300 will ever go away. The Remington series may though. I "fought" buying a 300 WSM for years saying it had no use but I kept on seeing them at the range and most were tack drivers. Plus they are built on lighter weight actions. I just hope I can find a leftie in 270 before all the Winchester stock drys up.

I don't buy anything based on the availability of factory ammo, so no, wouldn't cahnge my mind a bit. Just lay in enough brass to last you & be happy w/ your choice.

dgr416 ----- My Winchester Model 70 .270 WSM is simply outstanding and will always have a place in my vault. Because it is so good I just bought a .243 WSSM and am in the process of scoping it and gathering in brass, bullets, etc. I also am of the opinion someone else will produce the Model 70's in the future. Good shooting.

dgr416, It hasn't changed my mind to directly answer your post question.

An interesting sidebar though is--despite all the talk of Short mags going away in the shops etc., this past week, with crap weather and not being able to go to the range, I visited several shops and asked the question, what is the most popular caliber you are selling.

Without hesitation, all 12 shop personnel, asked seperately-- a widely varied bunch, the youngest being about 25 years old, average probably in the upper forties for everyone and included one female, about 45 years old--
all answered promptly and emphatically 'the Short Mags' or 'the WSM's'.

With a little more questioning, the WSSM's were significantly less popular than the WSM's, and 2 of the three shops were not stocking any SAUM, the one that was had the 300 SAUM--2 rifles. It seems that the WSM's have won the battle in sales, but based on this admittedly non-scientific assesment, it is a lot of bullshit that the short mags 'are just dying out there'.

When asking what rifles folks are buying if not a short mag, the answers were all over the place, somewhat surprisingly to me though, the most common answer was 25.06--after that it was pretty consistent, 270 WIN, 300 Win Mag, and 30-06--in that order.

Just FYI--Don

It hasn't changed my mind one bit. In fact I had to eat my words. I had never been a fan of the short anythings. Or ultra mags for that matter.

But I found a CZ Model 3 that I just had to have. Most beautiful piece of wood I have ever seen on a factory rifle. Or at least one that did't cost well over $1000 dollars from a custom shop.

I picked it up and it felt great, the balance, fit, pointability. The action is solid, smooth, the finish and fit are above average for a mass produced gun. It is not a stainless, but a satin finish. I have cycled well over 300 rounds of ammo through it trying to get it to misfeed. It hasn't miscycled a cartridge yet.

I bought it. It could have been any caliber but the rifle sold me. It just happened to be a 300 WSM.

I bought 300 pieces of brass, I figure I am set for life. Beside, doesn't Olin corp. make all the reloading supplies anyway?

The way I look at it, I have a cartridge that will do anything I ask of in N. America. I can easily match 300 WM ballistics or just load moderate pressure loads and still better the 30-06.

All one would have to do is buy a bunch of brass for any of the short mag's and as a reloader you would never have a worry. The caliber's aren't going anywhere.

I haev a Browning in 30 WSM, and I quite like the calibre and the rifle. It will probably end up my sons one day and I will replace it with a Finnlight in the same calibre.

I would not buy a WSM or WSSM whether Winchester was closing its doors or not!

Barstooler

I agree with Barstooler. I've never had any desire for a WSM. They're answers without a question. Solutions without a problem. Marketing hype to sell new rifles, which apparently didn't do that well enough.

I bought a 243 WSSM after it was announced Winchester was closing. It really doesn't outperform my .243 Win, but is a more compact rifle. I might buy a WSM, was looking at a 7mm, maybe I will get a 270 WSM, would like too have a 25 WSSM

quote:

Has Winchester closing the doors changed your mind about buying a wsm or wssm?

No sir. I never wanted any of them to begin with. But that's just me and I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to cartridge selection.

If you really want one, go buy one. Vendors other than Winchester offer brass and loaded ammuntion. Likwise, manufacturers other than Winchester offer rifles. I can forsee the 270 and 300 WSM's surviving for a long time based on the popularity of them today. I would not invest in the others. Further, I wouldn't let anyone give me a Remington SAUM if it meant I wouldn't be able to rebarrel it to something else. I just don't see the SAUMs lasting much longer.

And that's MHO.

IMO the best thing about the WSM's are the Kimber rifles, and they are not going away soon. I bought a .300 WSM because I found a Kimber limited edition with french walnut stock that I couldn't pass up. I have been pleasantly surprised to find that I like the round also, though it is really unnecessary. I think they will be around for a good long while, but I am going to buy some more of that good Norma brass for mine, just in case.

