I would also like to hearyour "personal/political reasons" for deciding not to use 3 of the top 10 (quite possibly top 5) best bullets of all time.

I can understand his aversion to the "X" bullets as I've not done well with them. They are IMHO overpriced and foul way too much. I had some bad experiences with them about five years ago in both a .375 H&H and a .300 mag, but I have heard they are "improved" now.

Partitions are my standard hunting bullet here in the States and have used them in South Africa as well. Though Swift A-Frames usually go on the RSA trips, cheap insurance in my opinion.

I have the experience now with many years of partition use to know just what they will and will NOT do. Great hunting bullets for not a ton of money. Then again standard old Hornady's, Speers and Sierras have worked well for me for many years when I truly couldn't afford partitions.

FN in MT

[ 11-11-2002, 05:47: Message edited by: Frank Nowakowski ]

Right here in this forum there is a page (found at the "Home" page) that contains a great number of pictures of "X" bullets recovered from the largest game in Africa, with accounts of how they performed, penetration, etc.

I have used Moly-coated 230-grain FS with great success on moose, from 100 yards to 300 yards. I have killed several moose with one shot with these bullets. I haven't use Barnes-X, but more and more I read stories at the hunting forums on how well the "blue" X performs. Last year I use a 250-grain Nosler to kill a moose, and it dropped just as fast as other moose I have shot with the 230-grain FS.

Hey guys,
Ok, I admit I'm probably being a little unfair to the Partitions, but as for the X and Failsafe, I will stand firm. The reasons for my bias is the performance I and some very close friends have witnessed. We have seen more game (mostly elk) run over to the next county after being shot with the X or Failsafe than ALL of the conventional bullets combined (most have been shot with either a 30-06 or various 300 mags.)!! I have yet to recover either of those two bullets from an animal because they have failed to open and punched a clean 30 cal. hole through the chest cavity. That's all the experince I need and I'm sure others have had better luck but we are going to stick with Hornady's or Grand Slams!

As far as the Partition goes...it's kinda like all of those "political" adds that you've see on tv and heard on the radio just before the election. After you hear about a candidate, in this case a bullet, so much you just can't take it anymore and it's just a turnoff. I have never read a magazine writer say a bad word about them and I find that hard to believe that they have NEVER had a bullet fail?! I also think that Nosler has bought alot of "good" press by supplying them with bullets and the use of their range. I guess if I got all of those extras and wanted to keep them than I would'nt say anything to piss off the hand that feeds me either. Other companys supply the writers with their products too but they seem to be relegated to the "honorable mention/backseat" category behind Nosler.

Well, there you have it. Those are our reasons and ours alone. Some people may agree and I'm sure a few won't, but I'll shoot what I like and you can shoot what you like. Thankfully there's more than one bullet company to chose from!

Elk Country

Ok, I guess that is kind of justified. Your reasons against the Partitions are kinda thin but I can understand that. I feel the same way about Glock pistols--just tired of seeing and hearing about them--sure they are good pistols but I feel there are better options that people fail to consider cause all they see is these Glocks. Kinda like boy bands--a dime a dozen and everyone thinks that they are popular cause they are the best.

FarRight,

Like I said, I'm probably being unfair to the partitions but it's my way of protesting that there are other bullets out there that will work just as well. Afterall, dead is dead, and all that matters is a clean kill! I didn't bring up the money issue as it is NOT an issue with me. When factoring in the cost of all the other equipment that is neccessary for a sucessfull hunt, the bullet is just a fraction of the total cost. If a bullet costs $15/box or $50/box, it's miniscule compared to the rest!
Hope everybody had a great season!
Elk Country

The X-Bullet and Fail Safe have to be two of the most controversial bullets made. A good friend of mine who has been killing elk for thirty years, lost a cow elk with an X-Bullet in the early nineties. The shot was a 100 yds, broad side, and though the front shoulder with a 300 Win. At the shot she and 3 other cows took out running, which is not unusual, but she never stopped. The guide saw the bullet hit and having seen him shoot, I think a miss is not the case. He now shoots Fail Safes and likes how they do not ruin a bunch of meat, but has shot two cows twice due to no reaction from the first shot. The internal damage he sees is not near as extensive as Partitions or Hornadys, his recommendation for bulls are Partitions.

But I watch Saeed’s videos, check recovered bullet pictures, follow other forums and think X-Bullets have to be the best thing since sliced bed. Then I read a post such as this and my doubts re-surface. I guess I will start with the 6mm 85 gr. XLC’s and see how they shoot. If velocity and accuracy is good, try them on coyotes. If they open up on coyotes, use them on a couple of whitetail does. Then go from there.

