Your poll has the wrong cartridge listed on the first choice.

I like the WSM's. They made them for customers like me who would rather not have belted cartridges.

I think Winchester may do well with the new .325WSM, it will deliver a 220gr. package at meaningful velocties and should be plenty or North American game. Time will tell.

I honestly think they should have made a .358 WSM and marketed it as a powerful short action woods cartridge for bears and elk/moose. It might give up some sectional density to the .338 caliber projectiles, but bullet weight for bullet weight the .358 would be a little faster. And no one is going to argue too much about the penetration of a 250gr. .358 bullet. Another (minor) advantage would be slightly more rome to load out heavy bullets over the .338. 250gr. .358 pills are a little shorter than 250gr. .388 bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Your poll has the wrong cartridge listed on the first choice.

I like the WSM's. They made them for customers like me who would rather not have belted cartridges.

Ditto.

My mistake

I should of written 325 WSM

Same question, ignore my screw up

I think all the short mags are B.S. What bothers me the most is that the factory ballistics are false and misleading.

500 gr-You are right, my buddies .300 wsm chronographs 200 fps slower than listed in the Nosler book. The factory loads however came out good. Working on a new load.

The whole WSM line is garbage. If you want an 8mm Magnum, buy an 8x68S or an 8mm Rem Mag. If action length is a concern then an 8x64

Aleko

The 338 Win. Mag is superior in every way.

I find the short bolt-throw/action "advantages" and beltless "advantage" to be a farce that's best left to the pilgrims to enjoy and fuss over. I'm going hunting with the belted-magnums I already have, and since I haven't had any problems with such cartridges for nearly thirty years, I suspect I won't this season, either. I won't be staying up nights worrying about it, that's for darned sure.

There are countless guys who have literally hunted the world for many years with standard belted magnums -- and without problems -- and most of these guys that I've talked to think all of the WSM propaganda is a rather lame and pathetic joke.

We'll let the benchrest cowboys and weekend hobbyists and theorists scream bloody murder over belted cases -- we're going hunting.

They had a program on the History Channel the other night tracing the history of magnum handgun and rifle rounds. A significant part of the program was devoted to the use of the (belted, 1963-version) 300 Win. Mag. by U.S. Army riflemen at Fort Benning, GA. This isn't old history, it's current stuff, mind you, and the 300 Win. Mag. rifles these men were using were as modern and sophisticated as they get. Now, if the belted case was such a big, bad ogre, these guys wouldn't be using it.........

AD

I personally see no use for one that already existing cartridges can't do better.
Only purpose I see is just to own something different.

I would take a 300mag, 8mm Rem Mag, or 338 any day.

we seem to have a whole lot of new redundant cartridges....IMO they offer us very little if anything at all.

I hope you don't mind my editing the poll to reflect what you meant.

I agree, anything calling for more then a 30 caliber or under cartridge calls for at least a 338 win mag.

I'm sure the new chambering will develop a small but very loyal cult following just as the 350 rem mag has.

The gun companies are just like soda companies, they need to come out with new flavors to bolster sales.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:

The gun companies are just like soda companies, they need to come out with new flavors to bolster sales.

If they came out with good quality gun designs that would do a lot more for sales.

The WSM’s and WSSM’s are just what the shooting public needs, especially when they deliver. WHICH THEY DO! They might be funny looking but I imagine that the .308 Win. would look funny to a bunch of buffalo hunters back in the 1860’s. Lawdog

quote:

If they came out with good quality gun designs that would do a lot more for sales.

AMEN 500grs. They need to put the R&D money the big companies are spending into quality control and make better and more consistent guns. I'm all for something new and being different but quality and function have to come first.

Long term it hurts the new shooters the most and we need the new blood if our sport is going to survive. A new shooter who thinks he/she wants to take up shooting goes to the local store and buys a rifle in brand X. Spends what is for him/her a good bit of change. Takes it to the range and first off the gun is hard to use. The safety sticks and the bolt need a hammer to persuade it to move. The trigger is so stiff that holding the gun steady is difficult. The best group is more like a shotgun pattern. The advice he/she gets is it need to go to a smith to get it working and that it is "normal" to do this. Discouraged the gun goes into the closet and there it sits until he/she gives it away to a friend who experiences the same frustrations.

Besides the continued loss of accessible hunting ground IMO this is the biggest problem new shooters and hunters experience. Every time this happens we loose a supporter of our sport.

It may benefit the gun manufactures in the short term but the long term out look is certainly not what they care about. A factory gun should function 100% out of the box.

When we accept the lousy quality the manufacturers are selling us we only contribute to the problem. I’m as guilty of this as anyone. I expect and accept that a new rifle will not work right form the factory and will require time and money to get it to be a functioning rifle. If Win, Rem, Ruger, CZ, Savage, Marlin, Browning, Tika…. need a higher price to be able to produce good guns 100% of the time then so be it. That money is spent after the purchase anyway.

I’m sure I won’t but do this all the time but I’m going to send back any gun that is not functioning properly from the box. Sure I’ll add my favorite touches afterwards but the gun should shoot and if not they get it back.

