In these days of bigger cases and more powder, where does the line get crossed? In other words, where does the gain get erased by pain? In my case, I can handle a 300 Weatherby and 338 Winchester, but the added recoil of the ultra mags seem excessive in comparison the the added velocity. Of course I'm talking of normal rifle weights and no muzzle brakes. Just wondering what others think.

Thats a question that can only be answered by each individual. The same debate could be used for the difference in velocity between the 06 and the 300 win mag. For any modest gain in velocity (say up to 200 fps) it really doesnt make a lot of difference to the animal and doesnt flatten the rounds travel very much out to about 300 yards.

quote:

In my case, I can handle a 300 Weatherby and 338 Winchester, but the added recoil of the ultra mags seem excessive in comparison the the added velocity.

I own two 300ultramags and have owned a 300weatherby.I find my 300 ultramags actually are more comfortable to shoot than my 300weatherby was due to them having more weight in the barrel.

When ever the question of recoil comes up,
I point out that the shape and fit of the rifle is just as important as the caliber.
Of corse calibers like the .243 and the .257 roberts recoil very little and have no place in this diacussion.
Fortunitly I am a fairly avarage size guy and most factory stocks fit me well. My factory model 70 in .338 win is not bad to shoot for 20 rounds or so. i might put a limb saver on it and see if I can shoot it more then.
As for how much power do you need ?
I bought my 7mm STW for extream range hunting.
It did not take to long for me to discover that I had no buisness shooting at game beyond about 400 yards and then only under perfect conditions. 300 yards is a long way away but I am prety sure I could bring an elk down with my .338 WIN with most angels presented.
I think to many guys go out and buy a ultra mag and a range estimating scope and think they are suddenly expert shots.
I know there are some who have the time and live in an area where they can shoot every day and can probably take advantage of the power in an ultra mag.
I live in the city and simply do not have the time or a place to practice near enough to my home to gain the skill to use anything more powerfull than my .338...tj3006

It's undeniable that magnums have certain advantages over "standard" cartridges. The reverse is also true!

I think it takes honesty with one's self to know where to draw the line with recoil comfort and that line will be different with everyone.

It's also true that it's a bit vogue to criticize and poke fun at those who chose cartridges like the 300 RUM. Many have no business using the cartridge, but there are those that do!

I have several friends who are genuinely comfortable shooting the likes of the 338 RUM and would be fully justified in using one in even a farily light rifle. I happen to know myself well enough to know I couldn't do good work with a 338 RUM unless it had a fairly heavy barrel, decent stock, and weight of at least nine and a half pounds. Since I don't want to hunt with a rifle like that I stick with a lightweight 30-06.

Let every man reach his own conclusion's!

It's not just power, it's the gun.....weight, handling style, and personal tastes and issues.

For me the decision is easy......when the M-70 featherweight couldn't be made in the new cartridge it was too much.

Actually, I've back pedaled all the way to the .30-06 and I'm confident that I've actually gained and not lost in the total package.

I have two .300 mags to sell (a .300 H&H and a Win Mag) Very few folks are good enough shooters that can actually make use of the extra velocity and we've been fed a snow job for a very long time about "more is better"

Stick 180 grain Swift A-Frames in a 22" M-70 Featherweight .30-06 at 2,800'/sec and you're ready for anything that's labeled "big game".

If I ever need more (Dangerous game) I have a .404 Jeffery.

We all have our limits and we shouldn't be forcing them on others....make your point about your personal preference and let the cards fall as they may. If you're a very strong husky guy that don't mind heavy rifles and can toterate the recoil and good enough to be able to make use of the extra range then maybe the RUMs are for you..

I know for a fact that they're simply not for me.

quote:

Stick 180 grain Swift A-Frames in a 22" M-70 Featherweight .30-06 at 2,800'/sec and you're ready for anything that's labeled "big game".

I couldn't agree with you more.

In my mind the reason for a magnum is to push heavy bullets at the same velocities as the smaller cartridge.

Right. wrong or indeferant I don't even bother working up 165 gr loads on my mag 30's. I have the mags so I can use 200 and 220 grain bullets and not loose velocity. Light loads are 180 gr pills. Recoil is going to be more when I am using more powder and a heavier bullet, one of those laws of physics that can't be broken.

When I need to crank up performance level above that a bigger bore is the only direction I consider, there is a lot to be said about frontal section.

quote:

Originally posted by cobra:

quote:

Stick 180 grain Swift A-Frames in a 22" M-70 Featherweight .30-06 at 2,800'/sec and you're ready for anything that's labeled "big game".

