Hi ya'll!

I've been reading these forums for quite a while, and have learned a great deal about reloading; I am a novice and have just started to get into the game.

Though I am well versed in firearms and own and use a great many of them (mostly bolt action, shotguns and black powder) I have decided to start reloading for my 300 WSM Browning Stainless Steel Stalker. Price of factory ammo is getting a little stiff.

Anyway, sorry for rambling here, but my question is about crimping the bullet. I have read that if your going to use a bullet for hunting, it should be crimped, rather than just seated into the neck of the case. Now most bullets that I have been looking at do not have a groove in them, and in order to crimp them they must have this "groove". Or so it is written.....

When I look at the various factory loads (Winchester Power points, Federal Fusion, Remington Coreloks, etc) I don't see a "crimp" per say, it just looks like the bullet is simply pressed into the case.

Do I really need to worry about crimping the bullet into the case if I'm planning to hunt with it? If I have to, how in the world to I crimp bullets that have no groove manufactured in them for crimping?

Kindest Regards,

-Will in Maryland

Others may disagree, I've loaded for 3o+ years, many 10,000s (mostly centerfire varmint) & have not crimped a round yet, except 357 & 44 Mag that will be shot in revolvers. I don't shoot semi auto hand guns, but they I believe would need crimping.

Hello Will! Welcome to AR.

No, do not crimp your 300 WSM.

Those "grooves" in bullets are called cannalures and are designed to lock the jacket to the core in the manufacturing process. In certain bullet designs the grooves are called "driving bands" and are used to reduce pressure because of less bullet bearing surface.

You can not roll crimp without a cannulure and limited taper crimp. You would crimp on heavy recoiling magazine rifles to keep the bullets in-place in the magazine, but not on a heavy recoiling single shot. You could crimp on an auto loader for feeding relaibility.

Generally the less neck tension the better accuracy. This is why there is an advantage to bushing type sizing dies and neck sizing only.

So, carry-on. You're heading in the right direction.

there's only two places to crimp
1. heavy revolver loads.....
2. lever actions rounds going into tubular magazines


Some may insist on crimping heavy recoiling rounds in a double rifle as well.....but this is a specialty

Like the others here......I almost never crimp.....even 375 H&H I don't crimp!!!

Dont be confused. No Crimp

Well I have to disagree. I crimp almost everything but only with the
Lee Factory Crimp Die!

Another discussion on crimping.

In every caliber that I have done a loaded-at-the-same-time/shot-at-the-same-time comparison on identical loads where only crimping was the difference, the crimped loads have shot an average of 10 fps faster and the groups have been an average of 1/8" less. Not much, but why not.

I disagree that less neck tension means more accuracy. I think it is more consistant bullet release that means more accuracy.

BTW, the LFCD does not require a cannelure and you can crimp with different overall case lengths. You can put a light to heavy crimp as you wish. It is fool proof.

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:
Dont be confused. No Crimp

D'ats what I say too.

I agree with Woods.

The Lee FCDs are great, I own quite a few of them and actually find them to give more consistent accuracy than non-crimped loads. I only lightly crimp my rounds.

No cannelure is needed for a crimp with the Lee FCD. Even when I use bullets with a cann most of the time the cann is not in the right place for the proper OAL so I crimp out of the cann quite often.

You don't have to crimp but, it can be quite advantageous to your loads. It certainly doesn't hurt anything regardless what anyone says. I've even had the Lee FCD give better accuracy with certain loads in target rigs.

Good Luck

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:

The Lee FCDs are great, I own quite a few of them and actually find them to give more consistent accuracy than non-crimped loads. I only lightly crimp my rounds.

No cannelure is needed for a crimp with the Lee FCD. Even when I use bullets with a cann most of the time the cann is not in the right place for the proper OAL so I crimp out of the cann quite often.

You don't have to crimp but, it can be quite advantageous to your loads. It certainly doesn't hurt anything regardless what anyone says. I've even had the Lee FCD give better accuracy with certain loads in target rigs.

Every one of those points is correct.

Saeed did tests on this, and his results also show a small but significant increase in accuracy when the loads are crimped with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. (This is a different crimp method and result from what is achieved using a standard seating die to give a crimp.)

With the Lee Factory Crimp Die no cannelure is needed on the bullet in order to get a crimp.