I sent winchester an email, off of their web site a couple of weeks ago, asking for a catalog....

Got it on Friday....

Neither it, or their web site has said a darn thing about them closing their doors....

If they are certain about doing it, you'd think that their web site would mention it now... and that they wouldn't waste the time or the postage to send out catalogs....

I really think there is something to this "winchester closing its door" thing to jack up prices on their products....

I really think some MBA whiz is trying to pull a fast one....

I think the WSM case will be around and also components.....

None of this adds up at all!

seafire

1. They've probably got a small warehouse full of those catalogs that were printed months ago.
2. They sent you one because there's more for sale in it than the 3 products made in New Haven.
3. There's still some of those 3 products on the retailer's shelves to be sold. They want you to be an informed consumer.
4. They're keeping up the good will of the name Winchester.
5. They sent it cause they knew you wanted it as a collector's item, right?

Have you looked on the GM and Ford websites? Any giant banners proclaiming all the impending plant closings? I didn't think so.

Nope. Who cares if they close. Are all the retailers sending back the WSM brass? Are all the gunsmiths forced to send back any and all reamers cut for the WSM line?
Someone will offer to buy the name and keep right on going, sure they may not be the same as the previous Winchesters but it will be enough to keep things going. It amazes me as to how much fuss has been created over this.

IV

I really want a Kimber rifle and I really want a 300 Magnum. Problem is I just can't bring myself to buy the 300WSM. I wish Kimber would come out with a 300 Winchester Magnum in their rifles. Then I only have to decide between the Montana or Classic?????????????????????

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
I sent winchester an email, off of their web site a couple of weeks ago, asking for a catalog....

Got it on Friday....

Neither it, or their web site has said a darn thing about them closing their doors....

If they are certain about doing it, you'd think that their web site would mention it now... and that they wouldn't waste the time or the postage to send out catalogs....

They did remove the Model 94 and Model 70 "hot buttons" from the top of the website - you now have to click "All Products" or something like that to find the M70 and M94 info.

I don't think this is any kind of scam - they know how many people would be really pissed at them and that they would lose more business long term for it.

Back to the original subject, I hadn't really considered a WSM before, but the 2 Super Grades I found after the news were a 270WSM and a .25-06 - I decided to buy both since the local store hadn't marked them up a penny since the news came out. They had sold out, but these two were on the way in from the warehouse. Didn't really think about it at the time, but they do seem to be 2 of the hottest selling calibers of all the Winchesters I've seen on the 'net.

Nope. I had no interest in one from the start and I have no interest in one now.

Between my 30-06 and .375 H&H I can hunt the world with no worry about ammo for super duper maxi mags, but that is just me.
No offence, I respect everybody’s opinion.

Roland

Never wanted one before, nothings changed since.

I said I would never buy one but then last year I bought a Mod 70 coyote in 270 WSM and love it. I had thought about sailing or trading it for a lighter weight rifle as I dont think it handles that great for a woods rifle. Then I decided it should make a good beanfield rifle.

Although I think I would be just as happy if it was just a regular 270 win. If it makes a difference in whether I bring home bacon or not then I would rather have something a lot bigger than a 270.

From the range where I buy brass at the 270 wsm is being shot about 2 to 1 over the 300 wsm.I think because the 270 wsm kicks less and it filled an open gap where as the 300 wsm was so close to the 300 win mag it was an over lap.I wonder if the 325 wsm will make it without winchester?Its 8mm bore has never been popular here.The 7mm wsm was a over lap of too many 7mm cartridges.I have seen alot of guys that went back to 300 win mags over the 300 wsm.I have seen alot more happier 270wsm buyers than 300 wsm buyers.I almost always bumped into someone at the range that had a 300 wsm for sale but very few 270 wsms for sale they were keeping them.I have heard alot of pro and con.The wssm will probally be marked down to get rid of them in the winchesters.Its hard to find a new 270 winchester model 70 or a 30-06.The super grade model 70 was almost what use to be the standard grade a few years back.Its funny both savage and remington prought out nice grade wood stock rifles this year the cdl and the american in the savage.they come at a time when its hard to find good wood on a rifle that too pretty to hunt with.

