This might not be the right forum but I didn't know where to post it. How do you use a mil dot scope for rangefinding?

I was playing an online demo simulation (i know i should have been outside) and it involved doing this. Do you need to set the scope for a specific power? Do you need to calibrate the scope.

The formula the website www.shooterready.com/lrsdemohi.html
gave was:

(target size in inches*27.778)/mil dot reading

Thanks for your help.

ya gotta understand, the mil-dot system is a stupid answer to a question that nobody asked. A standard moa spacing system would have been much cheaper and better way to go, IMHO.
1. Quick: what's a mil-dot?
2. Quick: what's an moa?

See what I mean?
The military came up with it, to pair up with their laser-rangefinder binoculars. That gives the target a sporting chance to move a hundred yards or so while you try and figure out the radian distance.

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

You must not know much about Mildots. For someone who knows how to use one, they're actually pretty useful for their intended purpose of ranging and ballistic computation. I personally have no use for them because I'm not going to shoot anything past my rifles' MPBR. However, the two men I've met who spent time hunting terrorists found them worthwhile.

YMMV,

I suggest you purchase a Mildot Master. Study the manual and practice. For most hunting situations you can easily "flash" mil the game animal.

GVA

A "mil" or milliradian is about 3.6 inches (if I remember correctly) at 100 yards. If you know the range, you can use a mildot scope to get a specific hold over at that range. If you don't know the range, you have to have an object of a known height (such as a hubcap, tire, deer, etc.). If you know the height of the object and how many mils it takes up from where you are shooting you can use a table or calculate how far away the target is.

I would suspect, but don't know for sure, that some of the cheaper mildot scopes may not be calibrated precisely. The higher end scopes like Leupold should be right on. Depending on what focal plane the mildots are on, the calibration might only be true at the highest scope magnification. As I understand it, in some zoom scopes the calibration is accurate at any magnification.

You have both made my point! Anything that requires an owners manual to be able to operate is too complicated for quick use. I have Premier Reticle put 1/4moa dots three and six moa high and three, six, nine, and twelve moa low on the vertical crosshair in my long range scopes, when they boost them. They also put windage lines three moa left and right. Run the computer program after I get my load work done and print out a drop chart to 1200 yds in 25 yd increments...in moa correction units. With my Geovids I am good to go. If I choose not to bring them along, the dots are a much more precise distance estimator than a mil dot and a book and slide rule. With the Geovids (Leica Laser Range Finder 8X binoculars...plus or minus 18 inches out to 1100 yds) it takes me less than ten seconds to adjust for distance and make the shot using the dots...by my lonesome.

Rich
DRSS

Thanks guys, I thought mil dots seemed complicated but I figured maybe I was just doing it the hard way.

However for the armed professionals who are putting these scopes to good use: best wishes and thank you for your service.

whizzbang, the link you gave should explain how to use the mildot for rangefinding. The dot size subtends an angle that is used to determine the range of a 30inch target (I believe). I bought their software, but I thought that their site had some demos on it. There is some misinformation posted here IMHO. The scope manufacturer will state what magnification the mildot rangefinding can be used for. The Supersniper scopes are fixed power. Like anythinge else you have to practice with it until it is second nature. The software has plenty of exercises for you to practice with. It is of limited use for hunting, unless you can translate the body size of the animal into the standard 'torso" measurement that is used for mildot. just to make it interesting, the army and the marines use a different size of dot! To answer your question, the comeups are still a function of the caliber you are shooting, so, once you have determined the range, the number of clicks (or holdover of th dots) will be a function of whether you are shooting a 223, 308, 300WM or 50BMG,
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
... Run the computer program after I get my load work done and print out a drop chart to 1200 yds in 25 yd increments...in moa correction units. With my Geovids I am good to go. ...

This is the poorest advice I've seen on the net in a l-o-n-g time. It is the best way possible to end up with Wounded Game.

Of course, if rich is only shooting paper, then it really doesn't matter at all.

If a person intends to take shots at Game, then he needs to actually practice at the distance he intends to take those shots and create a REAL Drop Chart. And as a nice side benefit, he will learn enough about shooting to not make posts such as the one rich made. Pitiful!

Hot Core,

insufficient data to reach your conclusion. The reticle system and laser rangefinder binoculars make for a much more realistic ranging proposition than the silly mil-dot set up.