I couldn't agree with you more.

How about "big game" like Grizzly?

For sake of discussion, wouldn't a 200gr. Swift A-Frame in a 24" M-70 Sporter .300 Win. Mag. at 2,950'/sec be a better alternative for all 'big game', including Grizzly? Assuming one could handle the recoil.

For me the line is around the 35 Whelen/9.3x62, and it gets revised downward a little every few years.


Okie John

quote:

Originally posted by CanadianLefty:

quote:

Originally posted by cobra:

quote:

Stick 180 grain Swift A-Frames in a 22" M-70 Featherweight .30-06 at 2,800'/sec and you're ready for anything that's labeled "big game".

I couldn't agree with you more.

How about "big game" like Grizzly?

For sake of discussion, wouldn't a 200gr. Swift A-Frame in a 24" M-70 Sporter .300 Win. Mag. at 2,950'/sec be a better alternative for all 'big game', including Grizzly? Assuming one could handle the recoil.

CL, I believe vapodog was commenting on general big game hunting. Grizzlies and brown bears are into another category, dangerous game. That's a whole other issue.

I have to agree that is a question only the individual knows the answer to. I hear all of the time about the 338 RUM having a hell of a kick etc. I find mine to be very comfortable, at the same time I can't stand a friend of mines 7mm Mag because it kicks like a mule! I think it has alot to do with stock design, weight (obviously) as well as the cartridge, I often describe the kick of my RUM as a large, heavy push whereas the 7 mag is a quick violent snap to my shoulder.....go figure...

IV

Those big bears have alot of mussel to get threw
that where those RUMs can do there job. I own two of those RUMS and I like to hunt those big bears.

I look at the super mags as sepcialized chamberings for those that want serious long range rigs, ie 400-600 yd shots. I don't think the average hunter has the shooting skills to take advantage of such rigs, but for those that do, they have their place.

My personal thought is, if I want more gun, then I increase bullet dia and weight, not muzzle velocity. I've also found that when you move up to the bigger bores, ie 458 Lott and such, the small and medium bores simply don't have that much recoil, even they hotter numbers.

quote:

For sake of discussion, wouldn't a 200gr. Swift A-Frame in a 24" M-70 Sporter .300 Win. Mag. at 2,950'/sec be a better alternative for all 'big game', including Grizzly? Assuming one could handle the recoil

I got an M-70 .300 Win Mag stainless classic with 26" barrel I'll sell ya.

Apparantly you would like it more than I.

I like the .300 RUM but it for me to take advantage of the extra power it gives I require it in a certain type of rifle......in my case a rem 700 Police heavy barrel gun with badger rings and base, canjar trigger and Mark 4 6.5-20x50 leupold scope............................what this means is it's an over the bonnet of the ute varmint gun for bigger stuff......this is my thoughts at any rate.

I do not consider a .300 Win. to be a better Grizzly rifle than an .'06, using exactly the same bullets driven at optimum velocities for each cartridge. The .300 is better for Elk, maybe Moose and possibly Goats, Sheep and long range Mowitch, I think that the .06 is better for Grizzlies.

Before someone goes ballistic, I have both sufficient experience and adequate intelligence to make this statement. It is based on the fact that the .'06 holds one additonal round (in most hunting rifles), is adequately powerful for the task AND is easier to quickly shoot well to place the all-important first shot with great precision as well as to recover from recoil to get a rapid second shot into the bear.

Many people use rifles in bear country that are not really optimal for Grizzlies, IMHO and I have seen too many older guys with many bear kills and one well-used .30-06 to ever doubt it's worth. I consider the 9.3x62, the .35 Whelen, the .338-06 and the .30-06 to be about ideal for most hunters in Grizzly country and much better for most guys than magnums of any sort.

Actually, most of the best hunters I have known used the plain, old .30-06 and a 4x scope without any apparent handicap.

quote:

I got an M-70 .300 Win Mag stainless classic with 26" barrel I'll sell ya.

If it is in left hand, I will make you an offer. I'd have you ship it to a designated FFL export agent in CA or MT and I will handle the paperwork from there. Thanks

Kutenay, interesting hypothesis. I generally agree that IF the '06 holds an additional round and IF the recoil is more controllable to the particular shooter, then what you say holds. The 30-06 has certainly taken more Grizzly than the 300 win. mag. given the sheer numbers of '06 rifles out there compared to the .300 win. mag.