I have had my eye on a Mod 70 Coyote in 25 WSSM at a local shop for some time. After I heard that Winchester was closing the doors I decided that I would look at it again. The shop has had this rifle & another in 243 WSSM for sometime. I noticed that the prices had been removed. I asked a sales person & after receiving the old this is a discontinued rifle & the collectors item speech I found out that they had gone up another hundred or more on the price. I thought the price was high to begin with so I let them keep both rifles. Is this what you guys are seeing? The prices going up?

Since those short-shorts don't fill any real void in any curreent cartridge lineup, I would no sooner purchase one now that USRAC has gone belly-up than I would have before this event......

But since the ammo is produced by Winchester-OLIN, I suspect it will continue to be available.......

quote:

Has Winchester closing the doors changed your mind about buying a wsm or wssm?

No, it hasn't. I have no plans to buy anything chambered in a WSM or WSSM cartridge. Never wanted one; probably never will.

-Bob F.

I was never going to buy a WSM or WSSM, so, no, their reported plant closing had no effect on my plans.

George

I have a Model 70 in 7WSM and it is a superb round as far as I am Concerned. If I can find a 325WSM at a reasonable price I'll probably buy it. Olin will most likely continue to supply ammo and components.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
I was never going to buy a WSM or WSSM, so, no, their reported plant closing had no effect on my plans.

George

+1. Never saw the point, really.


Okie John

quote:

Originally posted by Ricochet:
I agree with Barstooler. I've never had any desire for a WSM. They're answers without a question. Solutions without a problem. Marketing hype to sell new rifles, which apparently didn't do that well enough.

I often wonder what people would say if the Short Mags would have been introduced 50 years ago, and the longer magnums were now introduced. Let's see what the average post by some of you would be:

quote:

Posted by Average Joe AR Guy
"They're an answer without a question, a solution without a problem. Why would I want a cartridge that uses MORE powder, LONGER/HEAVIER actions, LONGER/HEAVIER barrels, AND have that funny "belt" thingy on them, all for a 3% increase in velocity? No Sir, I'll stick with my old reliable Short Mag, thank you very much."

Some of you guys act like any new cartridge introduced is a blatant attempt by corporate robber-barrons to reduce the legacy and importance of your gran-pappies ol' shootin' iron, or force you into sponteneous combustion because you have to look at a few extra boxes on the ammo shelf!

Is there a NEED for new cartridges? Probably not, but, then, they could have stopped in 1906 and not improved much from there, right? Do it cause you any harm to have new cartridges? Absolutely not.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
I really want a Kimber rifle and I really want a 300 Magnum. Problem is I just can't bring myself to buy the 300WSM. I wish Kimber would come out with a 300 Winchester Magnum in their rifles. Then I only have to decide between the Montana or Classic?????????????????????

I spoke with a Kimber guy a couple of weeks ago. He said to look for both Montana's and Classic's in .300 and .338 late this spring. I am watching for the .338 myself. Love the two Kimbers I already have.

TradmarkTexan ----- I agree with you completely. First, my .270 WSM throws a 140 grain bullet an average of 3300 fps so accurately that I don't give a rat's ass what the case looks like. Second, I didn't have the old .270 to start with but had a great deal of respect for it. When it was improved upon, I just couldn't resist myself. Good shooting.

The only WSM that really interested me is the 325. But then again, I am a sucker for 8mm. I Hadn't planed on buying, and probably won't. So the current production stop in winchester rifles hasn't changed my stance on the wsms. In all fairness, I did just buy a Winchester model 70 in .270, but it is a pre 64 that belonged to my grandfather.

FWIW I had ZERO interest in the WSM and WSSM calibers before FN decided to shut down Winchester.

My interest hasn't grown any since the news came out either...

AD

No, I don't think it has changed my mind. Not after my experience with the 270WSM, alongside my 270 Win. All that advertising for an extra 150 fps? Forget it!
If Winchester bet the house on the WSMs and WSSMs then they lost!
None of their 'new' cartridges did anything an exsisting cartridge didn't do. Another case of marketing getting away from reality. Just another fad!
Having gotten that rant out of my system, I don't think the 300WSM will go away anytime soon, there are quite a few around here, in ultralight rifles, and they seem to get the job done.
JMHO

Cheers, Dave.

Well said TrademarkTexan!! It is funny how so many people feel threatened by the WSM and WSSM. These rounds just plain perform, that is why we are buying them.