Rifle under the scope is a seventeen pound 25 caliber wildcat based on a blown out, sharp shouldered, 6.5x68Schuler case. Shoots a .764 110gr VLD custom made BR quality bullet at 4000fps. It kills rockchucks and coyotes and the occasional badger out past 1000 yards reliably. Shoots in the .2-.25 moa range, and no animal hit has ever lived long enough to regain earth after the "launch" this rifle induces.

I do understand your concerns about big game shooting. I got a 7STW for that. This cartridge has been quietly adopted by the anti-terrorist rapid response unit at a nuclear facility.

Rich
DRSS
sorry, but I have to do this:

.764BC

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Hot Core,

insufficient data to reach your conclusion. ..

Not at all. Anyone who posts that it is possible to make accurate shots at distance, without actually shooting the firearm with the exact loads to create an "accurate" Drop Chart, exposes himself as having ZERO first-hand knowledge and experience on the subject. And you did expose yourself - completely.

I don't post as much as I used to, but this is the exact kind of blowhard, non-experienced, totally misleading post I will respond to. Unfortunately there are Beginners and Rookies out there reading this ignorance who will actually believe a person can simply do as rich first said.

Any shots that did make contact with a Target were simply a fluke and not to be taken seriously by ANYONE who has actual experience shooting at distance.

You may fool some of the Rookies and Beginners, but you sure don't fool me.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
A "mil" or milliradian is about 3.6 inches (if I remember correctly) at 100 yards. If you know the range, you can use a mildot scope to get a specific hold over at that range. If you don't know the range, you have to have an object of a known height (such as a hubcap, tire, deer, etc.). If you know the height of the object and how many mils it takes up from where you are shooting you can use a table or calculate how far away the target is.

I would suspect, but don't know for sure, that some of the cheaper mildot scopes may not be calibrated precisely. The higher end scopes like Leupold should be right on. Depending on what focal plane the mildots are on, the calibration might only be true at the highest scope magnification.

Hey Whizzbang, The information provided by Grumulkin is excellent. His next sentence is true for scopes that change the size of the Reticle as the Power is adjusted. I believe this is an option on some Scopes "sold" outside the USA.

quote:

As I understand it, in some zoom scopes the calibration is accurate at any magnification.

The Mil-Dot Reticle is one of the quickest and most accurate Sight Systems made. You can find slight modifications of it in the Leupold Boone & Crocket and Varmint Reticles. Burris also offers a unique Ballistic Plex Reticle which has multiple alignment points.

And there are some with a grid(similar to Engineer Paper) which can be way too busy, by providing too many aiming points.

Regardless of the Aiming System your scope has, it is always good to establish how wide apart the Aiming Points are. I have a simple chart that I hang at 100yds to do just that. It consists of BLACK Lines, which are 1/4" different in height, on a white sheet of paper. You simply see which Line matches the distance between the Aiming Points(or Mil-Dots) at a specific scope power. Sometimes the Aiming Points are very accurate to the makers specification, and sometimes not.

Once you know the spacing, you can then get relatively close Distance Estimations(as Grumulkin mentioned) "if" you know the size of the thing you intend to shoot at.

And of course, you ALWAYS have to actually shoot the rifle with your specific Load to create an Accurate Drop Chart.

When you know those three things;
1. Size of the Target.
2. Distance between Aiming Points.
3. The Actual Drop Rate.

Then it is a simple and quick way to place an accurate shot for someone who has Practiced shooting at distance with it.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills - and keep an eye out for the misleading blowhards.

Hot Core,

civilized, educate people spell other people's names with a capitol first letter...purposeful mis-spelling is another sign of your apparent low IQ and inbred heritage or simple childishness. I hope for your sake it is the latter, as the other two are not curable.

Another thing, just because you are incapable of accomplishing very much in terms of accurate shooting much past 100 yards, do not think the average interested shooter is incapable of such.

For several years my advancement in shooting accuracy and effective range was chronicled in Precision Shooting Magazine monthly issues, and parts of several books I wrote pieces for PS and other periodicals. Do you know who Boyd Mace is? Do you know who Dick Thomas is/was? Do you know who Gene Solyntjes is? Do you know who Jeff Fowler of Gastonia, NC, is? How about John Seamon of Statesville? Alan Hall? Ross Seyfried? How about John Ross in Missouri who wrote the apocalyptic novel "Unintended Consequences"? Dean Miller or his son Cyle, maybe?
Ummmm, Dan Lilja? Or Russ Hayden?