See Saeed's results at:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

Saeed's results are intriguing; unfortunately my limited experiments with the Lee FCD were very poor using .223, 22-250 and 30-06. I may have been using it wrong or setting too tight of a crimp or whatever, but I gave up using it for rifle rounds. Pistol rounds, OTOH, are a different story, especially heavy revolver loads.

Will,

Make another post on this topic on the "Reloading Forum" for additional feedback.

quote:

Those "grooves" in bullets are called cannalures and are designed to lock the jacket to the core in the manufacturing process. In certain bullet designs the grooves are called "driving bands" and are used to reduce pressure because of less bullet bearing surface.

Well, no. The cannelure IS for crimping only, not to retain the bullet core. It may also serve that function, but it is there to allow a roll crimp. I have some Nosler partitions w/ a cannelure, (made for Federal) it can't help the core in that bullet at all. I only crimp heavy kickers like .404j or 458 in rifles. I crimp all my handgun ammo, either roll or taper depending on the cart. I hear so much about the LEE FCD, I may have to give it a try.

I crimp every thing! 458WM to 6mm rem

quote:

cannelure

I personally don’t crimp anything other than magnum pistol rounds and rounds for tubular magazine level action guns. If I owned a big boomer bolt action or double barrel 375, 458, etc. I would crimp them too but I don’t own one.

I have found that neck tension alone to be more than adequate for all my rounds, others than the ones I mentioned.

If crimping gives you a feeling of security, better accuracy, or just because the cannelure is there than go for it, more power to you.

Make sure that your brass is all trimmed to the same length though. If you don’t crimp at the same tension, you’ll never have consistent ammunition. Brass that’s a little short will produce a light crimp and brass that’s a little long will produce a heavy crimp which will mess up your shot start pressures.

quote:

Originally posted by Willltill:
I have read that if your (sic) going to use a bullet for hunting, it should be crimped, rather than just seated into the neck of the case.

Exactly where did you read this mantra?

I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die on all the medium bore and up centerfire rifle hunting cartridges I reload. Lee will custom make a FCD for non-listed cartridges as well (such as the 350RM). Even something as light as a standard velocity 180gr 30-06 will beat dents into the front of the metal mag box in a bolt rifle from recoil. This can move bullets when uncrimped. Over the long haul, I get better results using the Lee FCD.

GVA

Wow! Thanks to all so far whom have posted! Initially the replies started off as not needing to crimp, but then additional posters qulaified the need to crimp.

I didn't realize that I posted this in the wrong forum, maybe a moderator can "move it" into the reloading forum ???

I have purchased the Lee Anniversary kit, as well as a Lyman tumbler and a couple of other implements. Still am waiting for a bullet puller (since I know that I will make some mistakes initially) and am just about ready to begin my first try at reloading. I'be bought an assortment of powders (Hodgdon H414, Alliant H19, and IMR 4350) as well as CCI and Remington large rifle primers. Also have saved my Winchester brass and bought Nosler 180gr Accubonds and Barnes XXX 180gr boattails.

This go around, I will not be crimping, I want to reload about 5 rounds of varying bullet/powder combinations (using the powder charts, of course) and then go from there. I need a benchmark of sorts to base my future reload recipes.

Thank all of you VERY much, I have learned so much from this forum/board as well as some other boards out on the internet. As soon as this "neophyte" get's started, I hope to contribute/comment as well on this art.

Kindest regards,

-Will in Maryland

Here is a good article on this topic written for SCI by Terry Blauwkamp who runs Superior Ammunition:

http://www.scidetroit.com/bulletseating.htm

Here is a discussion/debate between Bart Bobbitt and Ed Harris on using the Lee Factory Crimp Die for increased accuracy in competition rifles.

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/crimping.html

GVA

There are 2 things in common about people that crimp or don’t crimp rounds. They all have an “A†hole and they all have opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

Make sure that your brass is all trimmed to the same length though. If you don’t crimp at the same tension, you’ll never have consistent ammunition. Brass that’s a little short will produce a light crimp and brass that’s a little long will produce a heavy crimp which will mess up your shot start pressures.