I with Trademark Texan. I think a bunch of
this WSM bashing is inspired by traditionalists
feeling the need to validate their choices in rifles.

I own a bunch of "proven" chamberings, but I
also see improvements in the WSM, over the
old favorite magnums. First, the WSM
headspaces off the shoulder, and not some silly
belt. The belt concept never made sense to the
engineer in me. They are short actions, and
other than the 350 Remington Magnum, they
were the first magums in short actions. That
is a nice feature for light sporting rifles, and
whether it matters to hunters or not, a short
action rifle has more potential accuracy.
The case design more efficiently burns powder,
over longer narrower cases. OK, so what does
this mean to the average joe? It means they
have a new choice, that has merit. What it means
to me was, I was in the market for a .30 cal
magnum. I was trying to decide if it would
be a 300 WM, or a 300 WSM. Then one night,
at a DU Banquent, my mind was made up for
me. I won a Howa 1500, in 300 WSM. I quickly
ordered dies, and components, loaded some
some ammo, and hit the range. To make a
long story short, I will never own a 300 WM.

I have loaded 300 WM ammo, and helped
several friends with their 300 WMs, and that
is enough to keep me firmly in the 300 WSM
camp.

A young hunter/shooter came to me, and asked
my recommendation for a deer, and the
occasional elk hunting, rifle. I suggested he
consider a 270 WSM, along with a couple
of other "traditional" choices. Being a young
man, looking for "new" choices, he purchased
the 270 WSM, and reported back, after his
first elk hunt, that he had excellent results
with his rifle. He shot his bull, with one shot,
which was a bang, drop, and he finished off
an elk, for a elderly hunting companion,
that had made a marginal shot with his
300 WM. He was proud of his rifle, and it
was drawing interest around elk camp.

So fine, many of you don't see the point of
the WSM line, and you are just fine with
what you already have in the safe. But for the
"new" shooters that want the "latest" technology,
or the old guy that just wants a new and
different gun, the WSM fits the bill. It is
not going away, despite all of the predictions
to the contrary. It will be a parent case for
many wildcats, and it will out live me, and all
that have posted here.

Squeeze

P.S. To the original question about FN closing
the Winchester plant having an effect on the
WSM line. Since Remington, Savage, Kimber,
Howa, TIkka, and CZ(to name some), chamber
rifles in WSM, I think this will have NO effect on
the longevity of the WSM line...I wouldn't count
out the Winchester M70 line yet. If someone
brought back Winchester quality, and a CRF M70,
with a competitive price, there would be money
to be made. I feel certain that some business
types are studying this possibility as we make
these posts.

Nobody and I mean NOBODY who reloads for a belted magnum cartridge actually sets their sizing die to make the cartridge headspace on anything but the shoulder.
So the fact that there is or isn't a "decorative" belt on the cartridge is irrelevant.

The simple fact is that the new shorter magnums do nothing that the older magnums didn't already do,
and do pretty well.


It IS marketing the people working for the compaines making them want you to run out and buy the newest thing because they get to sell you another $550-$800 rifle (or more)

Go ahead, I'll just buy the really nice 338Mag you'll trade in to afford your new 325WSM...

The WSM/SAUM was a shallow and tranparent attempt to convert firearms, nearly the ultimate "Durable goods" (an economic term) into a "consumer item" (another economic term) and the people who ran out and traded up fell for the scam (which is exactly what it was and is) Hook, Line & Sinker.

a "durable good" is an item a consumer purchases
that is expected to last several years (I don't remember offhand if it's three or five years), firearms frequently last in service for a century or more... but if by switching cartridge
designs you can make the older ones obsolete....
Does anyone get this?

To some degree I like the results, many people have traded in perfectly good conventional magnums
on these new "wonder rifles" making it a buyers market for their 20year old hardly shot magnums that were built when the factory workers gave a rat's ass about build quality.
I've also seen quite a few of the new Short Mags traded in when people realized that a LIGHTWEIGHT rifle in a real magnum caliber kicks a lot harder...

The thing is the companies can't make nearly as much money selling rifles to new buyers as they can selling additional rifles or REPLACEMENT rifles to older shooters

to the firearms companies the caliber of the rifle a new buyer purchases is irrelevant, a sale of a 300WSM doesn't make them more money than selling that same new shooter a 300WinMag.
(And with the settling of the Jameson Lawsuit
it makes them less)
What they wanted was to sell a new rifle to a shooter who already HAS a 300WinMag, someone who probably wouldn't simply buy another new 300WinMag. and that market share they were shooting for is rediculously thin...