Any of those people listed can be contacted except maybe the two Ross's by phone using a copy of PS magazine to get their ads and phone numbers from, and a simple call asking any of them if they know of a long range live varmint shooter from Idaho named Rich, and if they have seen me shoot "the Banshee" will tell you what I have posted is true, by their own witness. Start with Dan Lilja maybe, and ask him about shooting Rockchucks here in Idaho with me one spring in the mid-nineties...

I do admit to feeling sorry for you, there are a vast number of shooters who have worked their way into shooting live varmints (at least) at ranges exceeding one-half mile with a lot of first shot, hit and kill, records.

Hey, easy one: call Precision Shooting Magazine Editor David Brennan and just ask him about his old staff writer, the "rockchuck shooter from Idaho". You don't even have to tell him my first name.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

The Mil dots are used for shooting distance. Like anywhere from 200yds to 1000yds

rich, rich, rich..., don't need to call anyone about you. Your posts make it ABUNDENTLY clear you are talking w-a-y beyond a first-hand experience level. If you really knew what you were talking about, you would not make such totally ignorant(non-educated for you) posts.

I hope you do stay around so all of us that know better can keep the Rookies and Beginners from being "duped" by such total loonacy as you put in print.

Plus, I now realize your posts(which I previously never bothered reading) seem to always be good for a few laughs.

This Board has endured a good number of blowhards who eventually moved on because of knowledgeable folks willing to step forward and correct the ignorance they spewed forth. And it will survive your foolishness.

give this a try...

http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemohi.html

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
This Board has endured a good number of blowhards who eventually moved on because of knowledgeable folks willing to step forward and correct the ignorance they spewed forth. And it will survive your foolishness.

Including but, not limitted to just you........ :booho

blowhard all you want, but don't ever add to the collective knowledge of the forum or offer your own experiences or share what you have learned. I came to Idaho for a Ranger Company in the spring of 1978, liked it enough to move here that summer. Been shooting Rockchucks and Coyotes ever since starting with a 219 Zipper Improved and all the way up to a 22-378, a 30-8mag and a 338-378, to three wildcats I designed and had built; a 6MMedusa, 223 VAlkyrie, and the 257 Banshee. The yardage went out from three hundred yards as a long shot to over a thousand with the aid of Leica Geovid Laser Range Finder Binocluars, a week at Ken Oehlers Chrono School, and shooting in some thousand yard matches. I started out at the 23rd Inf Division Sniper School back in 1969 and have gone from there.
What you see here is what I have learned since that time, and shooting hundreds of rockchucks every year out here.

What I see from you, is one of those yappy little rat dogs that elderly people stick up on the dash or their motorhomes, or in their lap driving an SUV...yap! yap! yap?

I really do feel sorry for you.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by whizzbang:
This might not be the right forum but I didn't know where to post it. How do you use a mil dot scope for rangefinding?

I was playing an online demo simulation (i know i should have been outside) and it involved doing this. Do you need to set the scope for a specific power? Do you need to calibrate the scope.

The formula the website www.shooterready.com/lrsdemohi.html
gave was:

(target size in inches*27.778)/mil dot reading

Thanks for your help.

I'm not quite sure you need input for an actual scope or just to play that video game.

This thread has spun out of control. Going back to a mildot reticle. It's a usefull tool in the field on its own. But, you'll need the skills and additional tools to take full advantage of this.

Without a laser range finder and without a pre-calibrated slide rule, you could still use this reticle to range an object of known size or size an object of known range. Even w/out a calculator, one could still perform straight math to deterine corrections for declination, holdover, lead and windage. Combine this with the knowledge of your rifle and its KNOWN come-ups, you can effectively area shoot center mass out a good ways.

The mildot master is one of many inventions that mother created out of necessity. It is a pre-calibrated slide rule that will give you every calculation and conversion you would ever need in a small flat laminated pocket sized package. In additon, it gives you space to add you confirmed and KNOWN come-ups. This takes a bunch of work off the shooter and/or the spotter, but you still must have experience and knowledge on estimating the size of objects. On game animals, it's not that difficult as many have consistent sized features that you can easily mil. In addition, you can pre-determine the mil for such sized feature at a known maximum range. You can use this to "flash" mill the game animal and immediately know that it is either closer than or farther than a pre-set maximum range.

