The Accurate Reloading Forums
Does anyone still believe????
30 October 2011, 19:51
CrazyhorseconsultingDoes anyone still believe????
That for the medium bore rifles, bullets being pushed at 2200 f.p.s. up to 2800 f.p.s muzzle velocity will readily kill game if placed accurately????
Even the rocks don't last forever.
30 October 2011, 20:18
rnoviOh goodness no. .30-30's bounce off Deer and black bear dine on hunters stupid enough to use a .35 Rem regularly in the east.
And let's not talk about the abomination called the .35 Whelen with 250 gr. bullets at 2400! Can you imagine the arrogance of some guy NAMING a cartridge after himself??? And he's DEAD! Big success THAT was!
I mean, Hey, it's your life.
(PS: LOVING my .375 H&H with 300's at 2450.)
Regards,
Robert
******************************
H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer!
30 October 2011, 20:27
vapodogquote:
Can you imagine the arrogance of some guy NAMING a cartridge after himself???
Actually it was named after Whelen by others as a tribute and not named by Whelen hiumself.
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30 October 2011, 20:32
scottfromdallasquote:
Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
That for the medium bore rifles, bullets being pushed at 2200 f.p.s. up to 2800 f.p.s muzzle velocity will readily kill game if placed accurately????
I am an absolute believer. No magnums and cup and core all the way for 90% of my hunting! Give me a ballistic tip, a hot core, an interlock, power point or cor-lokt and I will be just fine.
30 October 2011, 20:53
rnoviquote:
Originally posted by vapodog:
quote:
Can you imagine the arrogance of some guy NAMING a cartridge after himself???
Actually it was named after Whelen by others as a tribute and not named by Whelen hiumself.
It was a weak attempt at sarcasm on an early Sunday morn. Please forgive me.
Regards,
Robert
******************************
H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer!
30 October 2011, 21:19
dopeydaveI believe,
dont own a magnum anything and lead filled bullets are still getting it done.
30 October 2011, 21:30
Wstrnhuntrquote:
Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
That for the medium bore rifles, bullets being pushed at 2200 f.p.s. up to 2800 f.p.s muzzle velocity will readily kill game if placed accurately????
Dont you read the gun rags? Dont you know those old cartridges need to be stricken...??
AK-47
The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like.
31 October 2011, 00:50
wasbeemanNope! It's got to be a light for calibre magic bullet driven at warp speed. And only rifles stocked with a designer McSquirrely stock will shoot straight.
Aim for the exit hole
31 October 2011, 02:01
metricquote:
Originally posted by dopeydave:
I believe,
dont own a magnum anything and lead filled bullets are still getting it done.
+1
M
31 October 2011, 02:18
rnoviquote:
Originally posted by dopeydave:
I believe,
dont own a magnum anything and lead filled bullets are still getting it done.
HEATHEN! HEATHEN!
Regards,
Robert
******************************
H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer!
31 October 2011, 03:03
jeffeossoquote:
Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
That for the medium bore rifles, bullets being pushed at 2200 f.p.s. up to 2800 f.p.s muzzle velocity will readily kill game if placed accurately????
yep .. and better with a good bullet
31 October 2011, 05:54
ted thornYes I do
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31 October 2011, 06:36
Caretakermy 35 remington barely makes into your category, but I take animals every year with it and have never had to make a follow up shot.
Never follow a bad move with a stupid move.
31 October 2011, 06:44
CrazyhorseconsultingThat is okay, you get the idea though.
Even the rocks don't last forever.
31 October 2011, 07:00
Mike_DettorreI don't think I own a rifle that has a muzzle velocity over 2750...
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
31 October 2011, 07:21
ColeKSince when do medium bore bullets at moderate velocities bounce off game?
I've been killing game with medium bore bullets at moderate velocities for almost 50 years, so I don't think I'm going to change.
31 October 2011, 08:23
Blacktailerquote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
I don't think I own a rifle that has a muzzle velocity over 2750...
Come on, Mike! Anything will go over 2750 with enough Blue Dot or Unique!
Have gun- Will travel
The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark
31 October 2011, 23:14
BISCUTI've heard the grossly underpowerd 35 REM also bounces off deer and black bear. HAHA!!
01 November 2011, 08:23
wympleCor-lokts are sooooooo wimpy...
