I am new to reloading and need some help. I shoot a 7mm-08 and a .270 that both like the Winchester ballistic silvertip. The 7mm in 140 grains and the .270 in 130 grains. I'm having good luck with the IMR 4350 in both. What I would like to know is what powder Winchester uses. If this info is available, I haven't been able to find it. Thank you.

Ammo manufactuers do not publish the load data they put into commercially loaded rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by 30378:
Ammo manufactuers do not publish the load data they put into commercially loaded rounds.

True and anyone that says they know should be treated with great suspect......

Further the powder used today may not be the powder used next month.....

quote:

Originally posted by Erkoenig:
If this info is available, I haven't been able to find it.

You won't find it because Winchester, or any other big ammo maker for that matter, don't load canister grade gunpowders. Use the SEARCH function, there have been plenty of threads over the years on this very question.

They do say in one of their loading manuals " To duplicate the 30-06 factory load" and another bit from Win 296" was developed for factory ammo in 357mag"
So how much different are the factory powders from the ones available to you and I?

quote:

Originally posted by Fasteel:
They do say in one of their loading manuals " To duplicate the 30-06 factory load"

When they say that, they mean "to duplicate the PERFORMANCE of factory loads"...not to duplicte the load itself.

and another bit from Win 296" was developed for factory ammo in 357 mag" but that is no indication of whether they still use 296 in their factory ammo. It just explains where 296 comes from historically.


So how much different are the factory powders from the ones available to you and I?

There is no way to tell, because we don't know which powder they are using in any given lot of factory ammo. Even if we did know, that wouldn't tell us how close it is to the cannistered powder of the same name which we can get.

Factories pressure and velocity test the powders they use, each time they get a new batch, to adjust their charges so performance falls within the range(s) they think acceptable for the cartridge(s) being loaded. By doing that, they can use a great variety of powders in the same cartridges and we'll never know the difference. That is a good thing, too, because it enables them to save money on powders, and keeps the ammo a bit less expensive for us than it would be if they didn't.

I will simply say this take it for what it's worth . Powder manufactures don't make special

formulas or concoctions for Factory Ammo manufactures . It's all a standard or blended ready made

off the shelf powder . Only in Bulk bin containers instead of cans or drums .

The trick is in the tracer elements to identify " Every Powder " manufactured .

This is not to say for example factory shotgun shells powders may be a duplex load .

WWAA used to be exactly that a Duplex ( Not talking shot here ) Powder load .

Some times an Ammo manufacturer will ask for a specific shape or cut which is pretty normal

for a particular type of powder . Which would NOT be available to the general public .

If any of you have ever chronographed a Factory Load did it match the speed as advertised ?.

Many will not . That's another story in it's self .

A post from another discussion .


Please remember a Factory load will or should not ever be as fast as a Hand load .

Think for a moment WHY .


Buzz !! Times up ; Factory loads must function in all said guns of that caliber .

So an average FPS is advertised from a Test Barrel under near perfect conditions .

Factory isn't in the business of risky business . it's in the Money business .

Blown chambers bring Law Suits which tend to cut profits greatly , not to mention negative

unwanted attention !.

Doc224/375


Nobody has said that the powder manufacturers make special powders for ammo manufacturers. But since you bring it up, yes they do. There are factory cartridges available from time to time (usually at their introduction as a new cartridge) which use powders not yet released on the general market as cannistered products. IMR 7828 was a perfect example of that. It was used by ammo manufacturers long before it was released to handloaders as a cannistered item.
(The same thing happened before that with both IMR 4064, then IMR 4350, BTW.)


The main point however is that though manufacturers try to make powders exactly the same as control lots of the various designations, that simply does not always turn out to have been successful when a particular batch is "finished". They still do sell the powder to ammo factories, though, even despite its having a slightly different set of characteristics when burned. Sometimes it is enough different they will even designate it differently on an unofficial basis.

For the loading factories it is no problem...they are equipped with labs and professionally trained staff to test the powder for use with their other components and to adjust charges as required to get the desired performance. Charges using one batch may commonly therefore vary as much as a couple of grains from another batch to get the same performance. On rare occasions they have varied much more than that historically.

As there is no reliable way for handloaders to equate their "lot" of powder's performance to the factory's lot, nor vice-versa, it is simply safer to work up loads in one's own gun and not even try to copy what the factories used in a particular run of ammo. The manufacturers recognize that, which is why they don't release their data.