Rant off - Sorry for the hijacking of the thread now back to the issue.

The 325 is a waste of time IMO. There are other cartridges that can do everything it does and more already available. This is simply a marketing ploy.

While I still own and shoot belted magnums I appreciate the advantages of the rimless bottlenecked cartridge.

Some here seem to get worked up over the WSM's. I find them outstanding cartridges. The sales of new guns finds that they sell well.

The last list of die sales finds the 300 WM slipping off the page. It's all fun however.

To each his own.

Needed niche.. Hmm, there is a debatable subject in itself. Has there really been a "needed" niche for anything cartridge in the last 40 years? Its not about what we need, its about what we want.

What I like about the WSM's are that (1- they have an ideal powder capacity for 7mm's through 8mm (IMO). (2- they finally put the ixnay on the idiotic, worthless, snake oil, "Magnum Belt" (talk about redundant ). Thats something the Euros figured out a long time ago.

The 325 WSM is no more Redundant BS than a 338 WSM would have been. The real BS is all of the keyboard experts who think they know more about designing a cartridge than those who dedicate hundreds of man hours and thousands of dollars to it.

Someone mentioned not being able to realize Nosler published velocities from a WSM. Have you tried doing it with 90% of the rest of their data? Talk about feeding the public with BS..

What I find truly humourous are all of the antis who seemingly feel so threatened by the "funny looking" new cartridges. Why all the fuss? If you dont want one then dont get one, no one is forcing anyone to buy what they dont want. Name any new product at all that isnt hyped up to promote sales, if that seems out of line then you simply havent been paying attention.

Hey gang there was a discussion about the short mags going on over in the Canadian hunting forum. If you get a minute take a look if you feel so inclined.

Have a super day

MD

I have nothing against the .325wsm, just wish it had been a .333wsm.

I can like the 300 wsm as a hot 30-06 in a .308 sized package, and I'll probably get one some day.

I just can't see using a rifle of that size for the next class of animals though. There are certainly hunts that call for a medium bore rifle, ie 338 win mag or 375 H&H. The select few that can handle those rounds in a sub 7 pound rifle are few and far between. I'm not paticularly affected by recoil (maybe more than I think ) but I have no desire for that level of performance in a bantam weight rig.

I do think that the buying public has a good grasp of the market dynamics, and time will tell if the armchair experts are right or not.

Designing a cartridge doesn't have to be a multi thousand dollar hundreds of hours project. All most new rounds consist of is a different shaped case to hold the powder, a bit more or less than current rounds, with resulting velocities. No rocket science in that, or PHD's to devine what the results will be on game.

quote:

I do think that the buying public has a good grasp of the market dynamics, and time will tell if the armchair experts are right or not.

The "buying public" is nothing more than a majority vote. It has nothing to do with the true usefulness of a given round.

358 Winchester, perhaps the finest eastern woods cartridge ever concieved.

8mm Rem Mag, possibly the most versatile plains game round ever made.

284 Winchester, the most unique and one of the finest short action rounds ever made.

All rejected by the so called all knowing buying public and the list goes on and on. Those who reject them (which is their perrogative) are the armchair experts.

Anyone who thinks it doesnt cost anything to design a new cartridge is fooling only themselves. First there are the engineers, which the last time I checked were well over the minimum wage bracket. Somewhere along the line there must be a decision making process, (time is money). There is the tooling/manufacturing process and I dont think that they find that stuff at Wal-mart. Then there is testing, of corse those guys are just happy to be there though and probably live on food stamps.

Designing a new cartridge is not the black magic some make it out to be. You don’t need to break into Fort Knox to fund the project.

The 550 Mag I would guess didn't take $1500 to build the first one. The 600 OK which was a completely new case didn't take $3500 bucks for the first rifle. Now going into a production of a new case is a different story but the initial design is not expensive.

If people want a 325 then great, go get one. I simply don't see the need to have one. I also don't NEED 90% of the guns in my safe (ok 98%) but I have them because that's what I want and it's my money. I would certainly not pass on a good deal for one if it came along.

I simply think that the big manufacturers should invest in getting their quality up to snuff before spending their rescores on a new cartridge when there are suitable alternatives available.

I’ve got a safe full of guns that need to be fire-formed and that no factory ammo is available so I understand the wow factor of having something new or different. I’m simply sick of having to fix a new rifle every time I buy one and think the money could be better spent. JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by fritz454
I simply think that the big manufacturers should invest in getting their quality up to snuff before spending their rescores on a new cartridge when there are suitable alternatives available.

I’ve got a safe full of guns that need to be fire-formed and that no factory ammo is available so I understand the wow factor of having something new or different. I’m simply sick of having to fix a new rifle every time I buy one and think the money could be better spent. JMHO

I couldn't have said it better. Personally, I gave up on new guns a decade ago. Trying to support Winchester when the new classic model 70 came out I bought three, and all three needed work.

To make a long story short, I've only bought oldies since then. Why pay $600.00 for a classic model 70 when for $750.00 one can have a genuine pre-64 that will hold its value if you take care of it.

