If I had put this in the Wildcatting forum I know what the answer would likely be so its here..

I'm building a rifle on a full length large ring Mauser action, but I haven't settled on a caliber. I primarily hunt deer with a 260Rem and a 308Win. There is also an 8x57 Sporterized Mauser in the gun room.

For this new one I haven't decided on a caliber and while I have read both of P.O. Ackley's books and part of me would like an AI round for this gun, I haven't convinced myself its worth the extra $$ and inconvenience to chamber this one in 280AI or 338-06AI.
I already reload for every gun I own, so that part is not an issue.

My impression is the improved velocities are only about 150fps over the standard rounds. Is it worth it go chose the 280AI over the 280 or the 338-06AI over the standard round?

In most cases and all the ones you named with the possible exception of the 8x57 your talking about 100 FPS and its not worth it..

The only two rounds that P.O. Ackley, by his own statement, that worked well were the 257 Robts. and the 7x57 Mauser, therefore the 8x75 would probably benifit..

Today there is little reason to wildcat other than for your personal enjoyment...It has all been done and you can't come up with anything that a factory round can't duplicate..

I had a 260ai made up on a hvy bbl. M700. I like the round, but in reality, it offers little over the 260, maybe 100fps. If you don;t mind the extra cost of dies (although you can use a std. neck sizer) why nit. I wouldn't rechamber an existing rifle but if you are rebarreling, why not? I agree w/ Ray, the 8x57 would benefit the most.

Well crap I typed an essay and the sight timed out. I have more wildcats than factory. I gain about 1% velocity for 4% capacity in 06 based AIs at equal pressure. The 7x57 based show greater gains because the tapered smaller case gains 7% capacity vs 4% for an 06 based. Plus factory 257 & 7x57 are loaded to a much lower pressure so huge gains over factory. Load to 65,000 that is a 20% pressure increase alone over a 257 & 7X57 factory load.

At equal pressure they wont match the next larger magnum case. I like them to be different.

With factory 280 AI brass available and the cost of the dies pretty much the same what the heck. With a tapered expander I have taken 280 brass to 416 so a 338-06AI would also work without fireforming.

quote:

Is it worth it go chose the 280AI over the 280 or the 338-06AI over the standard round?

No.....
Look at the prformance difference between a .338-06 and a .338 Magtnum.....very little!!! Now what makes one think that blowing out the body taper of the '06 case is going to make anydifference when the very much larger magnum case doesn't make a big difference.

Same for the .280 and the 7MM Mag at equal pressures.

If you're a prudent handloader, you can do the same with the parent case that you can do with the AI case.....a major league pitcher can throw a baseball much faster than the difference you'll gain.

I've shot the 257imp for years,also standard 257r.Built a 338-06 imp and later a standard 338-06,i've never seen enought Improvement to built another imp. rifle.

Especially on a Mauser action, I think the standard cartridges are the better choice. If I wanted something "improved" I would just get a magnum, or perhaps something chambered in one of the new Ruger cartridges.

I tried a 338-06 improved one time, and liked it, but I would have liked the standard chamber just as well, and maybe better because it would feed better. I would rather have slick feeding than an additional 100 FPS.

KB

I'm not a fan of the magnum rounds. I owned a 300WSM in a lightweight Browning ABolt and it didn't stay in the safe long - less than 2 boxes got shot out of it. I guess as far a filling niches in my lineup goes, there's not much gap between the 260 and 308, so I might just go for the 338-06 for a middle heavy weight rifle and forget the AIs

Been there done that. I went thru a stage where I thought everything I shot had to be a wildcat or AI. You know on the cutting edge, getting every FPS. Figured the guys that shot standard cartridges just did know any better. Well, the added shoulder angle just isn't worth it. Load twice to shoot once. Naw. If you want a .338 with .338 Mag performance, shoot the 338 mag. I am building a 338-06 now but it won't be a AI. I had a 257 AI at one time and now it is gone. So went the 375 JRS Mag. I am a lot happier with the standard stuff. Hell I can even shoot ammo off the shelf if I have to. Keep your life simple. Chambers too.

There are more benefits to an AI cartridges than just velocity. Increased case life, less squirt factor, increased accuracy(maybe) and the COOL factor.
I had an old Rem 700 30-06 converted to an AI a few years ago. Total cost for gunsmith and dies was less than $175. In this case converting to an AI improved accuracy, case life, velocity and cost much less than a new barrel. I am very pleased with the way it turned out. Working up loads is both a blast and a chalange. Keeps the "loading boredom blues" away.

I have been very happy rechambering to the 223 AI and 6mm AI on Remington 700s. I neck size only, using standard Lee collett dies. I have seen the "usual" 100 fps increase and great accuracy. The best thing is that the cases don't stretch and reloading is a snap.

I have been disappointed with the 35 Whelen AI. The velocity increase is hardly noticable.

might want to read this
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/0608/index.html

I think two of the best Ackley Improved rounds are the 7x57 and the 250 Savage. I could live with either one and am having a 250 Savage AI put together now. Probably won't ever do the 7x57 AI, nonetheless it is a fine chambering.