Handloaders need to recognize it too. (We've all seen the guy who insists that despite everything his gun is telling him, his rifle should be getting the advertised velocities of the XYZ-Boomer Magnum and tries to load acordingly, refusing to recognize he may have a "slow" barrel and is already at a safe maximum load for it. Well, there is no sense telling him that the factory used 48 grains of "Z" powder just to compound the situation....)

Why would winchester NOT use winchester powder??? Especialy for the classic loads that it was designed for.. I expect that their own brand of powder would be available to them at a lower cost than other brands.. Maybe Im wrong. Maybe someone here has a Win factory load that they wouldnt mind pulling the bullet to see if it is ball powder?? That would be at least a clue.

The August, 20008, issue of HandLoader magazine had an article on Winchester Supreme 780 that furnished the following:

"...it is a standardization of a powder long used by Winchester in a number of factory centerfire rifle cartridges, specifically in its Supreme line including the .243 Winchester, .270 Winchester and .300 Winchester Magnum."

Maybe a little bit of insight.

Pull the bullet and weigh the charge.I did this with my 7mm STW.I did a little research on Winchester's web site,figured out what powder they used and was able to duplicate the factory load of 3450fps with a Winchester 150gr Power Point.

I don't claim to know what winchester is using in there loadings either, But I would bet W-748 would be real good in the 7mm08.
I have used it in the .308 in more rifles than I can count and I never seem to have any problems getting excelent results.
Most folks say varget and or RL-15, I have used them alot too but I have had some rifles that don't like either of those powders, and never yet have I had one that would,nt shoot well with W-748.
In the .270 you might try W-760.
...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by 30378:
Ammo manufactuers do not publish the load data they put into commercially loaded rounds.

True and anyone that says they know should be treated with great suspect......

Further the powder used today may not be the powder used next month.....

Exactly. They could very well be using Data powder unavailable to us reloaders.

Don

Alberta Canuck
one of us

Posted 20 November 2008 23:28 Hide Post
Doc224/375


Nobody has said that the powder manufacturers make special powders for ammo manufacturers. But since you bring it up, yes they do. There are factory cartridges available from time to time (usually at their introduction as a new cartridge) which use powders not yet released on the general market as cannistered products. IMR 7828 was a perfect example of that. It was used by ammo manufacturers long before it was released to handloaders as a cannistered item.
(The same thing happened before that with both IMR 4064, then IMR 4350, BTW.)

The above stated is correct

AC;I don't wish to dispute or debate an issue concerning powder manufacture .

You are correct stating Ammo manufactures ask Powder manufactures for a specific burn rate and shape for

pressure and velocity requirements concerning their needs . However Ammo manufactures don't make powders .

They do test powders developed by manufactures in test barrels so as to stay within SAAMI Specs as required .

To manufacture powder is an " Extensive " licensing process to say the least .( Hence most have moved out of the country ).

Newly developed powders were done so mainly for Ammo manufactures at one time , now days ?. I don't know as I'm

no longer associated with them . It could be for the reloading market which is ever increasingly popular now .

Powder manufactures hold a 3% tolerance on batch lots , if a batch is not within spec it may be recycled but

generally not . It's simply " Doctored " if need be too another Burn Rate and or re labeled accordingly .

There isn't a single Gun Powder manufactured which can't be identified . NOT ONE !.

One time I had a list of powders used in almost every small arms weapons of the world , it's still with me some

where I just haven't seen it in several years . BATFE FBI and other Data bases contain this very information .

http://www.saami.org/ . I don't understand why it would be important to " ANYONE " other than the Ammo

manufactures to duplicate factory loads . Hand loading in 97% case will exceed factory specs .

Remember Ammo manufactures MUST stay with in SAAMI Specs for reliability interchangeability Quality as well as SAFETY !.

The problem with most handload guides they ALWAYS error on the LOW SIDE . As most hand loaders don't own

pressure sensors or conformal transducer your stuck with Published data for known values . Not every chamber

is the same or head space or barrel or length . So variables exist . I personally find the fastest projectile is

most often the least accurate . The 5% uncontrollable factor known as , WTF happened on that one ?.


3% powder 2% Primer ( Match ) then there are case prep chambers and the reloader .

For Everyone's info . The best groupings I've ever achieved had an average of 100+ FPS spread . #15 rounds

I've also loaded to as little as 11 FPS extreme spread on #15 with disasters results in regards to accuracy !.

Quite the conundrum isn't it . Please remember to re load SAFELY .

http://www.chuckhawks.com/pressure_measurement.htm

He's baaaaaack! What was it Doctor K Carbon