In my case, I discount the extra round as I would have a mag box designed to hold an extra round anyways. I also feel that given adequate practice, I would handle the .300 win. mag. just as well as any 30-06, maybe better as my rifle would weigh more than a 30-06. But that is just me. Given the average hunter out there, you are probably right, as usual.

Not to hijack the thread, I take it Kutenay that you'd prefer the .338 Win. Mag. or 30-06 over the .300 Win. Mag.as an all-purpose magnum cartridge for Canadian hunts (Everything from sheep, moose, deer, elk, goats, Griz....)?

quote:

If it is in left hand,

Sorry.....right hand.

Kutenay,

I know a lot of guys think I'm nuts for packing my 7x57 around in Grizzly country but your reasoning above is exactly why I do. Mine is a round/rifle combination that you have done a excellent job of describing.

I do have one 30 Mag, built on a 30-06, only rechambered that fits the above bill, but it is harder to handle than the 7x57 above. If I needed to get off 2-3 shots quickly I know I won't be able to match that with the mag. ( I have timed myself, slower, less accurate in a hurry ).

I know my limitations.

Another note on grizzlies that I keep harping on, frontal section and SD's with premium expanding bullets. This are real meaningful issues in bear rounds. And I really don't give a hoot how a bullet works at 150 yards, its in the 20-10 yard zone I am worried about.

BTY how did your hunt go? I'm about 10 days out.

I think what gets left out of this discussion a lot is a distinction between recoil preference and recoil tolerance.

I have no trouble shooting 2 or 3 boxes of full boat 9.3x62 loads into tight little groups. However, just because I can handle the recoil doesn't mean it is going to be my first choice for deer, black bear, or perhaps even elk.

Shooting the most gun you can handle seems a bit like tunnel vision: it focusses only on power at the expense of other potentially important varaibles. Once I have "enough" gun (whatever that is) I find that other variables such as cost (of reloading supplies), noise, weight, length, mag capacity, muzzle lift, scope and stock durability (relative to recoil), the absence of a muzzle break (back to length and noise), and barrel wear (I like to practice a lot) all start to be much more relevant features (to me at least) than a incremental increase in raw power. JMO...

.

For the vast majority of hunters, 400yds is our limit. I have magnums & use them but find that I would rather go up in bore size vs going up in cartridge size for a given bore dia. (ie, for an elk rifle, I'ld rather go to a .338wm vs a .300wm if I was stepping up from an 06). I just don't see the point of buying a 7mmRUM to push a 140gr bullet ultra fast, for 400yds shots it just doesn't offer much gain over a 7rm or even a .280 (JMO).

I've seen the light, so I've sold my Magnums!

Grizzlies aren't on my social calendar, so my power reasoning goes something like this:
- Anything else I shoot will fall down if I hit them in the boiler room;
- If I don't hit them in the boiler room, they won't fall down, regardless what I'm shooting.

My flat trajectory reasoning is similar:
- I shot a mule deer once at 429 downhill paces with a .270 Winchester, and it fell down.
- I now realize how much luck was involved with that shot under field conditions and don't intend to take another one like it.

I sold my .300 Win Mag, cases, and dies, and don't plan to replace them.

BTW, my 6-pound Ruger RL .270 pummels me much worse than the 300 Mag, so occasionally I wonder if I sold the right rifle... At least it's easier to carry...

Jaywalker

[QUOTE]For the vast majority of hunters, 400yds is our limit.QUOTE]
Hmmn... If you are talking about the serious riflemen who post here at accuratereloading that might be true BUT if the deer rifle sight-in days at our local gun club are any indication the vast majority of the general population reach their limit somewhere between 100 and 200 yards. Good hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by mb:
Hmmn... If you are talking about the serious riflemen who post here at accuratereloading that might be true BUT if the deer rifle sight-in days at our local gun club are any indication the vast majority of the general population reach their limit somewhere between 100 and 200 yards. Good hunting!

200 yds MAX. I watched a guy shooting his 300 something-something at the 200 yd gong (the one the size of a trashcan lid that is usually used only for revolvers). Fortunately he had a 4-16x scope; nothing less would have worked I'm sure. After 4-5 tries he finally hit it. He left seeming quite pleased with himself.

Mag Mania is caused by too much reliance on kenetic energy as a factor in effective kills. Sure, there is a threshold of KE that should be required for every species of game, but beyond that basic threshold its all about sectional density and trajectory. We are not trying to knock animals down, just drill a decent sized wound channel through the vitals. "Magnum" is better defined by simply multiplying the sectional density time the MV...any number over 800 is at the threshold of magnum, and over 900 its a blockbuster.