This is true if you use the standard seating die to produce a roll-type crimp. It is NOT true for the Lee factory Crimp Die, which works on a different principle, and is not sensitive to case length.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
Here is a good article on this topic written for SCI by Terry Blauwkamp who runs Superior Ammunition:

http://www.scidetroit.com/bulletseating.htm

Here is the central statement on this question from the Blauwkamp article:

"A much finer apparatus is to use the LEE Factory Crimp Die. They are not very expensive, and work like a charm. You must, however purchase a specific one for each caliber, as they squeeze the top edge of the case into the cannelure very nicely. If a case is a bit shorter or longer than the other, it matters little."

_________

To crimp or not to crimp? That is the question.

The answer is, it depends.

Many of the circumstances in which a crimp is required have been mentioned: pistol bullets, heavy recoiling rifle bullets, and those used in tubular magazines. Auto loading pistol bullets require a taper crimp, while revolver bullets can be roll crimped. (Auto loaders head space on the forward edge of the case.) The following discussion is limited to rifle bullets.

As mentioned by some of posters above, neck tension has been determined by benchrest shooters to be a critical element in consistency. I have observed this in some experiments that I have done in which the neck was lubed in some cases (to facilitate the passage of the decapping stem) as compared with un-lubed cases.

When I crimp (must crimp), I use a Lee crimping die. When used properly with a bullet that has a cannelure, in will squeeze the case neck every so gently into the grove and hold the bullet there. You only need to press the case into the grove to achieve a crimp.

I have at least one wildcat cartridge, which is a big bore, hard recoiling, hunting cartridge, that must be crimped. I have found that, for whatever reasons, I do better if I decap using a universal decapping die, pull the decapping stem from the resizing die, and resize. This squeezes the neck down, but does not "open" it back up. I then seat the bullets and crimp using the Lee die. It provides both a good grip and a uniform grip on the bullet.

I have considered decapping with my universal decapper and resizing without the stem with other cartridges based upon my discovery that lube in the neck results in significant variations in velocity and accuracy. The removal of the stem results in an extra tight hold for bullets that don't require crimping (which does not seem to be an issue), and provides uniformity in neck tension.

One more point. Neck tension is also impacted by use. As you may know, resizing can "push" brass up into the neck increasing tension. This is one reason to neck size most of the time with an occasional full length sizing for the good of the order, ie, to put everything back to zero, so to speak. However, any neck that is split or partially split will clearly not provide uniform neck tension. Similarly, when cases begin to show these signs, discard the lot if you are striving for max accuracy.

With the stem out, the neck tension is generally tight enough to retain all but the heaviest recoiling cartridges.

Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by Willltill:

This go around, I will not be crimping, I want to reload about 5 rounds of varying bullet/powder combinations (using the powder charts, of course) and then go from there. I need a benchmark of sorts to base my future reload recipes.

Even though I'm in favor of crimping using the Lee Factory Crimp Die, I think you've made the best decision here. Start without doing it and work up a load that you like. After that you can crimp some of those loads to see whether there is any improvement and whether you like the results.

Well, just got done reloading my very first batch of bullets for my .300 WSM. Now I just got to get to the range. Hope they work!

Recipes:

1. Alliant Reloder 19 powder (64.3 grains) with CCI BR LR primers, pre-fired Winchester case and Nosler accubonds (180 grain)

2. Alliant Reloder 19 powder (64.3 grains) with CCI BR LR primers, pre-fired Winchester case and Barnes XXX Boattails (180 grain)

Screwed up the first 6 shells, forgot to size the necks before I primed them. Couldnt size the necks after that since the die also has a de-primer tool in it; didn't want to take the chance of the primer igniting in the die/press as I was trying to de-prime it.

It's amazing how much of the bullet is in the shell, the charge isn't compressed but it's close to it. I think that I am going to get the Lee crimping die, I have doubts about the bullet holding it's position in the neck of the case. Especially when the 300 WSM starts recoiling and eating my shoulder with each pull of the trigger. I will be carefully checking the length of the reloaded bullets in the magazine after each round goes down range. This will definitely tell me if the crimp is indeed needed.

And thanks to all of you for your replies about crimping; I definitely appreciate your insight(s).

Kindest regards,

-Will in Maryland

Also a couple of comments about the Lee anniversary components; if you all would like to know;

The "Perfect Powder measurer" is not really that perfect; it's close though. I weighed each charge on the Lee Safety Powder scale and found that I had to add or remove several grains 2 out of three times, to get to the desired weight. The measuring scale on the Perfect Powder Measurer is not accurate either, hence the need to weigh each powder charge with the scale. Hope the scale is accurate itself....