Now that we have cheap laser ranging devices that include the ability to make corrections for declination, things are very easy. But, it still requires marksmanship. Two years ago I went through a training session at shooting unknown distances on odd shaped targets set out in varying terrain. The closest target was around 75meters and the farthest was around 500meters. I don't recall how many, but they were dispursed randomly all over the field of fire. Nothing was square or level, everything looked at angles. There were no wind flags and the only thing consistent was each target had a 3" aiming point.

You were on your own and there were no spotters or coaching. I went head to head against a fella who was using a laser range finder. I used a standard M40 and a mildot master slide rule.

All I can say is I cleaned the course and smoked the other fella. Maybe things would have been different if a spotter was ranging and calling the wind corrections over his shoulder. But as it was I just plain left him in the dust.

Going back to the simulator. With practice, you'll notice that you can quickly develope the skill to get yourself into the ball park in one shot. Then if needed, you can easily walk yourself into the target. It is not hard to do, and you can dump those simulator targets very fast. That is pretty much my tactic whenever I shoot varmints at long range.

good luck,
GVA

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
... but don't ever add to the collective knowledge of the forum or offer your own experiences or share what you have learned. ...

I didn't realize you are under the totally mistaken impression that you have the authority to tell anyone on the Board what to post and what not to post. Your intelligence seems to go lower with each post you make.

You are obviously much more delusional than I initially thought. I just thought you were a blowhard, wanna-be, know-nothing as your posts clearly indicate, now I realize that is just the tip of the matter.

Darn shame VarmintGuy isn't around. I feel sure he would find your posts to be the most ignorant and non-experienced he has ever seen.

One thing you can count on, as long as you post things that are blatently WRONG, someone on this Board will be along to alert the Beginners and Rookies of your complete lack of knowledge.

None of your "posturing" is impressive to this old MARINE.

GaryVa, so, to what do you attribute your success (not being sarcastic here). Presumably your partner was able to get the exact range, perhaps better than you. Did he just not know the come ups for his rifle? Incidentally, the come ups can also be come downs, and if you have to shoot fast, you can use the dots instead of adjusting the scope. Point is I guess, that knowing the range is not the be all and end all of the mil dot system.
peter.

hot core,

is that how it works, use lower case for people's names?

you are such a pathetic cretin imitation of a human being. I see you are continuing with your high level discourse and erudite comments; an obvious reflection of your education and experience.
Still haven't brought anything to the table except your appetite...and possible the mental equivalent of IBS*.
I find your silly claim to have been a marine ludicrous, the ones I served with in Vietnam in the CAP Platoon program were to a man, courteous and well spoken. Most of them had a high school diploma, something your vocabulary and mental acuity bring into serious question. Are you, perchance, the Hot Core guy Jeff Foxworthy speaks of as a second cousin who quit school in the 8th grade (with three years seniority) to get on full time at Billy-Bob's All Nite Lube Rack and Barbecue Grill...?

I am still waiting for you to sniff out some educational or informative tidbit to bring to the forum, much like a carolina hog sniffs out a truffle in the woods.

I look forward to your next post, perhaps you can tell us how many (if any) of your teeth you have left...
not counting, of course, the ones under your pillow in the forlorn hope that the Tooth Fairy will leave you the monetary equivalent of winning the lottery!

regards,

Rich
DRSS

*irritable bowel syndrome

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
GaryVa, so, to what do you attribute your success (not being sarcastic here). Presumably your partner was able to get the exact range, perhaps better than you. Did he just not know the come ups for his rifle? Incidentally, the come ups can also be come downs, and if you have to shoot fast, you can use the dots instead of adjusting the scope. Point is I guess, that knowing the range is not the be all and end all of the mil dot system.
peter.

Peter,

You answered your own question.

I'd add that by him using the laser and knowing the exact range was "not the be all and end all" of marksmanship that day. I didn't watch him shoot as I had my hands full, but the linesman said he spent too much time getting off the rifle and on the laser while I stayed on the rifle. I put on some clicks but mostly used the mildot master and scope reticle for corrections. This helped my time.

The point I was trying to make is that this reticle can do more than just range.

Hello,
Some of the harsh personal remarks regarding mil dot scopes, optics, ranging, shooting skills, etc. are really not necessary and if you will recall, some have been banned from the site for that same type of responses. Original question was quite direct and simply an inquiry of how the mil dot works and when you see all the answers and stated skills at shooting, one only needs to inquire as to the Long Range Classification one holds?? MU, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, or High Master?? Any one of the classifications will tell you all you need to know about the shooter.