A 220 gr '06 at 2500 fps gets you 825, and buddy that's a magnum. Any 30 cal 180 grainer will have to do 3056 fps to make the same number, and that's a 300 win Mag or equivalent.

Don't agree? Say you are staring down a Griz at 50 paces and you get a 300 Winnie with one 180 grainer or an '06 with one 220 grainer. Both are JSPs. Which would you choose?

quote:

where does the line get crossed?

This is a very subjective and personal line.

For me personally, I think most of the magnums are overboard and not needed most of the time.

I am in the camp, that bullet placement is way more important than KE. Especially since most of the extra KE ends up in the ground after the bullet has passed through the critter.

I have come to the conclusion that for:
Calibers < 27 the 308 case is all that is needed.
27-338 caliber works just fine on a 06 based case.

When you start talking about big bores, I just don't have the experience. But a 375 H&H is about the limit for me.

I have shot some 416's (REM & RIGBY), plus 458's (Win and Lott). I just don't consider those to be pleasant or fun. I would personally reserve those for a big planned African DG trip, but then a 375 would probably do the job.

quote:

1. Do they "kill better" shot for shot than their non magnum similar bored kin ?
2. Are they efficient?
3. Is then the added rifle based issues needed to make a magnum operate ( long action / long barrel ) worth the effort ?

Alf,

Your questions are actually leading questions ... the short answer to all of them is NO. Magnums are intended for longer reach, but as impact velocity is critical for bullet performance with soft bullets and we hunt 80% of the time under 200 yards, standard calibers are my preferred choice. The magnum must be used at longer ranges, unless the stronger expanding monometal bullets are used as a matter of choice.

Classics like the 7 x 57, 30-06 and 9.3 x 62 will linger on till the end of time here in SA. That said, I still like my 300 H&H for shots over 200 yds when I go the Kalahari for some Gemsbok. The super magnums, with all their negatives, are bound to become extinct as more and more people regain their sanity. I also played/dabbled around with light weight bullets (130 grainers) in my 270 Win and sold it some 4 years ago and replaced it with a 300 H&H.

The probelm is we have some people behind counters that sell rifles that give the wrong advice to novice hunters and sell what they have instead of of being truthful - I have heard this several times.

When we talk about calibers it inevitably also leads to shooting higher SD bullets ... but as you know this is a HOT subject. Shooting 175 gr Barnes-X bulets in a 7 mm Mauser will make you realise that you have a different gun in your hands as opposed to 140 gr Softs.

Take care
Chris

Perhaps my experience at gun stores has been on the other end of the bell curve, but in most stores I have shopped- big stores, small stores, specialty rifle stores in Seattle, Spokane, Boise and many parts in between, I do not see ANYONEnwho has tried to sell one of the big magnums. IN fact most of the time they are trying to sell someone an '06 or .270 because they only stock those (as well as only stock ammo for those). In particulaiar I have heard many a sales pitch explain how ammo is a little tougher to find etc.

Are gun store clerks around the rest of the world really that inspired to sell us "the new lazer MAGNUM?" I don't see it here......

IV

A strong point could be made for me having Mag Mania, if one looked into my gun safes. How about .416 Rigby and Rem, .358 STA, .340 Wby, .338 Lapua, .300 Winny, 7mm STW, .257 Wby. However a strong case could be made for me being a tradional shooter when examining my collection. .30-30, .308, and many others. Hell, I like them all, and I don't critize those who choose one or the other. The trick is, shoot what you have, then you can shoot anything you want to. If you want to be in Mag Mania territory, just shoot them enough and there you will be. When you get proficient at your shooting then you will enter a land of high performance you never knew existed before. Good shooting.

I think the latest trend toward more traditional calibers of late (past 4-5) years is largely due to the plethora of excellent bullets available today. The new monometals with and without bands as well as the large selection of bonded bullets also w/wo bands has really changed the the performance expectationsin these calibers. I have also found myself reaching for one of my '06s or my
6.5X55 a lot more often than the .338WM when hunting game that is not dangerous. What do some of you think?

Geronimo

There was a time I had to have the latest, biggest, fastest, baddest calibers. I worshipped FPS and FPE.

Figured those old guys just didn't understand. Got rid of my 30-06. Saw no need for it with all the other guns I had.

Now I've come full circle. Those magnums didn't kill any better than my 30-06 did. I enjoyed the stalk more than taking stunt shots just because I could.