But it will be long time before I use any thing but a heavy for caliber Partition on an elk size animal. I shot bad one morning and thought I had a gut shot cow elk on my hands, but she only when about 75 yds and laid down. I was able to dispatch her quickly thank goodness. The bullet was a 6.5mm 140 gr. Partition that went in way to far back, but when though a bunch of elk, found the lungs and ripped a big hole in them. I was pretty disgusted with my shooting that morning, but thanked heaven that a couple of older and wiser gentlemen introduced me to Nosler Partitions and H4831 when I was quite young.

Saludos…Frank

Here is some more information in relation to the "blue" X bullet. The link will take you to another forum:

web page 24hr. Campfire, Big Game forum

Elk,

I think the reason that you don't read alot of bad press about the NP is that it really does work?! It's not picky to load for, predictable terminal performance, it just seems to work. I'm sure the Interlok & others do as well, but the NP has been around for along time. If there were any problems, they would have been written about, product indorsements be damned. The excellant Swift bullets is the same design made tougher w/ a bonded core. Like others have said, cheap insurance for a bullet that only costs twice the price of a "standard" bullet.

Frankly, I really don't give a damn about what anybody says about the Nosler Partition bullet. I have been using them for over 40 years all over the U.S. and in Alaska too, and they work! I have never seen one fail to expand, even at ranges of over 400 yrds, and have never seen one "blow up", even at ranges measured in feet at magnum velocities!! I also know a couple of guys who have used them in .375 H&H's for Cape Buffalo, and they killed as well as or better than a solid. Anyone who bad-mouths this bullet just has no idea what he is talking about, or he is trying to start an argument!!

Elk Country: Your observations on the X-type bullets are, unfortuantely, probably fairly accurate. As I have said on this forum many times in the past, more game is lost to under-expanding bullets than to "over-expanding" bullets. I've been speaking mostly in terms of deer-sized animals, but it is equally true that if the vitals of a moose-sized animal are not sufficiently traumatized, then the animal may keep its feet long enough to elude capitation.

Like you, I'm among those turned off by hype about a particular product. In the case of Nosler Partitions, however, it's very difficult to find an occasion on which they didn't work. This is mostly due to them having a very soft front section which gives excellent and abrupt expansion. The rear section makes the exit hole which many hunters irrationally demand, but it is usually the front which does the work. At any rate, I have found the Partition always works, although it is not really needed in the majority of hunting situations.

Good luck with your moose hunt!

I love this topic....Just recently posted a question in this forum about Barnes XLC bullets for my 7RM, its all about the search for the "perfect bullet" I guess, probably need to realize that there is no such bullet...

I�ve been using Partitions a lot, but I�m drifting away from them. I have found, like everbody else it seems, that they are (almost) always accurate, never really fail and kills with authority. I�ll still use the 140 grain .264 bullet for my 6,5 x 55, but in 7RM and .375 hh I look for something that leaves less bloodshot meat. Especially in the 7RM and close shots they destroy too much for my liking. So I walk the thorny path of trying to make other "premiums" shoot well in my rifles. So far the .375/235 grain XLC shows real promise. (Until the next shooting session I guess..)

Which brings me to my real point, I dont believe the Partitions are "hyped" or that the Noslers have "bought" every reputable gun-writer in the world, its just that Partitions are the only premium bullets (that I know of), maybe beside the Woodleigh bonded cores, that are consistently accurate and totally untemperamental to load. And they were the first really reliable bullets available.

In scandinavia they have a great reputation, since Norma started loading ammo with them many decades ago, and hunters found them to be the first reliable bullet they had ever used. For many people I think the other premium bullets that have come later are just (sligthly) better and more expensive mousetraps. MHO

Tron

I sure find Elk Countys thoughts on partitions totally without substance from a rifleman or hunters standpoint...

I tend to agree with him on Barnes X bullets as I know of a lot of failures and I have had failures so I am somewhat turned off..but this year I saw them perform with par excellence on buffalo..

My take is that when X bullet work they work wonderfully and when the fail, they fail miserably...I truly believe Barnes has a quality control problem..I beleive the Win. FS work very well....I know the GS Custom monolithics work 99.9% of the time as advertised...the GS will always be my pick for monolithics.

I have to agree with eldeguello and Atkinson on the Partition. I don't have much experience with X bullets or Fail Safes but I have killed a slew of game with Partitions. I have NEVER had a bullet failure with them. Hunter failure when I didn't place the bullet right - yes, but bullet failure - never. The Partiton is definitely not gunwriter hype. The front opens up and the back pushes through every time at any range or any velocity that I have ever taken a game animal. It may not be the "perfect" bullet, but gentlemen it is close enough.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can't get the job done on elk with Nosler Partitions, you won't get it done with anything else, and I don't care what cartridge or caliber you're talking about.