01 November 2011, 09:43
carpetman1If you use medium bore at 2200-2800 you might luck out and kill something--probably smaller animals only on rare occasions. But with a magnum you can hit them anywhere and it's instant lights out. If you don't hit the kill zone it doesn't matter, magnums take care of it. They increase the size of the kill zone. They reach way way out there too. If you use premium bullets they penetrate deeper and take care of bad shots and increase the size of the kill zone.. If you use both magnum and premium just shoot in the general direction don't worry about even hitting them and it's instant lights out. Can't think of any shot you'd need to pass on--range,angle doesn't matter.. That's my understanding of things from reading the internet. I haven't experienced it first hand though.
01 November 2011, 22:45
Atkinsonthere is no simple answer to your question.
Depends on the terrian, how far you will shoot, and the size of the animal you are shooting to name a few..
I use premium bullets most of the time except perhaps on deer and pronghorn. I use bigger guns and premium bullets on elk on up. I am not going to risk bullet failure on a elk hunt for the differnce in 25 cents on a bullet..
I have been around a hell of a long time and I have seen a lot of bullet failures and those failures were invaribly with cup and core bullets, the Rem. Corelokt being the exception, but I have seen it fail to penetrate on going south shots on elk on two seperate ocassions..
I'll take a Nosler partition, and I like 2700 to 2800 FPs also. I'm not fond of 2200 FPS as thats a bit slow unless the bore is big.
However, your question is flawed You just can't have it one way as you asked, it just depends on too many things. 2200 FPS in a 30-30 on deer and broadside elk at under 200 yards is Ok and it works with good bullet placement and proper bullet construction, but not at 400 yards or taking a Texas heart shot in the thick Selway black timber, but a 458 Win with a 500 gr. bullet at 2200 will take an elk to the ground in the selways black timber...
I still like premium bullets, its cheap insurance and I like a little extra velocity, its cheap insurance..I like to put elk down quickly since they tend to go down into some really bad places to die, and trust me Idaho has some really bad places to get an elk out of. My 338, 9.3x62, or 375 with 300 gr. woodleighs sticks there nose in the pine needles on a going away shot, usually at the shot, and if not they don't many tracks..
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
01 November 2011, 23:04
kjjm4I'm not a fan of velocities over 2900 fps for use on medium/large game. When I need more power, I tend to think it's time for a bigger/heavier bullet.
02 November 2011, 06:35
CrazyhorseconsultingMy quetion may be flawed, but under normal hunting conditions for the AVERAGE hunter, you know the person, 1 hunt a year, don't really matter the species, shots at 200 yards or less.
Notice I did not say anything about the caliber being used or the type conditions folks that hunt a lot encounter.
Just typical hunters under normal conditions.
Personally, I use Barnes bullets for my hunting, I like the job they do. But, while I am probably not as old or as experienced as you, I have been killing stuff for 40+ years and like you, I can remember the days Before, the premium bullet movement.
Have animals gotten harder to kill since the 40's-50's-60's and early 70's, the days before the premium bullets. Maybe the ones you hunt have, but the ones I hunt have not.
So really my question is not flawed at all, because people are still killing stuff with 30-30's and 45-70's and other calibers using cast bullets, or do you believe that is not happening?
As for the comment about animals not making many tracks after being shot with a premium bullet, a few years back, I hit a small 8 point Texas white tail buck right in the heart at about 40 yards with a 250 grain Barnes "X" flat base out of my 375 H&H, and that little sucker covered over 60 yards in about 5 seconds. When I cut open the rib cage, the whole top third of its heart was gone. What was left of it was not attached to anything.
Up until this past Feb. I was able to do some cull hunts on a ranch in west Texas for white tail does with 117 grain remington Core-loct RN bullets out of my wife's 257 Robert's. Exit holes about the size of a 50 cent piece, maybe a silver dollar, the deer would haul ass 20 or 30 yards and pile up. Those were remington factory loads and I ran out of them. This year I was using 115 grain Barnes triple shoks and the results qwere not a whole heck of a lot different.
Even the rocks don't last forever.
Bobby
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The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri
02 November 2011, 13:15
p dog shooterI have killed a lot of stuff with bullets traveling in the above range of vel.
But then shooting stuff at over 3000fps is fun also.
02 November 2011, 19:33
temmiquote:
Originally posted by rnovi:
Oh goodness no. .30-30's bounce off Deer and black bear dine on hunters stupid enough to use a .35 Rem regularly in the east.