I'll stick with the 338 if I need something over 30 cal.

I agree with Allen Day's post.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
The last list of die sales finds the 300 WM slipping off the page. It's all fun however.

Really? You make it sound like it's number 99 on the list.

1 .30-06 SPRINGFIELD
2 .22-250 REMINGTON
3 .270 WINCHESTER
4 .45 ACP / G.A.P.
5 .300 WINCHESTER SHORT MAGNUM
6 7MM REMINGTON MAGNUM
7 .44 MAGNUM / .44 SPECIAL
8 .357 MAGNUM / .38 SPECIAL - ROLL CRIMP
9 .223 REMINGTON
10 .308 WINCHESTER
11 .204 RUGER
12 .243 WINCHESTER
13 .500 S&W
14 .270 WINCHESTER SHORT MAGNUM
15 .45-70 US GOVERNMENT
16 .300 WINCHESTER MAGNUM
17 .40 S&W / 10MM
18 9MM LUGER
19 .45 COLT
20 .30-30 WCF

Just repeat what Westrnhuntr said for me!

WStrnhunter-As a matter of fact my .30-06, 8mm magnum and .375 H&H all shoot at the velocities suggested in the Nosler manual. My friends 300 wsm did not. This was done last week using a Chronograph.

I think some of the WSM line are great cartridges, and others not so great. I think the .270 WSM may just be the best of all . I'm getting the velocity of a .270 Weatherby Mag with a whole lot less powder and recoil, and no belt to boot !! I own a .338 Mag and think the .325 is BS, at least some of the claimed velocities. The 7mm WSM may be ok, I'm just not that familiar with it, and the .300 WSM is ok, though it may be a bit shy on velocity from claimed. The .270 WSM will actually better factory velocities and give superb accuracy to boot. I'm so happy with mine that I sold my Rem. 700 in .270 Win.

I think that if the .325 WSM would have been invented first you would probably be saying that it was such a good cartridge that there was no justification for you to buy a newfangled .300 or .338 Winchester magnum.

22WRF-

Absolutely right, but this is not the case.

-Spencer

My buddy just got a lightwieght kimber in the 325 not too long ago. It has proven to be an excellent little package. Very light and a great shooter. Recoil can be a little stout but it is still a great combo for an all around alaskan gun, especially one your going to pack around a lot.

Winchester is follwing Remingtons lead with the 8mm magnum and will probably end up the same way. Look at the factory ammo they load for the 325. What a joke, not a single premium bullet with the appropriate SD. There are a lot of non handloaders out there and if you want them to buy your rifle you better offer some good ammo.

What fritz454 said and add that the constant ranting about the need for MAGNUMS is really making it hard for new comers to the sport. The 260, 204 and 17's are a pretty small bunch compared to all the mags we've seen shoveled at us.

Quote< 325 WSM redundant BS or needed niche cartrige? >Unquote

I think every shooter has to answer your actual question (above) for himself alone. I'd answer it with two other questions:

1. What gun(s) do you actually have in your rack(s) now?

2. What do you actually hunt that one of your current guns isn't as well suited for?

Don't think I'll ever own one, but I can't see any reason someone shouldn't if they like it or need it because it's not someone elses particular choice, or because they simply have a bias against metric calibers. Remember, it's still fairly new and it will take some time before bullet selection satisfies everyone. On the other hand, if it gets talked down to the point where no one buys it, ammo selection will suffer. Kind of reminds me of why the .41 Magnum has always struggled. It doesn't struggle with anything I use it for.

I agree with Bowhuntrrl, The .270 WSM seems to be one of the better ideas to come out of this pack.

No belt and more efficient burn column make many of these cartridges a good idea, regardless of action length arguments. The .30-06, .270 Win. and .243 Win. are not going to be phased out anytime soon, especially for non reloaders who buy rifles at Wal-Mart, so why get nervous?

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:
My buddy just got a lightwieght kimber in the 325 not too long ago. It has proven to be an excellent little package. Very light and a great shooter. Recoil can be a little stout but it is still a great combo for an all around alaskan gun, especially one your going to pack around a lot.

All around AK gun? Well, maybe when there is ammo for it in Alaska.

IMO the 325 is pointless. I think the great thing about the entire WSM line is the Kimber rifle. Back to the 325, what can it do that the 300 isn't already doing-with bullets of greater SD and BC. I agree with Paul H that the 300 WSM is a hot '06 in a 308 size case. I bought one because that is what the French Walnut stocked Kimber I fell in love with was chambered for.

I'm going to end up buying a 325 WSM sooner or later simply because I love 8mm's. I could give two hoots in hell about all the scientific evidence for/against it. I'll spend my money on it simply because I want one.

Frankly, I hope it catches on. Its about time we had a viable 8mm on the market. 8mm's are just as pratical as the hallowed 35 caliber, also a rather niche market caliber, and slightly more interesting to (to me) than the 30 caliber cartridges that everyone owns.

There's my $.02.

Tex

I think it is redundant but then again I think all of the WSM and WSSM and SAUM are redundant.