Driver, I agree with you. However, the classifications you mentioned are all gained by shooting at known ranges with plenty of time to zero the rifle at that range, including the use of spotters and if necessary coaches. The estimation of ranges is a whole different skill set. Once you have an accurate estimate of the range, then the skill set that you are referring to kicks in.
Peter.

Hello Peter,

In a manner of speaking, you are correct, other than the ability to gain skill at marksmanship, prone with sling, not off a bench or bipods, must be obtained/practiced prior to the additional skills of range estimating(emphasis on estimating) and reading of the wind to place a shot accurately with "finality."
Learning to shoot at specific ranges and various conditons, light, mirage, wind, humidity, temperature, etc., all need to be mastered and then the unknown ranges and moving target training can take place to further enhance the marksman's skill. It's kind of like building blocks, accumulative knowledge, and unless one has displayed an ability to climb the level of performance, the use of the mil dots is somewhat irrelevant. Range of target(distance, come ups, mil dot data, etc.) minus wind doping, conmpensating for mirage, is of little use. Trust me, wind and other atmospheric factors will make the difference in a hit or miss. If you have attained the level of Master or High Master then you are ready to learn the additional skills to produce concistant hits at extreme ranges, varying conditions, but only after those basic skills are learned.
Mil dots are used for range estimation at longer than normal ranges and once you determine the est. distance/range, and you know the flight of your particular caliber(come ups)the shot can be taken very quickly. Usually a spotter/shooter team takes care of this problem by using a spotting scope with a grid/ranging reticle.

Agreed!
Peter.

Wow, this topic kinda took on a life of its own. Although my interest in firearms is somewhat academic at the moment (financial and accomadation constraints) I really enjoy learning about such things as scopes and ballistics. I was wondering about the Leupold B&C and Burris scopes mentioned. Can these scopes be adjusted to specific loads? Or do you need to learn where your rifle shoots in relation to the graduations?

quote:

Can these scopes be adjusted to specific loads? Or do you need to learn where your rifle shoots in relation to the graduations?

With certain models of Leupold scopes, if you provide Leupold with the appropriate ballistic information (muzzel velocity, bullet weight and ballistic coefficient) they will make a custom knob, obviously at a price, with appropriate markings for various ranges.

Of course, if you want to shoot a load with different numbers, you would have to have a knob with different calibration.

quote:

Originally posted by whizzbang:
...Can these scopes be adjusted to specific loads?

Yes with a Custom Reticle. But the problem is your Load and the Rifle will change slightly over time, then the Custom Reticle is not as precise as it was.

quote:

Or do you need to learn where your rifle shoots in relation to the graduations?

Unlike what our resident know-nothing expert rich will lead you to believe, it is always best to just shoot the specific Load and create your own Drop Chart. The main advantages are that you are no longer tied to a specific Load(which will change) or to the specific rifle, which will also change. And you may want to use the Scope on a totally different rifle.

So, it is always best to just accept the Reticle as is and then create your own Drop Chart.

Best of luck to you.

Homo Cretinus has finally added something to the forum of value? I guess the saying about even a blind hog finding an acorn once in a while IS true. Is this a sign that the End Times are upon us?

That is another issue with the Mil-Dot System. All that math, and software programming to deal with for every load/rifle you use it on.

As I had suggested earlier, a simple set of dots on the vertical reticle at known increments will do a much better, more precise, much faster (and simpler to boot), job of range estimation and holdover. Just get a good Leupold scope and have Premier Reticle put dots on it for you. My thousand yard live varmint rifle has a boosted 6.5-20X AO (to 18-42X)) with dots 3 and 6 moa high, and 3,6,9, and 12 moa below the horizontal crosshair. To better visualize the system, draw a 4" circle on a piece of paper. Draw vertical and horizontal lines. Then stick a dot at the spacings I mentioned. We all (except HC) know about how big the targets we wish to engage are as far as height...just find the dot spacing that measures the height as close as you can. Count the number of dots needed to cover the target vertically, and multiply times three (3 moa spacing between them) and you have the distance. Over a period of a couple of years, I learned to trust the dots and began to make my long range shots.
Life is complicated enough now as it is, just trying to figure out women and programming cell phones, VCR/DVRs and the darn microwave oven and stove timers is a fulltime job for me...