I had to grind away the openings on the Lee priming tool itself (where it holds the auto prime shell holder)so it would accept the 300 WSM case; the shell holder would fit the tool and accept the case, but the tool was not wide enough itself to accept the case.

The little powder funnel that cane with the kit spilled powder all over when attempting to use it with the 300 WSM shell, I ended up making a paper funnel to "funnel" the powder from the plastic funnel.

The little chamfer bit that is supposed to clean up the inside and tyhe outside of the shell after trimming and sizing works OK on the inside of the shell, but doesn't have the depth to reach the outside shell edges (due to the way that the 300 WSM shell is designed).

Every other component works satisfactorily; certainly a little yankee intervention and American ingenuity made the kit work.

Kindest regards,

-Will in Maryland

Hello Will,

Make a note to research "case neck annealing". I won't go into here, but it is an important process to understand.

Yes, I've read about that. It's when you heat the neck of the case to make it softer? Let me take "baby" steps first Lol!

Kindest Regards,

-Will in Maryland

I learned alot from this post,
the only rifle I crimp for now is my 45,70. But after reading this post I might look into the lee crimp die.
mabye for my 25,06. I don't know a thing about them but it seems to me the same die properly adjusted shoud crimp my .257 robers cases too ? or am i wrong.
As to the origional question . You sure don't need to crimp but it sounds like it might improve your accuacy if you do.
...tj3006

This is about rifles only ----I crimp for 2 firearms types

1. To prevent a bullet from being puched back into the case in a tube magazine.

2. To prevent an autoloader from pushing the bullet back into the case when it cycles.

In both cases (bad pun) I use a cannelured bullet.

I am not sure how any process that deforms the bullet jacket can help accuracy.

Hey ireload

With a light crimp or even a medium one I don't think the deformation will have any affect on accuracy. If you think about it a cannelure is a deformation of the bullet surface and the Triple Shock bullets are really deformed. A crimp line would be (I'm just guessing here) 1/1000th the size of a cannelure line.

And also the lands of the rifle engrave the surface deeply and the crimp would pale in comparison to that.

The part of the crimping process that helps accuracy is the increase in consistancy of bullet release.

Again this is all JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:

I might look into the lee crimp die.
mabye for my 25,06. I don't know a thing about them but it seems to me the same die properly adjusted shoud crimp my .257 robers cases too ? or am i wrong.

Sorry, but the Lee Crimp die is cartridge specific, meaning that one for the 25-06 will not work for a .257 Roberts.

quote:

I may have been using it wrong or setting too tight of a crimp or whatever, but I gave up using it for rifle rounds.

Funny you should say that, I was at the range a while back and this guy was putting what he called a "turn and a half" crimp on his rounds. That is, he'd screw the FCD in until it contacted the shell holder then another 1.5 turns I looked at his loaded rounds and yep, he sure had a dandy crimp. (I'm surprised lead wasn't squeezing out of the jacket )

I think you could do harm by putting too much of a crimp on your loads. On my target shooting rigs I only put about a 1/3 of a turn on the die once it contacts the SH. Sometimes less, somtimes more. I let the feel of resistance on the press dictate the amount.

Like I said, you don't have to have a crimp but, it can help in some instances and doesn't hurt for sure.

Good Luck

Reloader

Another method for reloading for a semi-automatic is to intentionally use an undersized expander button to increase case neck tension.

Or atleast that has always worked for me loading UN-cannelured noslers in 30-06 for a Remington autoloader.

AllanD

The Lee Factory crimp die improved accuracy for my loads, especially heavy slow-powder loads in the 7mm Rem Mag. I use them now on almost all my rifle loads.

I think that if there is a negative impact on accuracy it would be most likely if you did a heavy crimp that was near the front or rear of the part of the bullet that contacts the bore, which might impact bullet alignment.

RCBS/Speer did ads a while back damning the Lee FCD....saying it reduced accuracy. The example in the picture was heavily crimped at the very back of what looked like a 150g or 165g .308 bullet. I'm not sure it wasn't just sour grapes on their part.

I suggest you get and try the FCD. If it helps accuracy in your gun you'll be glad. If it doesn't you're not out much money.

Cheers,

Dan