quick question:

yesterday at the range, I shot two rounds of 30 06 with 220 grain core lokts off hand at a 4x4 section of pressure treated lumber to see what sort of results I would get.

Both shots penetrated the wood completely and continued into the berm behind. I dug and found the bulelts. the first retained most of the rear section and expanded to about .75". the other blew its core but retained its shape for the most part.

what kind of a step up results in performance from the use of premium bullets? on deer sized game does it matter? what about heavier game? I imagine such wood offers greater resistance than bone?

i.m.o.
it is a velocity/ penetration issue.
and over 3000 is the deciding factor for me.
i have torn up some meat with premiums at high vel with premiums.
i'll take the 2850 and a good standard bullet thanks.

In my experience premium bullets are not needed for deer sized game. Core Lokts, Hornady Interlocs, etc work well. I think the cheaper bullets actually perform better on smaller game than the premiums as they open up easier and dump more energy into the animal.

On heavier, tougher animals I use premium bullets and I wouldn't even think of shooting DG or moose, elk, etc with a Hornady Interloc or the like when there are bullets like the TSX, North Fork, A-Frame, etc available. Here's a pic of a 270 gr .375 cal TSX that I shot a buff with and had 100% weight retention after 4-5 feet of penetration. Can't ask for better than that.

is that why they say one can afford to go down a notch in bullet weight?

quote:

how much of a difference is there with premiums?

I fully agree that with deer size game the benefit may not be worth the cost....

I also agree that the faster one shoots his bullets the benefit increases.....

I just returned from a "cheap" non resident elk hunt.....cost was in the range of $4,000....and for that I'll invest another $25 in premium bullets everytime....besides they will be here next year too as I don't shoot them all the time.

I agree with vapodog I use sierra game kings mostly all the time but in my 7 mag and .270 WSM I shoot bonded bullets and feel they do better with the slight increase in speed I get with the mag calibers.

Vapo how you do on that elk romp?

quote:

Vapo how you do on that elk romp?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Vapo how you do on that elk romp?

SUPER

That 220 grain corelokt bullet is more than is needed even on elk. With the 06 a premiumm bullet isn't going to make them any deader or buy you more insurance. if we were talking 180 gr. 30 cal. bullet at 3000 fps Nosler might be the answer. Over that a better premium might do better, "Might". roger

I used to hunt with people here who handloaded 7mm Noslers to the point where they totally wrecked deer's shoulders resulting in a lot of spoilage.

does anyone know the low end speed where a core lokt will still give reliable expansion on deer sized game?

Shooting into wood or steel or dirt or whatever, is NOT a measure of the bullets ability to penetrate muscle & bone. Your bullet choice should be matched to the impact vel., bore size & the size of game. The faster you drive a bullet, the greater need for a "premium" bullet to withstand high, above 2600fps, impact vel. The bullet is THE CHEAPEST PART of a hunt, why worry about that cost?

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
I used to hunt with people here who handloaded 7mm Noslers to the point where they totally wrecked deer's shoulders resulting in a lot of spoilage.

does anyone know the low end speed where a core lokt will still give reliable expansion on deer sized game?

The size of the bullet will determine that. You also have to define "premium" bullet. I consider the NP a premium bullet. Even when driven @ very high impact vel. the rear still holds together & penetrates but you are likely to get massive bloodshot meat from a impact vel. over 2600fps. The front core is very soft & often frags much beyond that 2600fps. At least IME w/ 140gr/7mm & 210gr/338 & 165gr/308. Bullets like the TSX are entirely diff. I've only fired one X into an animal & it was a complet pass thru @ 40yds on a zebra, 210gr @ 2750fps. It showed little signs of expansion after going thru a shoulder.

yeah, Fred these were NPs and it was always a mess... I would be curious to witness an X bullet perform.

I did not figure the wood block was necessarily going to behave like animal tissue, but it was impressive penetration to see with those core lokts.

I think there are about a million opinions about this stuff. When it comes to deer hunting,
As far as I am concerned, accuracy, is about everything.
I say about, cause to much bullet can be a bad thing.
A 175 grain partition from a 7 mag will not likly expand much on a deer. But If i am shooting a 160 grain bullet at about 3000, I don't really care weather its a partition or a corlocked.
It should do real well.
Now for a bigger animal, I want somthing that will hold up better.
Stick with a 7 mag, and Elk with a 175 grain bullet at about 2850 to 2900 a Hornady interlock or a speer hot core should do fine, but if I plan to use a 160 grain bullet at 3000 or a little faster,
I,ll take an acubond a partition or a tripple shock.
The interbond or corlocks might do fine but if you hit a shoulder joint or get a bad angle, you might be tracking a wounded elk for a long long time.
the so called premium bullet improves your odds when the shot is less than Ideal.
...tj3006

Nice elk Vapo! Have you posted the story. Sorry to change subject on thread.