The dots won't change from cartridge to cartridge, just two minutes on something like Ken Oehler's ballistic program gives you as much distance out there as you would like, and in customizeable increments. You can set it to do the work in moa, which has been a wonderful thing with shooting long range black powder matches. You can measure the drop at 200 with a 100yd zero and back engineer the BC of cast bullets that way to allow you to set your iron sights waaaaaaaaay out there. Know your bullet BC and MV and get 'er shot...from county to county.

JMHO, your mileage may vary...(to steal, err, "borrow" a signature line)

Rich
DRSS

Well, I see riche has changed his tune from his original total ignorance. Good indication that someone has read the post to him and explained to him what he was "trying" to blowhard about.

As usual, unimpressed by the blowhard.

quote:

Start with Dan Lilja maybe, and ask him about shooting Rockchucks here in Idaho with me one spring in the mid-nineties...

Rich- Was that the time your first shoot froze the bolt and ended your shooting for that day?
Scared the hell out of all around you. I believe it was the Banshee!
I would be careful about throwing names around.

Hot Core- Would you rather use a Mil-Dot or click in your elevation and windage? Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
Hot Core- Would you rather use a Mil-Dot or click in your elevation and windage? Thank you.

Hey Pegleg, I used to crank in elevation(and windage) for a long time. It works fairly well "if" your Range Estimation is accurate. This was before the advent of Lazer Range Finders, so you had to actually practice Range Estimation, but knowing the actual distances by walking them off and having distance markers really helped. Having to guess at the distance, guessing at the wind and the tendancy of a Bullet to Drift to the right(with a Right Hand twist barrel) meant there just had to be a lot of practice if you expected to consistently hit anything.

My first scope that had Range Finding ability is an original Weaver(Made in El Paso, which I still have) 3-9x that has two horizontal crosshairs. All the crosshairs in it are "fine lines" and are totally worthless in dim light. A 6" object fits between the two horizontal crosshairs at 100yds on 9x and that works quite well though - in good daylight.

Now that I've used Mil-Dots, they allow rapid Range Estimation, are faster to use than cranking and of course require less movement and repositioning to verify what you are cranking in. They do not allow accurate compensation for Windage, so you either have to use "Kentucky Windage" or crank it in.

The rather recent introduction of the Boone & Crocket and Varmint Hunters Reticles by Leupold are steps in the right direction. They both highlight how much a Bullet moves in only a 10mph cross-wind. People can simply look at the Reticles and get an idea about "why", people with actual distance experience, tell them NOTHING replaces actually practicing with the specific rifle/load at distance.

For the vast majority of Hunters, it is very difficult to beat what Leupold calls their HEAVY Duplex Reticle. The thin ( + ) allows for Range Estimation "if" you verify how wide or tall it really is at 100yds. I have a good number of these and they are all different. Mine range from 5.5" at 100yds to 9" when set on 10x.

I've noticed that nearly all scope manufacturers have Reticles similar to the Leupold HEAVY Duplex today. For someone Hunting in the Prime Time at Twilight or overcast days, they are difficult to beat for shots out to 400yds.
---

However, your question is about Mil-Dots and the best way to see if you like them is to try one. It doesn't have to be expensive either.

I've recently had a good number of young`uns asking me about rifle and scope recommendations. The Rifle wasn't a problem, but the scope was, because of the cost. I've just not had any recent experience with inexpensive scopes. So, I'm currently trying some out. If they can handle the shock of my heavier recoil rifles over this year, I'll be ready to comment on them.

One I'm Testing has an Illuminated Mil-Dot feature, "claims" to have a better Warranty than Leupold and is only $70. This scope would be "better" if the Lowest Intensity was even lower(for dim light shooting), but that is my only gig so far. For use in the daytime, it "might" be quite a bargain.

Best of luck to you.

PegLeg,

Nahhh, that was me and Gene Solyntjes up in Seattle with my 22-378Wby-AI and some 80gr VLD's. That was a case of trying to find out how much and how fast. The Savage rifle we converted from 223 to the Big Boy is still in use. It went back to Savage and got checked out, then another 223 barrel went on. It's a 22-284 now. Never got to any serious pressure issues with the Banshee, that's just a 6.5 Schuler necked down and blown out to 25 caliber.

Rich
DRSS

LEUPOLD MIL DOT INSTRUCTION MANUAL (PDF, 646k)

The Mil-Dot is an effective way to determine range and holdover accurately. You have to practice to get good at it but you practice shooting, right? In a tactical environment it does not give away your location like a laser range finder can.

Best of luck, I "Heart" my mil-dot scopes