AD

I have shot Brown Bear, Caribou, Bull Elk, Mule Deer and Whitetails, with Nosler Partitions or Partition Gold, no failures over 30 years. I have shot Bull Elk with with Barnes X and XLC, no failures over 5 years. I have shot Bull Elk with North Forks for two years, perfect performance. You guys can argue about bullets until you are blue in the face, you will never shoot a better bullet than the North Fork, for toughness, reliability, and accuracy. Good shooting.

Elk Country is stoned. Obviously he's never seen the perfomance of what the FailSafes and Nosler Partitions are capable of doing on big game (i.e. BROWN BEAR and moose and BISON.) Sorry, deer don't count on my big game list, since just ONE of my bull moose's hind quarter probably outweighted the average deer shot.

Elk Country,

If you want, I can list all the animals that I have killed and my friend has killed (pictures might work better, though) with the Partition bullet, FailSafe, and, oh yeah, the BarnesX!

Bearstalker,

Well, I'm glad you've had good luck with the Failsafes and the X bullet. I would like to show you the bullets that have been shot at elk (if you consider elk big game animals?) but unfortunately they failed miserably and skipped across the high country of CO. never to be seen again. Of all of the bullets I have used or have been witness to, they were by far the worst performers. Not trying to be confrontational, just relating personal in the field experiences.
If the partition shot well in my rifles, then I would shoot them but I haven't had luck with them either. You can shoot what you like, I'm going to stick with the Grand Slams and plain ole' Hornadys!
Elk Country

Elk contry,
Tell us in detail about the Fail Safe failures, I'm more interrested in failed bullets and the circumstances surrounding the failures than all the perfect bullets people can post...

Ray,

We have had 3 major failures in my opinion with the X and Failsafe, all were handloaded ammo. A .30 cal. X 165gr. used on a 5x5 bull elk (125yds. with a 30-06, a .30 cal 180gr. Failsafe on a cow elk (80yds. from a 300 Win. mag.) and a .338 cal. 230gr. Failsafe on a spike bull elk (175yds. from a 338 Win.) All of the bullets failed to open and punched straight thru on broadside rib shots. Each animal had almost the same reaction being that they ran a few yards stopped briefly, then proceeded to top the ridge and travel about 1/2 mile before lying down. We have been fortunate in that we have recovered all of the game but not without great effort. If you are wondering why follow up shots were not taken, they were on the 5x5 and the cow but missed due to poor angles and running at full speed. Cleaning the game revealed no visible expansion and minor tissue damage, but the give away was that the entrance and exit holes were the same size! Some may say I'm making things up or blame it on a bad batch of bullets, fine whatever they believe is up to them, I believe they are over-hyped, overpriced and we won't ever use them again.
Elk Country

Elk - Sounds reasonable to me. A guy needs to use what he believes in, I think. And there are other good bullets out there. Go for it and happy hunting.
P45

Elk Country If you want bullets to expand BIG, and make BIG HOLES try the Hawk bullets. They have given me my biggest mushrooms ever. WARNING: they are soft, they do not fragment, but expand BIG. They come in different jacket thickneses. I would use the .035jkt at Impact velocities up to @2400fps. Above that I would use the .050jkt. Also I would use a heavy for caliber bullet for bigger big game. I have some 300gr. 408 dia. .025jkt fired at about 2330fps, and some 285gr. 9.3mm .035jkt fired at @ 2350 recovered from hogs. All have expanded to about the size of a quarter [US]. the 9.3's have a good amount of shank left, the 408's almost none. All have given good penetration. The more I use them the more I like them. I have some loaded, 180gr. .035jkt in 30-06 that my wife is using in her Drilling. She is going to try and shoot a big buck and a hog or two with them. Because of the place and way we hunt he range should be close. I'll let you know how they work.

Elk Country:

Ditto. I've used 300 grain Hawk .030 jacket round-tips in a .400/.360 Nitro Express (2000fps MV) for several years and they really expand. Despite rapid expansion, given adequate weight for caliber, they still penetrate like crazy and don't break up. Work up carefully with Hawks though as they can be "sticky" in some rifles. I agree with NE .450 No. 2's recommendation concerning velocity and jacket thickness. In, say, a 200 grain .30 or a 250 grain .338, the Hawk would make a dandy Elk bullet.

I've also used Nosler Partitions and have never had a complaint in terms of terminal performance. I still use them in some rifles, but I don't own a rifle that really likes 'em. Adequate accuracy for hunting, but not the best. That said, I don't think that they are overhyped, particularly for elk. In the same weights as above, I can't imagine having a problem.