I use premium bullets for all hunting. They are actually cheap compared to having one fail on me.

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:
I use premium bullets for all hunting. They are actually cheap compared to having one fail on me.

I couldn't agree more.

Surprise but some premium bullets may just be the wrong thing at slower velocities. What a totally unsophisticated statment. did I say that? roger Oh my.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Surprise but some premium bullets may just be the wrong thing at slower velocities. What a totally unsophisticated statment. did I say that? roger Oh my.

Totally agree with bartsche. Cartridge and expected impact velocity are the real desiding factors. Deer ar not really hard to kill. I've never had, nor seen, a regular bullet that was appropriate for the use at hand "fail" on deer or elk when used out of a standard cartridge with a muzzle velocity of less than 3000 fps.

Larry Gibson

On elk, I have. My buddy took a good size 5pt bull w/ a 06 & 180grST. The elk died, but the bullet fragmented & did not completely penetrate on a broadside 100yd shot that took a rib going in. That's an impact vel. of what, 2500fps? I'm sure that bullet would have been about perfect for a big buck deer, but was marginal on elk. So I'm a believer in premium bullets for impact vel. above 2600fps especially on heavier game, or for DG where you must have penetration from any reasonable angle.

a 220gr in a 30-06 is going what, 23-2400fps? Premium isnt gonna net you any gains at that velocity, in fact a really tough bullet has a good chance of penciling through with no expansion when you figure impact velocity might be 2000fps or under. The bigger and tougher the game, and the faster the bullets going, the tougher the bullet IMO. I shoot Fail Safe's and will be working with TSX's for next year. But, I don't shoot whitetail, if I did, I'd probably go plain jane.

When I shoot a bullet at an animal I will be using North Forks, Nosler partition, Barnes and Swift A-Frames, in that order, depending on how the barrel likes the bullet. I used everything under the sun prior to reloading, now I get to choose what does the job best. Good shooting.

Just a little story . During WW II nobody was going to use there gas or rubber to go hunting. Especially since the game was wintering in their fields and barn yards. Just after the war they were hauling starved carcasses out of the high lands in Colorado and elsewhere.
A friend of mine was a young teen whose dad was a guide and outfiter in the Colburn area.
In one day in an spot they call the meadows which is now Vega resevoir he shot 12 elk out of a milling herd. His dad was really pissed off that he hadn't shot one more and filled all the tags of the hunters he was guiding and allow him to sleep in the next day. These Elk were all shot with an 06 and 180 grain factory ammo. Not sure what this really says but at least it indicates that premium bullets were not needed that day. roger

I carry insurance on my vehicles and on my life. I shoot NP's at everything as I like that EXTRA little bit of insurance vs a standard cup and core slug. I know what the partitions CAN and CAN'T do. though I do agree that deer are NOT hard to kill. But I can encounter ELK as well as deer when I hunt the General big game season here in MT.

IF hunting only deer I use my .257 Roberts AI with standard Hornady 115's.

As previously mentioned....WHY not spend a few extra bucks considering the TOTAL cost of a hunting trip?

FN in MT

Well I like to use Partitions when hunting trophy animals and like to use enough gun. However I have found that heavy bullets at medium velocities tend to work perfectly as well.

I think the big debate between vanilla and premium bullets comes down to the type of hunting you do. For the guys who have close proximity to their hunting grounds and have seasons that are several weeks, if not months long, with several tags per household, smaller calibers and cheapo bullets are just fine. You have many chances at many deer. For the rest of us, hunting might be a few days in a far off location, with high costs of tags, getting to the hunt, having the equipment...like FN said, its insurance. I get 5 days, once a year, for one animal that often times doesnt like to cooperate lol I want a bullet that I have confidence in taking nearly any shot angle (minues the texas heart shot or gut shots of course) and a variety of ranges. Thats why you see TSX and Fail Safe in my reloading notes

First off, we as a family all use Nosler Partitions for Deer here in Michigan, with excellent results too; many Deer dropped with that bullet in 7mm rifles. Is that bullet overkill? Maybe...
I like Lamar's cmt about 2850 and a cup and core bullet working, for our Deer kill distances, which are almost always less than 100 yards. There were a WHOLE lot of Deer killed years ago with nothing but cup and core bullets when guys used iron sights and shots were less than 100 yards. Scopes weren't available back then, when I was a kid...
I killed my first Deer with a Rem 722 in 300 Savage using a Rem core lock bullet I loaded up, in 1950, with iron sights, at 110 yards.

Don

Great Pictures. Elk skull and horns. Those bullets must be pretty tuff. I once shot a 458 Lott SP bullet threw 8" of oak and bullet kept on going.

Nice elk Vapo!