And let's not talk about the abomination called the .35 Whelen with 250 gr. bullets at 2400! Can you imagine the arrogance of some guy NAMING a cartridge after himself??? And he's DEAD! Big success THAT was!
I mean, Hey, it's your life.
(PS: LOVING my .375 H&H with 300's at 2450.)
I have seen a 30-30 bounce off a deer.
02 November 2011, 20:11
shortgunA fellow on another site says a 30-06 will not penetrate a bears thick hair and hide but a 12 gauge slug is just right for stopping bear charges. Seems that that ole 30 cal round must be goin a mite too fast for bear eh!
My last 4 deer have fallen to my 405 win with a 300 grain Hornady sp loafin along at 2000 fps.
Seems to work for me.
02 November 2011, 20:17
JonPLived in Europe for years. We are definitely velocity crazy in this country. I suspect it has more to do with marketing/sales than with substance. The MV/ME you describe is very typical of the popular Euro cartridges...very effective inside 300 yds. A lot of hogs, red deer, moose, etc are shot every year with such loads.
You hear a lot more talk in Europe about limiting meat loss/destruction. Shot well, game seems to be more salable with these slower cartridges.
02 November 2011, 20:24
scottfromdallasAmericans are too caught up in the Kinetic Energy BS. Kinetic Energy squares velocity so everyone thinks faster is better. If kinetic energy squared mass, everyone would be buying bigger bullets.
02 November 2011, 22:18
sam308Been killing deer for years with a 165gr. interlock at about 2650fps. Works pretty damn good.
In a little over a week I will check again just to make sure it still works. I have even been doing this (GASP!!!) with a lever action rifle.
02 November 2011, 23:51
jdunlapmoYup, there are a few believers left out here...
I even load 140's to about 2800 in my 270. Worked just fine on the last three antelope and the last mule deer I shot in Wyoming, and has never failed on a whitetail. No need to push them at light speed, and no need for a premium bullet on medium sized game. A Sierra GK and a moderate velocity get 'er done for me on deer-sized game!
I'm getting ready to put together a 338-06 on a Savage action soon (accumulating the parts now), and plan on running 215-225 grain bullets at around 2650-2700 out of it. Should be perfect for Elk.
I sold my 300 Magnum two years ago and haven't looked back!
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths."
03 November 2011, 00:21
Austin Hunter8x57mm Mauser with a 200 grain Accubond from a 20" barrel at around 2,400 fps at muzzle.
"Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan
"Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians."
Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness.
03 November 2011, 19:14
PeglegWow! Several responses to a dumb question.
The only easy day is yesterday!
04 November 2011, 08:02
CrazyhorseconsultingWhat is so dumb about it?????
Even the rocks don't last forever.
04 November 2011, 10:02
Alberta CanuckThey sure will!
Unfortuntely, they also still require me to actually go hunting, find the game, carry the rifle, and pull the trigger!
Oh well. Just one of those crosses I guess I'll have to bear.
My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.
04 November 2011, 14:18
PhatmanWell every rifle I own fires a cartridge that was designed over 100 years ago, so I guess I still believe.
Cheers, John
Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt
04 November 2011, 19:02
citoriI don't believe it for a second.
Next you'll try to covince me the .30-06 is useful for hunting in the U.S.!
Tanzania in 2006! Had 141 posts on prior forum as citori3.
05 December 2011, 02:51
44magLeoThe only problem I have seen with bullets traveling over 3000 fps is that you have to let them run off to 400 yards before you shoot them. Any closer and too much meat damaged.
Leo
The only way to know if you can do a thing is to do it.
05 December 2011, 16:51
Snake JenkinsNow every one knows that a bullet travelng in that velocity range is only good for rabbits and squirrels... And a 35 Remington will barely dent a beer can. You have to use the new super blasters to hunt deer I thought every one knew that
05 December 2011, 17:00
Norwegianwoodsquote:
Originally posted by 44magLeo:
The only problem I have seen with bullets traveling over 3000 fps is that you have to let them run off to 400 yards before you shoot them. Any closer and too much meat damaged.
Leo
That all depends on the bullet you are using
I see very little meat damage on all kinds of deer I shoot with a 120 grain Swift A-frame bullet at 3150 f/s in my 6.5-06.
It can go faster than 3200, but I am not bothered with more speed in it