I have no experience with Fail-Safes. Regarding your experience with X-Bullets, I don't believe that to have been a freak performance or a "bad batch". A few years ago, my hunting partner shot a medium sized black bear in the center of the chest as it stood facing him with a 285 grain X from a 9.3 X 62 Mauser. The range was about 35 yards. The bullet exited through the rear of a ham - complete lengthwise penetration and a nice, neat .36 caliber hole the entire way. No expansion at all. I saw that failure and have heard of quite a number of others from guys that I know well. I can't understand the hype about this bullet and, personally, will not use it on game.

"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I can understand why not using Partitions and X, I'm not using those either.
I'd sertanly not use Partitions on anything that I was supposed to eat afterwords. I've chewed copper and lead enough in my lifetime, from Partitons!! It's a fine trophy -bullet, where it does'nt matter if the whole animal nearly explodes, only it's dead.
The X fouls barrels a lot. And I have seen several occasions where this bullets havent expand, or simply lost his "wings" and gone right trough the animal. Just like a solid.
The failsafe must be the price??
On things I'm planned to eat, I always use bounded bullets; Woodleigh, Oryx, Swift.
On other animals it does'nt matter, as long as it dies......fast!

Since 1957 I have been shooting Nosler Partition bullets in calibers .257, .257 Whby,30-06, 300 Apex, 300 Whby to .375 H&H. In all that time I have never had a terminal ballistic failure of a Nosler Partition.

They aren't super bullets, they aren't for everything. As long as you employ them within the design parameters they will simply do what they say they will do every time!

I see no reason not to use them. If they made a .408 400 grain bullet for my double I'd use 'em there too.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Elk Country will be OK using those Speer GS's. I've used them for years and they work great. I'll be using Partitions because of the rifle I'll be hunting whitetails with as soon as it's finished. It's a 25WSM that I'll be using sort of as a "bean field rifle" but you know how that goes, You build a rifle and set up for a 400yd shot and they come up and want to sniff the legs of the deer stand!

Elk Country I too have used the Nosler bullets for quite a few years dating back to the mid 70's lets say. I also started using the Barnes X bullet back in the early 90's and did have a problem with them not opening as they were supposed to. I blamed an elk loss on the caliber of gun at the time, an excellent .270 caliber Winchester model 70. Well, I bought a bigger gun and really didn't like it as much, but it shot a heavier bullet in a 300 Whinny mag. I also came very close to losing a bull elk after I hit it square behind the left shoulder. It was shot later on hitting the spine and dropping the bull.
A guide found the second bullet and it never opened up, end of the X bullet for hunting, as far as I was concerned. The wound cavity from the first bullet looked like a target arrow was shot through it's rib cage and out the other side it did exist. I also could not get it to shoot even close to the 270 it replaced, which shot 1/2 groups all day long. The 300 with the X bullet shot 2 inch groups on a good day.

Well, I didn't try the Barnes bullets again until the year 2000 and the newer xlc bullets have panned out well so far and I have never as yet had a problem with them. Accuracy speaking, I can say that out of the 3 rifles (25-06, 7mm mag, 338 win mag) they are all under 1MOA. If I should develope a problem, then it will be back to the Nosler bullets of which I have never had a problem on any size game up to moose that I have hunted and shot.

Chigger, my take on your post is that you have total confidence in the Nosler.
Why fool with the Barnes?
I used them in my 270 also and killed a nice bull with it and beleived they were the cats meow.
I just can't get any of my other rifles to shoot consistently with them.
It's easier to shoot the partition. They almost always give acceptable accuracy.
I'm thinking of trying some of those North Forks, but it seems I can't draw an elk tag anymore and you don't need them on deer.

I find it all amazing that all those fancy bullets fail. You all should be useing match kings they seem to work just as well.

Sakoluver, it is like this, I am always trying something new out for grins. However my Pappy used to always say: Son if it ain't broke, let it be! Guess I never did learn that aspect of traveling through life with my eyes closed as yet. I like trying new things out and see if I can have something a little better. Grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence, even you you have all you need to eat. Lol

Now just in case you .270 owners out there thought I might be knocking that favorite gun of yours, I was not Ok. I know with a 160 grain Nosler partition it will go clean through an elk standing broadside at 250 yards.

I am these days looking at the Nosler's for the smaller stuff and those high dollar Swift bullets
A - Frames for the elk and moose size animals. I am still gettin reports of guys shooting animals and those Barnes bullets NOT exspanding like advertised.

I started using those Barnes bullets again, the blue buggers Ok, only because this friend of mine worked up a couple of loads with his rifles and they shot near perfect on paper. I mean very small holes in the targets at 100 yards. Now when he did it the 3rd time, using a gun I used to own 10 years back, it got my mind to wondering a wee bit. Let's try the blue bullets......so I did and still have my doubts about them in the field.

[ 12-07-2002, 22:08: Message edited by: Chigger ]