Self-diulsion is a powerful thing.

Winchester is in trouble atleast partially because they THOUGHT that a new cartridge line would get everyone to run out and buy new rifles, they thought wrong. some people have, but not nearly enough.

Remember the quote attributed to P.T.Barnum?
"There's a sucker born every minute and two to take him?

Well it seems that there are only half as many suckers as Winchester and remington needed.

Now, I'm not saying there is anything specifically wrong
with the WSM's. What I'm saying is that the company wasn't depending on new shooters buying their new caliber rifles, they were obviously hoping that many OLD shooters would jump onto the WSM bandwagon and while a few have
an equal number of old shooters have been snatching up the rifles that are being traded in to finance the New WSM's

The private purchase arms market in the United States
is not only the largest in the world but larger than the rest of the world combined.
But even with that the slice of that (very large) pie that Winchester got wasn't nearly as large as they what they had gambled on getting.

All the zelous preaching by the converts touting the advertizing hyperbole doesn't turn a new cartridge
into anything other than "just another cartridge"

What does the 300WSM do that a 300WinMag doesn't do?
What does a 300WSM do that a 300WeatherbyMag doesn't do?
What does the 300WSM do that a 308Norma, 300H&H doesn't do?

It doesn't feed as well...

Remember that Pindell&Palmisano created their cartridge for use in single shot rifles

Making the new cartridges short, fat and with sharp shoulders doesn't mean that they are going to be automatically benchrest accurate just because it shares proportions with Ferris Pindell's and Louis Palmisano's brainchild. the shape of the cartridge is only a tiny part of what makes benchrest rifles and thooters so accurate.
In short the shape of the WSM/SAUM cartridges is a shamless gimick, and little more....

It also make it harder to fit as many of them into a magazine.

Younger MBA's working for Winchester and remington were depending on the "early adpoters" to run out in droves and buy the newest thing that they were selling.

Their flaw was in completely misjudging their buying public.
Gun people are not typically the first person on their block
to have run out and bought an LCD watch when they first appeared in the mid 70's, nor were they the first people on their block or in their office to have bought a Cell phone, Laptop computer, PalmPilot pocket sized GPS or a rifle scope with a built in digital camera, or any other new gadget.


Lastly it never occours to people that buying that CZ, Howa
Sako, Vanguard, etc is part of the reason that FN is closing winchesters doors.
People buy imports then whine about the american company
going out of buisness....


AllanD

It's not about the cartridge, it's about the rifles that chamber them. Winchesters closing has no affect on my thought about the WSM's, my next rifle will be a Kimber Montanna 300 WSM. I've handled the M-70 and Ruger 77 in 300 WSM and wasn't interested in them, too heavy and 22" tube too short to make the wsm do it's thing. In the Kimber I get a light rifle that falls between the 30-06 and 300 win mag, and thats a good thing.

The 300 WSM has been very successful because it first off it is offered in lighter rifle than the 300 win mag, shoots bullets sufficiently flat for hunting situations, and has proven to be very accurate.

Offering a std size and weight action in 300 WSM doesn't make sense, but in a 7# scoped rig, and pushing "premium" 165-168's @ 3100 fps, I'd say what can't it do for the tasks it would be used for?

quote:

Lastly it never occours to people that buying that CZ, Howa
Sako, Vanguard, etc is part of the reason that FN is closing winchesters doors.
People buy imports then whine about the american company
going out of buisness....

Yes, I agree that is part of the reason Winchester is having problems, but if the WSM's are so bad, why does CZ, Sako, Howa, and Vanguard all sell rifles chambered for WSM?

Guess I'm just a "delusional old sucker" because I have a 270 WSM and a 300 WSM!!! Didn't realize I was so stupid in my old age! Maybe gun manufacturers should have just called it a day after the 30-40 Krag (yea, I have one of these too). Did I buy them because they are better than the 270 Win. or the 300 Win.(No, I also have these fine calibers in my safe). I bought them because I wanted a lightweight, good handling, and accurate gun with the ballistics of the others. I got that and then some; just .02 from an old "satisfied sucker". Squeeze, I think your "right on"; but there I go thinking again!