Don

I had a rifle rechambered in 280A.I. I like it. Accuracy improved alittle all though it was good to begin with. I don't believe I would rechamber a factory gun again,because the gain was small. But when ihave my outher gun rebarreled to 35 Whellen I'm going improved because the chambering cost is the same. I don't care about the gain so much I love the cool factor, Isn't that what It's all about?

True happiness is a 250-3000AI in a light rifle.

"To AI or not to AI that is the question"

Shakespeare would be proud!

So would Shakespeare

Maybe when I ship the action off in a few weeks, still have some polishing to do, I'll decide on a whim and tell the 'smith whatever I'm thinking that day. Or I could just tell him to keep it Deer+ and surprise me.

I've had 2 semi-custom rifles AI'd: 223 Rem AI and 338-06 AI. Neither cost 1 penny more to have chambered with the AI reamer. I can still shoot the un-AI'd parent ammo with no problems. But I didn't go into either project looking for great gobs of extra bullet speed. I just wanted to straighten the case body to get longer case life. If I ever decide I need a 28 caliber rifle, I have no doubt it would be the 280 Rem Ackley Improved!

You don't seem to know what you're after, so the point is moot.

The point was is it worth the extra expense of the dies and the aggravation of having to shoot once to bump out the case to go to an AI version - all for 100fps?


The cost of the 338-06AI dies run at or more than $100, the 280AI dies are abit more reasonable ($60-$80), but all of them are special orders. this is looking at MidwayUSA prices today

Leoparddog, thanks for catching that. It proves that I can't type and chew bubble gum at the same time. Lou

I'd be tempted by the .250-3000 AI, too, but am reluctant to alter an otherwise original Savage 99 in very good condition.

quote:

Originally posted by leoparddog:
The point was is it worth the extra expense of the dies and the aggravation of having to shoot once to bump out the case to go to an AI version - all for 100fps?


The cost of the 338-06AI dies run at or more than $100, the 280AI dies are abit more reasonable ($60-$80), but all of them are special orders. this is looking at MidwayUSA prices today

When I had my 280AI build I had a pretty good idea on bullet and velocity I was looking for did alittle research talked to barrel manufactor and gunsmith etc. It's just like any other rebarrel job you get to select manufactor type of barrel, rifling,twist,contour,length and if you wanted it throated for a certain bullet you can even order special bore/groove dia.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2046

quote:

the 280AI dies are abit more reasonable ($60-$80), but all of them are special orders

If you are lookig at RCBS, then yes they are all "special order". Hornady, Lee and standard Redding sets are all available without special order.

IF you don't mind the hassle of making cases, you should consider the .338-.340 Gibbs-the Gibbs .30/'06 based case necked uo to shoot .338" bullets. This round will provide bakistic performance close to the factory-loaded .338 Win. Mag., but do it with .30/'06 brass.

quote:

The point was is it worth the extra expense of the dies and the aggravation of having to shoot once to bump out the case to go to an AI version - all for 100fps?

The point is, are you a person who likes to fool with something new and different (to you!!), or are you one who likes to avoid extra challenge & work?

If you are the former, do a wildcat. If the latter, why not just use factory ammo??

I hunt in a club of gun nuts, When Jarette started pushing the 280ai most had 1 made. There is not a single 280 ai left in the club.

quote:

Originally posted by leoparddog:
The point was is it worth the extra expense of the dies and the aggravation of having to shoot once to bump out the case to go to an AI version - all for 100fps?

I think you've got the wrong impression about the AI form of wildcatting. AI chambers shoot the parent cartridge just fine and with almost the same accuracy. You seem to think the first shot and all of its components are a waste; not so. It is so with more radical wildcats like the Gibbs or Hawk\Scoville cartridges, but not AI.
case forming NOTE: Hawk calibers are true wildcats. It is not possible to fire any factory cartridge in a Hawk chamber. This will result in severe damage to your firearm and potential personal injury.

quote:

Originally posted by tom ga hunter:
I hunt in a club of gun nuts, When Jarette started pushing the 280ai most had 1 made. There is not a single 280 ai left in the club.

http://www.jarrettrifles.com/280AckleyImproved.html

I followed Jarrett 280AI when it came out and at that time was alot of pro's & con's if it was worth building one when many claimed 2900fps plus with a standard 280. My first AI was a 7x57 and with 53gr/IMR-4350 150gr bullet I got 2915fps.

I was shooting a 7mag back then so I just compared the 7x57AI against that. Later I got a 7mm Express and I never could get published velocity with that rifle and I never figure the 280 would make a good 280AI.

We all know the SAAMI pressure for the 280 is 60kpsi well Hodgdon/IMR has data for the 280AI over 62kpsi. I finally had a 280AI build I think with some of the better choices in rifling offered you can get better than published velocity with a 280AI. 3100/3200fps is possible with a 280AI using 150gr bullets with the right combination.

I have extensive experience with the .257 AI, 2506 AI, 280 AI, 3006 AI, and 375 H&H AI. The .257 AI, 280 AI, and 375 AI are all significant improvements, and I recommend them. The 2506 AI is well overbore, given currently available powders, and (like the 3006 AI) it is only mildly improved, and not worth the fuss. Also, the 2506 AI is hard on barrels.