If you peek in my safe, you will see guns like .257 Roberts, 7x57, 9.3x62, 450/400 Nitro 3".

I'm beginning to think I need another 30-06.

More powerful rifles are warranted for shooting large (elk or moose etc..) game at ranges exceeding 300 yards. Many people don't (and probably shouldn't) shoot that far.

My personal limit is the 300 Win Mag. I have a good recoil pad and well designed stock on mine and it kicks less than my off the shelf 30-06. It puts elk down on the ground faster and I get more exit holes than with my 06. I can shoot bullets with a higher SD and still get the velocity I want (bullet selection makes a huge difference in this discussion and I'm not going to hijack the thread by going through that debate). On deer sized game I see no appreciable difference.

parrett,

If you're comfortable with the 300 and 338 Win you should be all set for all NA game ! The latest "loudandboomer" won't make you a better hunter and sure won't make you a better field shot. Shot placement takes precedent over all.

That being said, recoil is very subjective to each person, and the rifles set up makes a great difference. A rifle of decent weight and proper LOP, with a scope set up right makes a big difference. The shooters experience also makes a HUGE difference.

When I bought my 338 Lapua Sako TRG-S (no brake, 24" bbl) I thought the recoil was pretty heavy and although I didn't dread it I sure wasn't looking forward to benching it! Thanks to the AR Big Bore forum in the ensuing years I bought many 375 H&Hs, 416 Rigbys and 458 Lotts.
I found I like shooting the big guns and decided to try to learn to shoot them well. The 458 Lott is a bitch off the bench (only used to try loadings and sight in), but I now look forward to shooting ground squirrels with it! Compared to my Lott the Lapua is very easy to shoot. My hunting bud doesn't like the recoil of the Lapua and REALLY dislikes the Lott. It is a question of recoil conditioning and my wanting to shoot the bigger stuff well.

My 338 Lapua is now my go to deer and elk rifle. Is it needed? NO way! I shoot it because I am comfortable with it and confident of it's capabilities. This year I took a nice mulie buck and a cow elk with the Lapua. Would a 270 or 30-06 have been as good? Yep! But I like my rifle and have confidence in it.

I am more of a shooter than a hunter (I have qualms with this but this is a fact) and like shooting different catridges than the norm.

Bottom line. Stick to the cartridges you are comfortable with and shoot well. The biggest and baddest won't help you if you hate the recoil and your shooting suffers. Lord knows most shooters, and I'm including myself here, can't take advantage of the better ballistics of a super mag over a good old round. BUT, if you like the bigger stuff and can shoot it I can't fault you

John

Just wait until arthritis kicks in on you, fellas. All this magnum discussion really changes when you can no longer tolerate recoil like you "used to" and you have to start down sizing. I've gone down to the .300 H&H as a maximum tolerance level, and am beginning to think I am just going to stick with the .30-06 because I am more comfortable with my 06, even if the H&H will out shoot the 06 for targets. And when it comes to everyday deer hunting I am down to the 6.5s and 7mms. It's not that the recoil cannot be tolerated for the shot in the field, adrenalin covers that. The problem is in all that practice shooting leading up to the hunt, That's where the pain gets to you. Sorry, but arthritis can really ruin your whole day.

LLS

I like the heavier bullets in the biggest cartridge that I can shoot comfortably and accurately.

Right now, that is my 300WSM wih 180 grain bullets in a standard 8-8.5 Lb rifle.

In a 10 lb rifle, it is a 375 H&H Magnum with 300 grain monometals.

Jeffe gave me the best analogy to recoil tolerance I ever heard.

If you walked into your first-ever martial arts class and tried a full blown forearm block, you'd fall on the floor crying. Same thing for recoil. Work up to it and anyone can do it. Jump into it cold turkey and you will probably get hurt. It's that simple.

tiggertate,

You summed it up!

John

When thinking about how much more beneficial the mag is over an equivalent diameter bullet in a standard cartridge, there seem to be two categories of greatest importance:

Trajectory & Penetration (and its counterpart, expansion)

In terms of trajectory, I'm not sure the magnum offers a real-world advantage inside of 400 yards.

In term of penetration/expansion, if the bullet goes completely through the animal, it has an "excess" of kinetic energy.

I know that some people subscribe to the greater energy=greater shock & truama. I'm not yet convinced that this is the case.

In the end, it probably is minutia. After all, a bullet's work is simple and brutish. Get the right bullet into the right spot, and you'll be butchering that night!

friar